How much do horses change between 4 and 5? Struggling with my youngster

[KEK]

So, I did the thing every one says you shouldn't (with good reason!) and bought a youngster for my 1st horse. 3yo Connie, just backed. I knew it was a risk and thought we might be ok if I got lots of professional help. And we have, he has been schooled twice/week by my showjumping neighbour, she has taken him to a couple of shows etc. I have been attempting to hack him, and been getting on him at the end of his schooling sessions. But he makes me nervous. He used to buck going into canter, he's dumped me a few times on our hacks. My (experienced) friend rode him yesterday on our hack and he was a real handful (in fairness he has been on holidays for a month). She managed him fine but it didn't look fun.
I decided to leave him to my instructor for the next 12m and found myself a lease horse. He's lovely, hacks along on the buckle, nothing seems to phase him, fun in the school. My instructors comment was "wow, you look so much more relaxed on him, you look like a board on the pony!" I am definitely enjoying riding much more on him.
The plan was for my instructor to ride the pony for the next 12m, and then for me to get back on. But- how much is he likely to change in that time? I have zero probs paying the 5k for the years training if I'm going to get the benefit at the end, but not so keen on paying that if I need to then sell him. Would rather put that money to lessons for me..
TIA for any thoughts!

 

[ihatework]

Much will depend on if the pony is fundamentally an easy temperament but just green, or whether he is a sparky chap by nature.

It will also depend on if your trainer really understands she is training him to make him a horse for you, or if she just trains him to make him something she enjoys.

It’s all a gamble. If you have lost confidence on him I’d probably sell

 

[Michen]

i had similar with Boggle. I handed him to a pro BUT I also still rode him. He stopped the explosiveness and for the most part his incredibly sharp spin and sideways teleport. I now trust him unconditionally but he’s not for the faint hearted. He can make you feel like he’s genuinely about to completely bury you, but after 3 years of him I now know it’s nearly always a load of hot air and his antics don’t remotely worry me.

I am not sure we would have come out the other side if I hadn’t continued riding him also, as although the pro support was a godsend I was also building my confidence on him bit by bit riding him throughout the duration but setting us up for success.

He may never be straightforward. I’d continue riding him as well as the pro and see how you feel in a few months. Only ride him in situations for now where you are likely to succeed...

It can be done. I remember breaking down in tears at the thought of mounting him. I now ride him quite often (in the school) with no tack

 

[be positive]

Much will depend on if the pony is fundamentally an easy temperament but just green, or whether he is a sparky chap by nature.

It will also depend on if your trainer really understands she is training him to make him a horse for you, or if she just trains him to make him something she enjoys.

It’s all a gamble. If you have lost confidence on him I’d probably sell

Pretty much my thoughts, a lot of trainers forget to look at the job the horse is being produced for and set them up how they want them not for the owner, it may well be she is encouraging the sparky side and not the quieter side of his nature, she should be hacking regularly if that is to be his primary job for you but that may not appeal to her as much as getting him going well on the flat and cracking on with the jumping if she is a SJ at heart.

 

[ycbm]

My experience is that they usually get more sparky between 4 and 5 as they get stronger physically and mentally, then more settled at six onwards.

I would sell.

 

[Red-1]

I too have found that between 4 and 5 they can be more sparky, they feel stronger. At 6, they calm down.

It is only a decision for you to make.

Can you keep the horse you have long term? If so, I would sell as you now have one you like. If not, I would keep until spring, let the pro keep him going but prepping for sale, with hacking too. Then make a more informed decision. Depths of winter is not the time for big decisions IME.

 

[honetpot]

Connemara's can be tricky. I have an old pony, talented, who will dump people if they ask too much, and looking at his passport he has been though a lot of homes.
I am also worried that the pro will produce a pony you can not ride, it will be more balanced, more off the leg, and have a fifth leg to do gymnastics, and be fit. In my experience giving ponies extra work doesn't really work, it makes them fitter and more capable, it's working out what is the trigger, keeping their mind busy, and the rider learning how to avoid situations and making them more confident that they can cope that works long term.

 

[milliepops]

Can you keep the horse you have long term? If so, I would sell as you now have one you like. If not, I would keep until spring, let the pro keep him going but prepping for sale, with hacking too. Then make a more informed decision. Depths of winter is not the time for big decisions IME.

IIRC OP is in Australia

 

[Red-1]

IIRC OP is in Australia

Ah, I didn't realise. I would still keep the one that she/he has if possible, for long term, and then the other one wouldn't be necessary. Win/win!

