How long after use of PG/Prostaglandin...

[AndyPandy]

ON AVERAGE how long after use of PG/Prostaglandin do your mares come into season/start showing signs of being in season?

I know some members of the forum are not big fans of PG, and have had trouble using it to bring mares into season/estrus, so here's a little poll to see what results people seem to have with PG.

 

[Tempi]

Bloss was PG'd on a friday (single injection) i then took her back to the AI centre on the Tuesday, and she was 'inseminated' on the thursday. She took first time (with frozen aswell).

 

[PapaFrita]

Tried it with PF just as she went into stud. She came into season 4 days after injection, but when vet scanned her, wasn't happy with the follicle and delayed AI until she came into season naturally.
I don't know if there is a connection?

 

[AndyPandy]

I'm already surprised by how few people use the double microdose for PG'ing into season. One large dose can be very unpleasant and painful for the mare... sweating and colic-like symptoms are often seen shortly after the injection (due to smooth muscle contractions under the skin and in the uterus), but it can often lead to colic due to excessive water consumption.

Plus, with the microdoses, if you inject yourself, you can "PG" five mares for the price of one "large dose" of PG. A more humane and cost effective way to bring a mare into season! Do vets not offer it to you, or is there another reason?

 

[AndyPandy]

[ QUOTE ]
...when vet scanned her, wasn't happy with the follicle... I don't know if there is a connection?

[/ QUOTE ]

PG'ing is often done totally blind, but to be effective it must be done at the right stage in the mare's cycle. In this case, she probably had a mid-cycle active follicle present already when she was PG'd which will have messed up the maturation of that follicle. Just one of those things really! Could have been avoided with ultrasound before the PG, but probably not worth the extra cost and hassle in the long run especially if you were paying for a package deal.

 

[Tempi]

To be totally honest i just did what my vet said - im new to breeding and i trusted my vet totally as he is one of the top AI vets in the country. My mare had no symptoms like you have described, she just had a normal season. She is generally quite irregular and hard to tell when she is in season as she shows no signs, which is why she had the injection.

 

[AndyPandy]

[ QUOTE ]
...i trusted my vet totally as he is one of the top AI vets in the country. My mare had no symptoms like you have described, she just had a normal season...

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. It's interesting that "top AI vets" don't seem to know about PG microdoses, or don't use them if they do know about them.

Not every mare does have negative symptoms. My point would be that there is no sense in risking making the mare go through any discomfort when "better", and possibly more humane protocols are available.

 

[jomiln]

We generally use just 1 large dose but will ask my vet about the micro doses - again a vet with a good breeding knowledge - Jon Pycock

 

[KenRehill]

I'm interested in why PG is getting used. I understand cleaning a mare out after an ET flush. But thereafter, the justification starts to decline.

What I have found is that SOME (that means some, not all) vets in the UK are using PG to avoid inseminating at the weekend, even when they are using frozen semen. This practice smacks of laziness. The breeding season starts 1st January until 31st August, there are no weekends until the beginning of September, if a repro vet isn't prepared for that they shouldn't be repro vets, and perhaps mare owners should be looking at specialist vets for their inseminations.

 

[GreedyGuts]

I think that given the risks associated with exposure to PG, vets would be very reluctant to hand it out to owners.

 

[GreedyGuts]

Agree totally that this is bad practice if done to avoid inconveniencing the vet, particularly as natural oestrus is better than hormone induced, but I think it can be very useful from both a vets and owners perspective to short-cycle mares that don't hold/ are brought to stud having recently ovulated, particularly later in the season when time is running out.

 

[PapaFrita]

I think that's what happened; vet had me jab her before she went and then ultrasounded her when she arrived.

 

[Fahrenheit]

We use single dose PG...

Mainly when we let the mares run through their foaling heat we inject them back into season a week later to short cycle them to put them in foal, I have always done it, we picked it up from the stud 'I learnt my trade from' so to speak and its what all the vets I have used have done, also to short cycle a mare if we have missed her ovulation. The only other time we use it, is on the vets recommendation to do so, ie after he has scanned and thinks it may be useful to give a PG injection during the cycle and obviously when we bring a mare into season to use her as a jump/tease mare for collecting semen.

PG does have some undesireable side effects, profuse sweating is the most common

I have seen when using Estrumate, I use to prefer using Lutalyse myself because the side effects don't seem to be so extreme, although its not suppose to be as good as estrumate, we found it very reliable at bringing mares into season, but unfortunately since we moved my current vet doesn't supply lutalyse only estrumate

but after the mare has been injected we keep her in and monitor her reactions and deal with the side effects as required.

I use a highly reputable repro vet, probably one of the best in the country and I rely on him to make the decisions on whats the best methods to use and follow his instructions, at the end of the day he is the vet and he has the knowledge and all the available information to make the best decision on what the best procedures are for each individual mare, he is far from lazy, I can vouch for his willingness to inseminate at weekends after one of my mares decided that Sunday was the day and of course not being able to recieve semen through the post on a Sunday, I had to drive a few hundred miles each way to pick it up and he waited til I got there with it and we inseminated her just before midnight on a Sunday night

In answer to the OPs questions...

We use single dose PG and most mares show signs of starting to come into season 2-3 days after injecting, we find it a highly effective way of bringing mares into season but don't use PG totally blind, we do monitor mares seasons and know when they are due in and when they have been in season and also scan follicles regularly when working to put a mare in foal

 

[AndyPandy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested in why PG is getting used. I understand cleaning a mare out after an ET flush. But thereafter, the justification starts to decline.

