How long should horses be left with nothing to eat?

I'm no expert having always owned tb types up until recently - but I wonder if horses bodies react in the same way as humans when they get less food (ie starvation mode - body slows down and burns up less energy etc) ? I've always wondered how some horses can be on bare paddocks and have hardly any hay but still be a decent size - and wonder if they had access to more food of they would start to regulate their intake?

As I said I'm no expert at all but did buy my first cob this year and her weight is pretty good.
 
Have been struggling with my cobs weight for years, and I,m sure what you say is correct maxapple, even when I have cut him down to practically nothing (on vets advise), he still didn't lose weight. He must have been spending long periods with nothing in his system when I was feeding so little. Have finally got weight off him by keeping him in during the day and feeding him every 3 hours, HiFi lite diluted with plain straw chaff (luckily I live V close to yard, but its still a bit of a nightmare). Think that the constant supply of small amounts of food has helped to kick start his metabolism. He's out at night in a pen with very controlled access to grass and is ridden 4 - 5 times a week.
 
hollybear said:
Have been struggling with my cobs weight for years, and I,m sure what you say is correct maxapple, even when I have cut him down to practically nothing (on vets advise), he still didn't lose weight. He must have been spending long periods with nothing in his system when I was feeding so little. Have finally got weight off him by keeping him in during the day and feeding him every 3 hours, HiFi lite diluted with plain straw chaff (luckily I live V close to yard, but its still a bit of a nightmare). Think that the constant supply of small amounts of food has helped to kick start his metabolism. He's out at night in a pen with very controlled access to grass and is ridden 4 - 5 times a week.
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I have the same issue my little rescue cob mare as the other poster said puts on weight looking at green paint (loved that!) She is on happy hoof, hardly any grass and a trickle net but she is still a big lass and we have to manage her carefully. Might try straw chaff to bulk out any good brands??
 
Rose Folly said:
In summer the two fatties come in to the stable yard at 9 a.m., have a very small breakfast of hard food, and then have no access to food for 6 hours.
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Can I ask why you give a hard feed? If you didn't give the fatties those calories they could spend less time inside without forage.

maxapple said:
I'm no expert having always owned tb types up until recently - but I wonder if horses bodies react in the same way as humans when they get less food (ie starvation mode - body slows down and burns up less energy etc) ? I've always wondered how some horses can be on bare paddocks and have hardly any hay but still be a decent size - and wonder if they had access to more food of they would start to regulate their intake?

As I said I'm no expert at all but did buy my first cob this year and her weight is pretty good.
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I think you are right. IME horses whose access to forage is restricted just gorge as soon as they can. If they have constant access they do what they have evolved to do - trickle feed, which is better for them, all round.

ETS, Shivvy , I use plain Honeychop, it is just oat straw chopped up into chaff. My overweight horse got colic (fortunately mild) when given long straw to bulk out her ration, so she has to have this. I had to mix a tiny amount of dried grass into it at first to persuade her to eat it.
I am convinced that the reason she is so massive is that the people who owned her before me got her from a RS where she had obviously been in work, rode her much less and gave her quite a lot of hard feed. She still has a way to go but she has lost a noticeable amount of weight while with us, we monitor her weight weekly. They also kept her in a lot. She is out in all weathers with us, unrugged, which is also helping her to lose weight.
 
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I wouldn't leave mine without food.I do think what is happening in the human world is being mirrored by the horse world. Horses that have evolved to live on poor grazing (native/cob types) are being given hard food, good quality hay in abundance, kept in and rugged to the hilt. When I was a kid the only horses that got hard food were hunters. My pony lived on grass and fresh air. My shire x TB is 21, lives out all winter (rugged but fully clipped) has grass when out (no hay in the field) and comes in each day for a feed which is simple systems so forage based no 'hard feed' and a small amount of hay ( a net lasts 2-3 days).