 

[Michen]

Just with regards to pros getting the pony more off the leg and fitter etc. It CAN be a positive thing. Although Boggle was always very forward, he wasn’t off my leg, but getting him so made it much easier to prevent and stop a spin or explosion.

Similarity, his behaviour improved the more he did. He was a horse that needed a job, the more he was challenged the more he behaved and as he was exposed to exciting situations (carefully), everything else then became less of an issue.

So it can work well, but I do think it needs to be done “with” you. And be prepared to always have a sharp pony, you may just find that his sharpness doesn’t bother you anymore as you grow together.

 

[Orangehorse]

I think that no matter how experienced you are with young horses, you also need Mr. Old Faithful to get on and relax and enjoy riding, one who knows what the aids are and is unlikely to take fright at a random something and who doesn't need the rules explaining every day. Just having a youngster to ride is enough to put anyone off.

Connies can be top class competition ponies, eager to gallop and jump and get on with the job. So even after he is schooled to perfection, he might still be that strong chap who wants to go. On the other hand, he might turn out to be your perfect horse. I would give him a bit more time, continue to ride him so you get more confident on him and have another think in a few months time, while continuing to ride the other horse.

 

[DabDab]

The thing I've always found with smart Connemaras (and a lot of natives in general), is that they like work and having a job, but the enjoyment they derive from it is all about getting right answer. Whereas a lot of smart horses tend to derive contentment from the process of learning itself.

So the 4-5yo stage can be a bit interesting with a Connie as they suddenly start unilaterally deciding what the right answer is to a lot of questions. You have to be really consistent about getting them on your aids and reinforcing the message that they have to listen to you. With that in mind I think a pro could work well because they can help with that reinforcement message, but you as the main rider would have to be prepared to carry it on even after they have become a bit more established.

As others have suggested, staying involved over the next few months and then seeing how you feel, while enjoying the other horse is probably your best way forwards. I definitely wouldn't turn him over to a pro for a whole year and then risk that you still won't really enjoy the result at the end of it.

 

[Wishfilly]

I agree with others that you not riding the pony for the next 12 months is probably not the answer.

I don't know what horse prices are like where you are, but here, for £5k, you could buy a sane, sensible pony to hack (probably not a connie, admitedly), which you could enjoy yourself with- whereas with the £5k spent, you may still have a horse you don't love riding.

I think the 12 months schooling might work better if you are still able to get on regularly? As that way you can continually reassess and see if it is working?

Do you like your pony on the ground? That would factor into the decision for me, although it might not for you.

 

[Upthecreek]

Generally this type of horse is not suitable for a first horse for a nervous rider. Someone that is tense and holding on tight just exacerbates the problem. You need to be able to sit still and quiet, give clear and consistent instructions and react quickly to undesirable behaviour (ideally without falling off). If you can’t do those things I would really ask yourself honestly if this horse is for you. You can end up spending a lot of time and money on a horse that still makes you nervous and you don’t enjoy riding. If you do intend to do that you 100% need to keep riding him as well as whoever is training him.

 

[KEK]

Thank you all very much for your replies, I really appreciate them.
Yes, I'm in Australia. It's still the off season here, though, it's baking hot.
Lease horse could be for sale, she said that she wouldn't turn away the perfect home.
I thought that I wasn't enjoying riding because of pain issues, but I have loved the 4 times I've ridden him so wondering if it was more worry over the ponies behaviour..
Yes, I could continue to ride him at the end of his lessons as I have. Pro hasn't hacked him yet, although I think she would if I asked. My friend has also said she will come and ride him again.
On the ground he's ok when he's in work, bit less trustworthy when he's not. He double barreled at me when I turned him out without putting his fly veil on, then went to try and put it on him, after the hack the other day, and he's done that before. He's friendly and very into people and scratches, but quite bossy.

 

[oldie48]

If you decide to go ahead with the pro bringing the connie on for the next year, I'm another who feels you should stay involved and keep assessing the situation. A pro will almost certainly ask more of the connie than you will, that may result in a few tantrums but you may find that ridden by you and asked fewer questions, he might behave differently. I also think a horse that is correctly brought on becomes easier not more difficult to ride unless there's a real issue with temperament. They are all different obviously but our experience with a connie and a connie x tb was they were more of a handful as a five year old but easier at six. TBH I didn't enjoy either of them when they were youngsters as they were quite reactive, whereas my daughter wasn't at all phased by their antics but I'd happily ride both when they were older.

