How long did it take have a consistent/correct outline in your horse (no gadgets)?

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CM.

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I don't want answers if you used draw reins, martingales, lunging equipment beyond very very loose side reins or anything that might fall under the gadget category.

But this is just a question of how long it took?

I am simply asking as I notice peoples having horses that need complete reschooling, or are coming back into work and in 8 weeks of intense gadget use; the horse goes round with their head tucked in...

I was planning in my head it will be a good two years before my mare is at that stage, but confused why onlookers expect her to change overnight.

Just interested in other people's thoughts and time scales when it's the correct work going in?

I mean a lot of dressage trainers take well over 10 years before the horse is ready to do canter pirouettes and other varying movements… So what’s wrong with spending a good few years on basic lateral work and getting the correct carriage?
 
Nearly 2 years and it is still a little less than consisitent during transitions through canter (the pace she finds the most difficult). She is not built in such a way as to make it easy, her attitude doesn't help enormously either, she is the first horse i have re-schooled and she had health niggles though out which meant time off - short version is without those niggles I'm sure you could get there sooner, but muscle memory and strength takes time to build regardless of how amenable and fast learning your horse is.

Worth noting that head in quickly is rarely working in an outline! Working powerfully forwards in a balanced manner is 'an outline' and takes time to produce.
 
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i dunno my instructor said that after a few weeks of working properly i should notice a difference in my 5 year old.....hopefully
 
What do you call consistent, or more to the point correct outline?
I would say that my horses generally go in the frame expected at their level of work pretty quickly, as in, probably within 6 weeks of backing, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are ''on the bit'' or ''engaged'' or anything like that, though.
 
Its a how long is a piece of string question really.

A newly backed 4 year old can carry itself in a relaxed outline, being soft to a very light contact with no gadgets or force required just a natural way of going.

Then this will develop as it gains strength and balance, year on year, if ridden correctly, until it is at the level it or its rider is able or wants to get to.

Reschooling is slightly different as the horse may have built up incorrect muscles which prevent it from working easily, this can take time to address as well as the mental issues it may have from the past. Each horse is different and so are the riders, steady progress will usually have a better long term result.
Go at the pace that works for you and your horse, the first steps are often slow but once the basics are established they can often then make more rapid progress as confidence and strength grow.
 
When I first started training with my instructor she said I would see a difference in six months. It's been about that now, but he's still not completely developed across his topline and still has moments of stiffness/hollowing. We we re training as well, not starting from scratch with a youngster.
 
Here in Spain, I've been lent a 7 year old to play with, We mainly do schooling work and do lots of circles and transition changes and after about 40/45 minutes he does start to move in an outline but I don't know where to go from there!
The owner only speaks Spanish and mines not good enough to ask for advice!
 
martlin said:
What do you call consistent, or more to the point correct outline?
I would say that my horses generally go in the frame expected at their level of work pretty quickly, as in, probably within 6 weeks of backing, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are ''on the bit'' or ''engaged'' or anything like that, though.
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Sorry I've not been too clear, just a nice prelim level where the hind end is actively engaged to follow through and over the back. I can't seem to find much research with regards to the overall muscle development and this... But I just wish wish wish the gadget lovers would see what they're doing to their horse.
 
I'd say a year for them to be consistently long & low, bar mad moments, as they have to develop the back muscles to support it before you can start raising the head. I'm not saying they can't work nicely before that, but for it to be truly consistent I think it takes that long, sometimes longer, if you want the type of basics that can later be the grounding for higher levels.
I do think sometimes people rush too much at first & imagine the horse is ready because its ok to do 2'3 courses, does ok unaffil prelim etc & then when they ask for more, the problems with the horses very basic way of going show up. Meaning that the bigger course, the collection/ extension, lateral work are all out of reach till you start over again.
I'm not for one minute saying there's anything wrong if that's all you want to do, but if you want to go further the basics have to be well established first.
 