This is her aged 20 in April last year having lived out through all the snow.
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This is the winter field so you can see there is lots of grazing. Five of them lived in this whole field.
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I know not everyone has this much grazing and I didn't used to but IMHO too many horses are overfed hard food for the way they are kept and worked. I used to have to keep her in as I rented 4 acres and it got very wet so they had no grass for about 4 months - just a small paddock that got trashed. I fed ad lib hay in small holed nets but very little hard food to her and my daughters two natives.
 
I very much agree with pearlsasingers posts. Whilst ideally they should never be without, some just can't have ad lib. However, unless under veterinary instruction, there's no need for any horse to go more than a few hours max. And that's coming from someone with experience of good doers & ponies either at high risk of lami or previous sufferers. No horse in my care has ever had health problems/lami from weight, neither has one gone for more than 3hrs without forage. Being overweight is a factor in lami, however its also what they eat, eg hard food, rich grass etc that effects it. And exercise. It's about good management, not long periods with no forage. Late cut hay, if necessary mixed with straw in quantities to last almost all night isn't going to cause lami alone. If however the horse spends its life on a postage stamp of dairy pasture or stood in, with too little exercise & hard feed then rich hay/haylage could be the last straw for its health. But really the bigger picture needs looking at imo. Horses, especially good doer natives were designed to have constant access to forage. What many forget is that they are also designed to have to exercise (i.e. roam) miles to find it, & they have evolved to eat very low quality rough forage, & lose weight over winter when forage has little value & requires more work to find. If long periods without food is your way of recreating that, then imo its management, not a greedy horse that's the issue. And incidentally never use nets either to slow them down. Exception is if on box rest, or horses that aren't good doers & won't eat much from floor after messing it up. Otherwise if a good doer mixes it up in their bed then foraging for it later keeps them as busy as a net.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Can I ask why you give a hard feed? If you didn't give the fatties those calories they could spend less time inside without forage.



I think you are right. IME horses whose access to forage is restricted just gorge as soon as they can. If they have constant access they do what they have evolved to do - trickle feed, which is better for them, all round.

ETS, Shivvy , I use plain Honeychop, it is just oat straw chopped up into chaff. My overweight horse got colic (fortunately mild) when given long straw to bulk out her ration, so she has to have this. I had to mix a tiny amount of dried grass into it at first to persuade her to eat it.
I am convinced that the reason she is so massive is that the people who owned her before me got her from a RS where she had obviously been in work, rode her much less and gave her quite a lot of hard feed. She still has a way to go but she has lost a noticeable amount of weight while with us, we monitor her weight weekly. They also kept her in a lot. She is out in all weathers with us, unrugged, which is also helping her to lose weight.
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Thanks I was worried about plain straw for same reason. Mine is unrugged too hopefully shivering off a few cals ;)
 
littlelegs said:
I very much agree with pearlsasingers posts. Whilst ideally they should never be without, some just can't have ad lib. However, unless under veterinary instruction, there's no need for any horse to go more than a few hours max. And that's coming from someone with experience of good doers & ponies either at high risk of lami or previous sufferers. No horse in my care has ever had health problems/lami from weight, neither has one gone for more than 3hrs without forage. Being overweight is a factor in lami, however its also what they eat, eg hard food, rich grass etc that effects it. And exercise. It's about good management, not long periods with no forage. Late cut hay, if necessary mixed with straw in quantities to last almost all night isn't going to cause lami alone. If however the horse spends its life on a postage stamp of dairy pasture or stood in, with too little exercise & hard feed then rich hay/haylage could be the last straw for its health. But really the bigger picture needs looking at imo. Horses, especially good doer natives were designed to have constant access to forage. What many forget is that they are also designed to have to exercise (i.e. roam) miles to find it, & they have evolved to eat very low quality rough forage, & lose weight over winter when forage has little value & requires more work to find. If long periods without food is your way of recreating that, then imo its management, not a greedy horse that's the issue. And incidentally never use nets either to slow them down. Exception is if on box rest, or horses that aren't good doers & won't eat much from floor after messing it up. Otherwise if a good doer mixes it up in their bed then foraging for it later keeps them as busy as a net.
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IMO the feed companies have a lot to answer for. They market muesli-type feeds aggressively, to appeal to inexperienced single horse owners, in particular, making them feel that if they are not feeding huge amounts of hard feed and multiple supplements, with sweetened licks, they are neglectful.
Some livery owners also are guilty of trying to maximise their profits at the expense of the well-being of their equine clients. My overweight Draft horse has been on old pasture all summer, no muzzle, no rugs, coming in to a feed of straw chaff each day for about 1/2 an hour and has *lost weight*.
I can't bear to see horses in tiny electric fenced paddocks of too-rich fertilised grass, more suited to dairy cattle.