 

[shamrock2021]

I pretty sure they get worse at 5 and 6 .

 

[Wishfilly]

Thank you all very much for your replies, I really appreciate them.
Yes, I'm in Australia. It's still the off season here, though, it's baking hot.
Lease horse could be for sale, she said that she wouldn't turn away the perfect home.
I thought that I wasn't enjoying riding because of pain issues, but I have loved the 4 times I've ridden him so wondering if it was more worry over the ponies behaviour..
Yes, I could continue to ride him at the end of his lessons as I have. Pro hasn't hacked him yet, although I think she would if I asked. My friend has also said she will come and ride him again.
On the ground he's ok when he's in work, bit less trustworthy when he's not. He double barreled at me when I turned him out without putting his fly veil on, then went to try and put it on him, after the hack the other day, and he's done that before. He's friendly and very into people and scratches, but quite bossy.

If you've only ridden the lease horse 4 times so far, I would keep going with that for a bit longer before making decisions. If you are tense when riding the pony, then that could be increasing any pain when you ride?

From a personal point of view, if I had a pony that I was nervous riding, and had also kicked out more than once when being handled, I would be seriously thinking about selling. That's not to say I think you should sell- but I just don't know if I would want to keep a pony that wasn't great to ride or in hand, even if all the problems were solvable.

How much enjoyment do you feel you get out of owning him?

 

[KEK]

If you've only ridden the lease horse 4 times so far, I would keep going with that for a bit longer before making decisions. If you are tense when riding the pony, then that could be increasing any pain when you ride?

From a personal point of view, if I had a pony that I was nervous riding, and had also kicked out more than once when being handled, I would be seriously thinking about selling. That's not to say I think you should sell- but I just don't know if I would want to keep a pony that wasn't great to ride or in hand, even if all the problems were solvable.

How much enjoyment do you feel you get out of owning him?

Yep, definitely need to ride him longer. Pony needs to come back into work, anyway, so would be a few weeks away. Yes, quite possibly that could be making a difference in the pain. Its interesring, I dont really feel like Ive bonded with him much, although i was comparing it to my feelings for the dogs, so again I thought that might be unfair. I was enjoying watching him progress in his training, and at shows (being an owner, I guess), but that wasnt really the idea of getting the horses. I enjoyed hacking lease horse out with my OH more. I'm irritated at myself because I never used to be a nervous rider at all, but then I've never ridden youngsters before.

 

[Wishfilly]

Yep, definitely need to ride him longer. Pony needs to come back into work, anyway, so would be a few weeks away. Yes, quite possibly that could be making a difference in the pain. Its interesring, I dont really feel like Ive bonded with him much, although i was comparing it to my feelings for the dogs, so again I thought that might be unfair. I was enjoying watching him progress in his training, and at shows (being an owner, I guess), but that wasnt really the idea of getting the horses. I enjoyed hacking lease horse out with my OH more. I'm irritated at myself because I never used to be a nervous rider at all, but then I've never ridden youngsters before.

I find, if you don't click with a horse, it can impact your confidence? I don't think you should be annoyed with yourself for getting nervous, because it sounds like you have had negative experiences with him, and getting nervous is a natural reaction to those experiences. He sounds quirky, for want of a better word, and I think it can be very hard just having one quirky horse to ride!

I've never owned a youngster, but I have ridden and handled green horses and youngsters in the past, and I would gently say that they are not all like this. In my experience (which isn't super extensive), although a lot of young horses go through a "teenaged" stage, you can see the personality in the horse all the way through. The horse I know who was easy and straightforward to handle as a 2yo is easy and straightforward now he is 9. And the one who was sharp and kicked out at 2/3 is still sharper now and not straighforward at 9. Both were bred by the same person and brought up in the same set up, btw.

Obviously some quirks are to be expected with youngsters, and many do go through a teenager stage at 5/6, but I would be wary of keeping going for years with a horse who you don't really "click" with as I don't think their personalities ever completely change (although obviously good schooling can make a huge difference).

 

[Nudibranch]

I love youngsters but equally if you love riding your loan horse and have the opportunity to buy him, I'd sell. Over here at least there's a good market for Connies. Having a horse you click with is priceless and sometimes youngsters don't have the same interests or talents as us. And they generally do go through a challenging stage around 5. Even my sensible Dales is doing it at the moment. Sometimes there just isn't that connection. Absolutely nothing wrong with selling him on to someone else and putting your time, money and energy into a horse you enjoy. It's not as if he's half lame, elderly or full of veterinary issues so you don't owe him his forever home.