CM. said:
Sorry I've not been too clear, just a nice prelim level where the hind end is actively engaged to follow through and over the back. I can't seem to find much research with regards to the overall muscle development and this... But I just wish wish wish the gadget lovers would see what they're doing to their horse.
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I would expect to be competing reasonably successfully at prelim level within 6 months, assuming that the horse is in general level headed and sane :)
That is with a freshly backed one, a re-schooled one might take longer or shorter or the same... not very committed to an answer, am I? :o :D
 
Erm, well she's now 19 and been under saddle since she was 4 and a bit. She is beautifully consistent except when she's in a mood; in season; a bird flies past; a dog barks; her boyfriend calls from the field; etc. etc. etc.

I blame the rider personally :D
 
Mine is always in a nice outline and I can play with he length of her neck no problem and flex right and left easy enough, and if i give and retake the reins she will maintain the same outline, I would say it took 18 months for her to become strong and balanced enough to be able to work so consistently.

I have never ridden her in any gadget and she is in a happy mouth snaffle but I lunge in side reins and lunge with draw reins over her back to encourage long and low.

I am not adverse to gadgets at all if used in he right fashion, some horses ridden without gadgets get a worse time from the rider yanking on the reins to force them onto the bit, IMO far better to have a steady constant so the rider can keep their hands still and stop pulling the back teeth out.
 
Oh when I got my boy he needed completely re schooling :D

Was one heck of a job... Overall it took about 6 months to get him from long and low to up and on his back end.... He's naturally very long and on his forehand but we got there eventaually ;)

His canter is so long and loping I could never get him in any sort of outline so used draw reigns once which ended in him learning to use his back and buck haha :o He was never a problem after that and would go round and soft in all paces before he was retired :p

There is hope for anyone if I managed with him haha
 
18 months!! That's how long it took him to develop the right muscles and strengthen up over his back and quarters. There is no quick fix and I really don't like gadgets. You can tell a horse that has had a gadget in seconds, they are never truly relaxed, soft and through in their movement. We still have a long way to go too even though his basic outline is there 99% of the time. I still cannot believe the little welsh cob who couldn't even trot in a straight line is now starting to school elementary level!! Its taken time but so well worth it!
 
it depends on the build and conformation of the horse really. I have ridden ones within weeks of being broken they were naturally working in an outline (not asked, just happened) and were consistent enough for a Prelim within months.

My girl came over from Ireland summer 2011, I bought her Oct 2011. She had done no schooling at all and could only go in a straight line. No lateral work, could hardly steer and cantering was ummmm.... interesting!! I took my time with her out first few months just hacking, lunging and gentle schooling not asking for outlone at all. then in the early summer it just came together. By the end of the summer in walk and trot she was going very well and consistent, but her canter was here and there and is only really becoming consistent now. I started lateral work from day one as I hacked about and tbh now I love it! She finds it really easy. :) She is not schooled as much as she should be, but I'm really trying to crack on now as I've just registered her with BD!

Oh never ridden her in ANY gadget. She is a big girl and if I'd done that I would have just pulled her down onto her forehand. I don't believe in shortcuts.
 
I'd say at least a year with my pony (who before I go him had only been jumped - never really schooled ! ) It took a year to get a nice outline in walk, and then another good few months to be able to work nicely in trot and canter.

I've recently bought a new pony who is just 5 this year - she is a little cob so we are taking everything super slow as I'm sure she is still growing. I'm hoping that this time next year we can start to work in a bit of an outline in walk - and that by the year after we might be able to do a semi decent dressage test.

I never use any gadgets either.
 
have just read this post with a relief actually!

had my lad 7 months and his only just beginning to relax from when I bought him shuffling along with his head tucked in with all his muscles in completely the wrong place from being side reined incorrectly. Just out of interest from those of you who don't use gadgets when you lunge what do you use and how do you encourage them to relax and put their noses down as this is a bit of a sticky point for us his still shuffling in trot!
 