Oh and I hate haynets! IMO they're only any use in a horse-box! Quite apart from the safety aspect, horses develop entirely the wrong muscles and end up with 'upside-down' necks from fighting to get forage out of nets. They should be eating off the floor, which also helps their sinuses to drain, thus avoiding another health problem.
 
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maxapple said:
I'm no expert having always owned tb types up until recently - but I wonder if horses bodies react in the same way as humans when they get less food (ie starvation mode - body slows down and burns up less energy etc) ? I've always wondered how some horses can be on bare paddocks and have hardly any hay but still be a decent size - and wonder if they had access to more food of they would start to regulate their intake?

As I said I'm no expert at all but did buy my first cob this year and her weight is pretty good.
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No they would not this ID I have was like an elephant when I bought him he had been on add lib hay and was hunting he is now 120 kilos lighter .
He's still a big looking horse he had all the health issues of obese horse except thankfully he shows no signs of having had lami , he had skin problems , his joints where puffy he was fearfully lazy he had Anhidrosis ( which he still has but is much improved ) I have had him tested for IR but the test is normal. His feet where struggling under the strain of his wieght he is now a much healthier horse but been very hard work to get him to this stage and it hard work to keep him slim I have him coming into this hunting season the same or a bit slimmer than he came out of the last one hopefully by next spring he will be a slim horse.
He would eat him self to death if we let him.
Exercise is key if reduce food and keep them moving then they will lose it it takes time it's taken over two years to get him to this stage.
I am another huge fan of honeychop chopped straw it's fantastic.
 
Mine always has enough haulage to ensure she has left over in the morning. In the depths of winter that is an eyewatering quantity, but it isn't good for her mentally of physically to be without food. If she got too fat her feed would be cut, then her exercise increased, then I'd try to slow her I.take with double netting, then reduce the calories by soaking hay or swapping for straw. Unfortunately this hasn't been an issue yet and she is still going through haynets that are bigger than she is!
 
Agree re feed. Mine gets a very token gesture of hifi lite cos she's spoilt & got in the habit when in heavy work. But even at 23, working 6 days a week she doesn't need feed. I find it shocking though the amount of feed she supposedly needs according to the companies. And haynets- overnight for a fatty on box rest, travelling, & a handful of very picky poor doers who wouldn't eat once they'd mixed it up. Even then, if it was one of mine I'd rig something permanent up to allow low level forage. And don't get me started on idiots who feed rich forage all winter, turn pony out on a patch of lush pasture in spring, don't work them enough, then keep it shut in without forage for hours all summer. Whilst saying 'he gets fat on thin air, I only feed a scoop of this & a scoop of that'. Then start the same again the following winter.
 
My tb when he was stabled used to get about half a bale of hay overnight in winter, my aim was to make sure he had never run out by the morning.

With my NF mare, when she was in pre-show last weekend I gave her three flakes of hay in a small holled net and she ate two flakes (shavings bed).

I am clearly bless with clever weight watching horses! :D
 
Dizzle said:
My tb when he was stabled used to get about half a bale of hay overnight in winter, my aim was to make sure he had never run out by the morning.