 

[Parrotperson]

ok. I think I'd be inclined to make an offer on your loan as you're obviously the perfect home the owner is looking for and get the Pro to sell your youngster as a going concern. I think you'd be happier and it is about you having fun. And its not fun having the worry of this. But ultimately your decision obviously. Good luck

 

[Accidental Eventer]

It is about having fun, and the first horse being fun is fairly critical. Tricky horses can be fun with confidence and experience but from my personal experience being confident and enjoying horses is the most important thing. There is no shame in moving on from a horse who isn't right. he may well be the right one one day, but equally you could always have it in the back of your mind the early days where things weren't going to plan, which will effect how you ride and feel about him and your confidence with him.

i have always found lessons help me with confidence so if you did want to persist with the pony, finding a coach who could help with your confidence would be massively beneficial. I think to continue on with him you do need to keep riding him under guidance of a pro.

At the end of the day it depends what you want in a horse. It sounds like the lease horse is more suited to you right now, and it's the right now that matters most.

 

[KEK]

It is about having fun, and the first horse being fun is fairly critical. Tricky horses can be fun with confidence and experience but from my personal experience being confident and enjoying horses is the most important thing. There is no shame in moving on from a horse who isn't right. he may well be the right one one day, but equally you could always have it in the back of your mind the early days where things weren't going to plan, which will effect how you ride and feel about him and your confidence with him.

i have always found lessons help me with confidence so if you did want to persist with the pony, finding a coach who could help with your confidence would be massively beneficial. I think to continue on with him you do need to keep riding him under guidance of a pro.

At the end of the day it depends what you want in a horse. It sounds like the lease horse is more suited to you right now, and it's the right now that matters most.

Yes, you are right. I think he is too much for me right now, and waiting 2 yrs is quite a long time for something that may/may not come right (for me, he goes very nicely for her!)
I think I will get her to start bringing him back into work with the idea of selling in a few weeks, will also give me more time with lease horse. Thanks very much for all replies ?

 

[Northern]

Oh KEK, sorry you are having issues. It's scary to fall off out hacking, no one ever wants that.

I think it was clear from your posts early on that you may have overhorsed yourself a bit with him. A freshly broken youngster of any breed requires a confident rider to teach them to be solid horsey citizens. No judgement from me in observing this, it's no fun for either of you if it isn't working and you are continually on the lookout for the next move he might pull on you. In my experience, horses (especially ponies!) become very sparky and testing between 5-7 years old and can pull some questionable moves. As I see it, you have two options:

The first is to keep him in professional training for the next while, until he has been brought along enough for you to ride confidently. As others have alluded to though, this will mould him into a horse for the professional to ride and not necessarily the horse you need. You give the impression that you would rather a nice low level allrounder to have fun with, as opposed to a refined competition horse. If you take this option, it would mean that you would have to really work on yourself at the same time, lots of lessons on him and schoolmasters to hone your skills. There's no point having him in training and not furthering your own riding to match. There will be a lot of time and cost involved for you, are you sure you want to do that?

The second option (and one I recommend), is to sell him on. The market is hot right now and Connemaras especially are selling instantly. I would send him to the pro for a few weeks intense riding and advertise him, it will give him the best chance of a well matched home. You would also be in a position to be picky about who takes him, always an advantage because you clearly care about him.

If you are comfortable and happy on the leased TB, I would approach the owner with an offer to buy him. You have had the advantage of having him at home and trying him out. There's no reason you can't continue lessons on him and go out to some shows (when they are back to normal!) or long trails. Confidence is such a fragile thing, and it sounds to me if you continue riding your pony you won't be motivated at all to continue working with him. As AE said above, it's an expensive sport and you should be having fun rather than dreading riding. I must say you have been very sensible and to send him to be ridden by someone else when you were having problems was a really great decision to make, this has given him an appropriate start to his riding life and saved your confidence going down the drain!

Good luck with whatever you decide

 

[KEK]

Oh KEK, sorry you are having issues. It's scary to fall off out hacking, no one ever wants that.