What I have found is that SOME (that means some, not all) vets in the UK are using PG to avoid inseminating at the weekend, even when they are using frozen semen. This practice smacks of laziness.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is, of course, down to laziness in terms of insemination timing. The justified use of the microdoses of PG as far as I'm concerned is for brining teaser mares into season for the purposes of semen collection where an ovariectomised mare is not available, and the number of mares on a farm is relatively small.

PG is used so often by SO many repro vets, I think most breeders accept it as standard practise for getting a mare ready for breeding or AI. Most do not even understand how or why it works, and so use it blindly with no knowledge of the mares reproductive state at that particular time.

I asked just out of interest to see how much is used, and whether the "first signs of being in season" appear around the same time as the times quoted by manufacturers of lutalyse and similar drugs.

 

[Bounty]

Tills was single dose PG'd on the 24th May and was AI'd towards the end of her heat on the 30th. She took first time.

Single dose was all we were offered, and she did 'sweat profusely'

 

[appyjude]

One of ours was due to be AI'd in foaling heat - scanned the day after the birth and she had already ovulated

......ooops! Waited for next season which just didn't happen so scanned, injected (sweated) scanned 3 days later then she was AI'd with frozen and, hey presto, we are due on June 8th.

That is the other mare, not the one that Andy Pandy AI'd based on vet scan that turned out to be too late

, waited until next season, scanned and he drove (bless him) in rush hour traffic to my place to AI her

, which ended up being through a 5 bar gate as mare was not very happy about it all!!!

She is due same day as first mare, but has a history of early so will see. - Thank you AP.

xxx

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm already surprised by how few people use the double microdose for PG'ing into season. One large dose can be very unpleasant and painful for the mare... sweating and colic-like symptoms are often seen shortly after the injection (due to smooth muscle contractions under the skin and in the uterus), but it can often lead to colic due to excessive water consumption.

Plus, with the microdoses, if you inject yourself, you can "PG" five mares for the price of one "large dose" of PG. A more humane and cost effective way to bring a mare into season! Do vets not offer it to you, or is there another reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

I voted 4 days which is a reasonable average, although I have had them come in as soon as 2 days after - or wait a week! We always scan before PG'ing - no point bringing them on if there isn't a decent follicle there. And while a few mares DO sweat up, I've never had one exhibit even mild colic symptoms. Mind you, my vet does vary the dose depending on what he thinks they need - if they're coming quite close he'll give them a half dose, for example.

My vet isn't overly happy with leaving progesterone (although he will - with the usual dire warnings about accidental self-injection!

) But the cost of PG is relatively small in the scheme of things - the saving would barely cover the staff time in trekking the mares in from the field a second time.

 

[MissIndependance]

We inject ourselves and use the single dose an find they come into season between 4 and 6 days afterwards ...

Haven't heard about a double microdose - will ask vet about it - especially if it could be more cost effective!

 

[springfallstud]

[ QUOTE ]
What I have found is that SOME (that means some, not all) vets in the UK are using PG to avoid inseminating at the weekend, even when they are using frozen semen. This practice smacks of laziness. The breeding season starts 1st January until 31st August, there are no weekends until the beginning of September, if a repro vet isn't prepared for that they shouldn't be repro vets, and perhaps mare owners should be looking at specialist vets for their inseminations.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience my vet has PG'd the mares on a friday so that they will be ready for AI'ing mid weekish to allow time to for the semen to be ordered and shipped over from Germany, it is no good mare being ready on a sun/mon as the semen wont be there

 

[pocomoto]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm already surprised by how few people use the double microdose for PG'ing into season. One large dose can be very unpleasant and painful for the mare... "

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep 3rd time I used the single she was in a muck sweat when she got home (15 min journey) she became aggressive and tried to mince her 2yo daughter who she dotes on, so much so I had to distract her and take the daughter out for a few hours.
Funily enough I had taken the daughter along for the ride, I think she probably blamed her for the discomfort!!

She never took on the induced seasons so now I take her to stud early in the season (she's a TB and takes better early) and leave her to settle and come in naturally, it seems to work for her, yet others take in induced seasons go figure!

Are there any stats on fertility rates on PG induced seasons out of interest?

 

[ecs]

Have always used single dose, and found it very effective, natural is probably the best way, but not always an option, especially with a foal at foot when some mares do not cycle properly, i personally have never heard of micro dose, i would rather like to understand how it works as if you give too small a dose my understanding is it will not work, so does the smaller dose accumulate over a few days till you have enough to do the job?

 

[AndyPandy]

The principle of the microdose is that it more closely simulates the endogenous/natural release of prostaglandin in the mare. 1/10th of the standard dose is given over 2 days, and this has the same effect as one large dose without the possible negative side effects.

 

[Gingernags]

My mare was another like Tempi's - very quiet in her seasons and not showing at all. Stud jabbed her blind the first time - came in after 2-3 days and was covered but nothing from it.

She wouldn't come back into season so she was scanned by vet, had a decent follicle, so he jabbed her at the right time, in season 3 days later, covered 2 days after that and got her that time.

No sweating or colic symptoms at all.

 

[Eceni]

This is a long, long time since this post - but wondering if PG micro-doses are available in the UK and if so, what do we do to get them?