With my NF mare, when she was in pre-show last weekend I gave her three flakes of hay in a small holled net and she ate two flakes (shavings bed).

I am clearly bless with clever weight watching horses! :D
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I bet yours have never wondered where their next meal was coming from.

I have had 2 in the past (TBxWelsh & Clydie) who had both been kept short of food/not fed in a routine, who both gorged when we first got them. The Welshx was very proud of her food, including hay, as well. When they realised that there would always be plenty available, they calmed down, ate more slowly and generally became more relaxed about their food. The Welshx would bring me a mouthful of hay at the beginning of each winter to show me and share after a few years.
 
I always wonder this but it is hard.

On weeknights after I've ridden mine normally gets put to bed about 7.30-7.45pm. He has one big haynet, a trickle net. It is nearly always eaten by the morning. I soak his hay for 24 hours too. In the winter he will get 2 x trickle nets soaked.

Not sure trickle net really works tbh, he always finishes it, will have to take a wander down one night about 10-11 o clock and see how far through it he is. He is such a pig though and no doubt it's demolished within a few hours.

I was always one of the last ones up at the yard on my old yard (used to leave about 8.30-8.45pm) and I too felt sad to see some horses had finished all their hay by about 6.30pm and obviously were then left all night with nothing, however for a lot of people constant forage is hard to do, especially in winter.
 
My cob used to come in about 4 pm and go out about 9 am. He had 8lb of hay/cut with straw which only used to last a few hours, but he was fatter coming out of the winter than going in!
 
No more than a 4 hour gap as the horses digestion system will start to break down and the acids will start to increase thus causing dietry problems such as ulcers.

Real culprits of this scenario is livery yard owners offering full/part livery on a budget as they only put 1 net in to last all night, this is totally not acceptable and will cause damage to your horrse.

Ad lib hay should be available as the horse is designed to graze for around 18 - 20 hours a day.

My horses are all calm, sensible fit and happy and recieve ad lib hay when ever stabled.

Yes it costs money but if you cant afford to feed them properly you should not have them.
 
My pony is on box rest at the moment and on ad lib hay (included as part of the full livery deal at the rehab yard)

I presumed he would just stuff himself and eat about a bale a day, he normally lives out and is very greedy for hay if he comes in for a bit during the day and he will eat a slice of hay in 20 minutes. However now he is on box rest with ad lib hay he does seem to reach a saturation point and it is a lot less than I thought it would be. So just because he might eat one slice in 20 minutes it does not mean he would eat 3 slices in an hour and having more hay available has slowed down the speed at which he eats as well.
 
I don't stable horses generally, they are brought in at night to yards and buildings to which they have free access. No grazing at night though, therefore ad lib hay through the night. Leaving them without access to hay/haylage wil lead to physical problems like ulcers, and vices.
 
Well, there's theory, and then there's practice. Yes, horses are constant grazers, but some horses are also piggies and will stuff themselves until they burst if given ad-lib anything. Having gone from young, growing warmbloods to mature Friesian and Spanish/PRE good doers I have had to radically change the way I feed - or I would have ELEPHANTS! (And indeed did have for a short while). They get weighed hay rations, soaked, nice straw beds to snack on as required, managed/topped pasture, a rigourous work schedule, and NOTHING ELSE. This may mean that they are without forage for some periods, but we have never had a horse with ulcers/laminitis/behavioural problems yet.
 
That's interesting Cortez, I've looked around quite a few Spanish and Portuguese stable yards and the quality of forage appears quite different to what we're used to, more straw like than grassy.
Perhaps Iberian horses benefit from lower feed value forage. Perhaps their digestive system is slightly different.
I agree that they do easily put on weight. A couple of imports nearby, certainly are twice the size they were when they arrived 18 mths ago.
 