I think it was clear from your posts early on that you may have overhorsed yourself a bit with him. A freshly broken youngster of any breed requires a confident rider to teach them to be solid horsey citizens. No judgement from me in observing this, it's no fun for either of you if it isn't working and you are continually on the lookout for the next move he might pull on you. In my experience, horses (especially ponies!) become very sparky and testing between 5-7 years old and can pull some questionable moves. As I see it, you have two options:

The first is to keep him in professional training for the next while, until he has been brought along enough for you to ride confidently. As others have alluded to though, this will mould him into a horse for the professional to ride and not necessarily the horse you need. You give the impression that you would rather a nice low level allrounder to have fun with, as opposed to a refined competition horse. If you take this option, it would mean that you would have to really work on yourself at the same time, lots of lessons on him and schoolmasters to hone your skills. There's no point having him in training and not furthering your own riding to match. There will be a lot of time and cost involved for you, are you sure you want to do that?

The second option (and one I recommend), is to sell him on. The market is hot right now and Connemaras especially are selling instantly. I would send him to the pro for a few weeks intense riding and advertise him, it will give him the best chance of a well matched home. You would also be in a position to be picky about who takes him, always an advantage because you clearly care about him.

If you are comfortable and happy on the leased TB, I would approach the owner with an offer to buy him. You have had the advantage of having him at home and trying him out. There's no reason you can't continue lessons on him and go out to some shows (when they are back to normal!) or long trails. Confidence is such a fragile thing, and it sounds to me if you continue riding your pony you won't be motivated at all to continue working with him. As AE said above, it's an expensive sport and you should be having fun rather than dreading riding. I must say you have been very sensible and to send him to be ridden by someone else when you were having problems was a really great decision to make, this has given him an appropriate start to his riding life and saved your confidence going down the drain!

Good luck with whatever you decide

That’s such a nice post, Northern, thank you ?
You are spot on in your assessment with everything. Horses are supposed to be “for fun”, esp as I do so much high level competing with the dogs. I was very silly, just really wanted a Connie and thought with enough professional help we might be ok.
The potential home is very, very important to me. I’ve never moved an animal on and my husband is still refusing to entertain the idea.. I’ve got some work to do there!

 

[maya2008]

I would also say to sell.

 

[Wishfilly]

That’s such a nice post, Northern, thank you ?
You are spot on in your assessment with everything. Horses are supposed to be “for fun”, esp as I do so much high level competing with the dogs. I was very silly, just really wanted a Connie and thought with enough professional help we might be ok.
The potential home is very, very important to me. I’ve never moved an animal on and my husband is still refusing to entertain the idea.. I’ve got some work to do there!

I don't really know how leasing/loaning works in Australia, but if your husband is adamantly against selling, would that be an option? There are definitely people in the UK who would be happy to loan a young talented horse and you could retain a level of control that wouldn't be possible with selling?

You could also ask that the owner get in touch with you if they ever can't keep the horse for any reason? This wouldn't have any legal standing in the UK, but might give your husband some peace of mind?

 

[KEK]

I would also say to sell.

I don't really know how leasing/loaning works in Australia, but if your husband is adamantly against selling, would that be an option? There are definitely people in the UK who would be happy to loan a young talented horse and you could retain a level of control that wouldn't be possible with selling?

You could also ask that the owner get in touch with you if they ever can't keep the horse for any reason? This wouldn't have any legal standing in the UK, but might give your husband some peace of mind?

Both good ideas, thanks Wishfilly! I will have a chat with instructor tomorrow and see what she says. Definitely like the let us know if they couldn't keep the horse, that's easy (whether they would is another story). I will have a think about the leasing idea as I genuinely hadn't thought of it, goodness knows why as we have 2 here on lease!
I guess the downsides of leasing might be if his level of training/behaviour went down and having to fix that /pay for it to be fixed.. but then potentially I could get him back, or sell if home was a good fit... hmm. Very interesting idea, thanks! I guess the hard thing would be to find someone who is good enough to lease a young horse and train it, and potentially give it back at the end- surely no one would want to do that ?!

 

[Wishfilly]

Both good ideas, thanks Wishfilly! I will have a chat with instructor tomorrow and see what she says. Definitely like the let us know if they couldn't keep the horse, that's easy (whether they would is another story). I will have a think about the leasing idea as I genuinely hadn't thought of it, goodness knows why as we have 2 here on lease!
I guess the downsides of leasing might be if his level of training/behaviour went down and having to fix that /pay for it to be fixed.. but then potentially I could get him back, or sell if home was a good fit... hmm. Very interesting idea, thanks!

There's definitely downsides to loaning a horse out as well, but it might be worth thinking about if your Husband really isn't keen on selling.