I'm about 9 months in to retraining a horse who had been ridden in draw reins, market harbers, etc, and generally held together his whole life!
He was SO on the forehand he had almost no muscle on his back end, and worked 90% hollow.
I would say this has been 100% harder than just starting a youngster as I've had to start from scratch and re-teach everything!
I would say we are almost there although we still need to work on getting him more up unto the contact in a competition frame, rather than long and low. Aiming for elementary end of this year!
 
My 8y/o tb took about 2 months of work with me and my instructor before he would carry his head nicely. And a further 3 months until it was constant. He has a lovely trainable nature though.
But my 5y/o connie, I'm still 8 months down the line he's coming on but still far to go, being the typical cheeky pony!
I think it depends on the horse and it's attitude.
 
My horse that I had to have pts took 3 years before working in a consistent outline, tracking up and using his back end as the engine rather than his neck :D
In fairness to both me and my instructor he was bought on the cheap cause he was dangerous and would throw a temper tantram as soon as you looked at him :D
We occasionally put on a de-gouge or a bungee but it was worth all the tantrums and tears to get the final outcome.

My last horse on the advice on another instructor advised draw reins, hence buying my 1st pair in 20 years of having ponies horses. I thought I would give it a go as he was very experianced and the top of his game. I never had the same satisfaction with schooling this horse although I understand the instructors rationale for this particular horse needing them on for a period of time
 
asommerville said:
i dunno my instructor said that after a few weeks of working properly i should notice a difference in my 5 year old.....hopefully
Click to expand...
I have got my boy to take a contact and so on after ten sessions with my instructor {BHSII] riding him once a week,[only lunged on other days], we have now [yesterday] moved from a thick Neue Schule starter bit to a hanging baucher with lozenge, this has made him more controllable, which is not something he is used to [or likes], but he has been allowed to do his own thing for too long, as I only hack, and he has had very little formal schooling. He had three weeks in a school [pro rider] after he was backed and ridden out on estate roads.
I don't believe in side reins or draw reins, as the rider should be able to use their hands and seat to school the horse without gadgets.
He is lunged with two reins.
It is not just about contact, it is about the scales of training, balance and rhythm before canter pirouettes!
Having the contact means we can use his energy [impulsion] in a useful way, and having spent some two months working on going forwards, we have to ask him to work evenly on both reins, with a nice curve around the riders leg.
Part of his problem is attitude [not very willing], part is due to having his own way for too long [circumstances and lack of rider], part is due to lack of strength, only now at eight is he really strong in all department, other things have intervened to create his attitude problems, he really needs plenty of things to do, if he was out jumping clear rounds every week I think it would clear his mind.
So in answer to your question, no to gadgets, yes to consistent training with a top class instructor. And the horse has to enjoy it as well as the rider, something which can be forgotten if things are slow to develop.
 
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There was a brilliant video on here recently with a professional talking about schooling and how it takes at least a year for a horse (even those ridden by professional riders on a regular basis) to build top line and carry themselves correctly.
 
Ive been retraining mine for a year now and i guess we have a long and low outline about 60% of the time, he was extra nervous and tense though so have had top spend a lot of time jst getting him to relax...that was the hard bit.
 
Not long at all. Usually within the first ridden schooling session. I retrain ex racers and also reschool horses. I always lunge first for one to three weeks. I use a de gouge and a pessoa for lunge work, and side reins for horses that are more advanced in the schooling. But I never use gadgets for ridden schooling. Usually after warming up to get the horse going forward, and taking up a contact, I can have the horse going in a relatively consistent correct and light outline within a few minutes. This has not been something that I have always been able to do. In fact, I would say only the last twelve years of riding could I do this so quickly. One thing I hate with a passion is the method of holding the contact and pushing the horse into it. There should never bee a heavy feel in the rein. Horses should learn to carrry themselves from the beginning. The key is immediate split second release of pressure and anticipation of the horse evading and correcting BEFORE it does so. That way you never have a battle. Forwardness is essential before addressing the front end.
 
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