Pale Rider said:
That's interesting Cortez, I've looked around quite a few Spanish and Portuguese stable yards and the quality of forage appears quite different to what we're used to, more straw like than grassy.
Perhaps Iberian horses benefit from lower feed value forage. Perhaps their digestive system is slightly different.
I agree that they do easily put on weight. A couple of imports nearby, certainly are twice the size they were when they arrived 18 mths ago.
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Very interesting thread, during the day my boy has free range of 30 acres however I put him in to a large paddock which he has stripped at about 8pm with a good amount of hay but never know exactly how long it lasts :(
I am going to have to re think how I am going to control his paddock food so he always has some thing to eat. I don't like the idea of nets out side I feel they could be dangerous.

As for horses in spain its my understanding that hay is not plentiful and they get a lot more alfalfa and straw :eek:
 
Bree is out at night, but during the day they feed her a set amount of hayledge at intervals. I didn't like the fact that she didn't have continual access to forage when I went there, but all of the horses in the (mostly private) yard look absolutely wonderful. She needed to slim down a little so I have decided to accept that they know what they are doing.

Paula
 
Well!! glad i started this thread, lots of interesting ideas. I know its a very difficult one, I am at a yard with very good grazing, so mine comes in during the day will turn this around at the end of September so he will be in at night. He has a slice of hay in a haybar and a few nuts with carrots etc. and he is on shavings, he is not being ridden at the moment as he is injured. On reading all the advice on here, I am thinking - go back to straw, more hay but soaked for 24 hours in a trickle net, and a handful of honey chop so he gets a little feed. The hay is provided by the YO and the quality is good for most of the year, but tails off when we get low. Was feeding haylage for a while but the bales were not lasting, i feel that the consensus of opinion is that its the fibre thats important and not neccessarily the feeding content. Hay soaked for twenty four hours wont have feed value, but it will provide fibre, am i making sense?! Any more opinions on this?
 
ImmyS said:
In my opinion horses should always always have access to some kind of forage! Long periods without food is what causes so many health issues as the long period of no food is disruptive and also causes the horse to gorge when food is available again causing problems! Horses regulate their own food intake, trickle feeding thought out the day, it's what's natural for them!
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This IMO. Would never ever leave a horse intentionally without any food.
 
I know some1 close to home who only feeds they're horse when it suits them! Sometimes every other day and just hay chucked on the floor! The water trug is under a tap and is often empty! Luckily I'm there 2 always give it hay and water as its on our yard! I've seen the person bring a horse in starved and leave it for us to feed as they don't care at all! I had to take matters into my on hand on the qt as they are kind of related! People shouldn't have horses if they can't look after them! This person really doesn't care! All my horses want for nothing! All hay nets and feed to suit they're job, weight and height! Sorry needed abit of a rant and this thread brought it out of me!
 
Pale Rider said:
That's interesting Cortez, I've looked around quite a few Spanish and Portuguese stable yards and the quality of forage appears quite different to what we're used to, more straw like than grassy.
Perhaps Iberian horses benefit from lower feed value forage. Perhaps their digestive system is slightly different.
I agree that they do easily put on weight. A couple of imports nearby, certainly are twice the size they were when they arrived 18 mths ago.
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In Spain horses are mostly fed a very stemmy, almost straw-like hay as a base ration, with pure alfalfa (not mucked about with oil or molasses) and maybe some (often quite a lot!) whole oats. The mares and foals usually go out in the spring onto irrigated pasture or seeded alfalfa fields. It is VERY different to how English horses are managed, yet the horses look well in general, and I don't think there is any greater incidence of colic/ulcers/whatever. I do know that an awful lot of PRE horses in the UK are ENORMOUS, and suffer a very high incidence of sweetitch and other allergic skin reactions.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
My thought is that you could give more than a handful of straw chaff, so that he can pick at it if/when he finishes his haynet.
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This what I do if my fatty is left for long periods I give a big bowl of honey chop straight chopped straw he does not gorge on it but it's clear he eats it if he feels the need not because it's nice to eat.
Interestly my TB loves it and thinks its a treat !!!
 
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