D66
Well-Known Member
If the field is not cleared before she goes retain some money to pay for a contractor to do it. It might be worth getting a quote in advance just in case.
How much is a reasonable rent for field and stables?
- Thread starter TallGirl82
- Start date
TallGirl82
Member
In regards to land management if you are on facebook have a look at the group "Land management for horses with Dr Lisa Schofield".
You'll perhaps see land and acreage similar to your own. If you post your predicament and pictures of the land they will be able to advise (just a word of caution always read the "pinned topics" first and always say please and thank you when asking any questions on there). That page will give you a proper idea of where and how to start restoring your land[/QUOTE]
I joined the facebook group and posted... lets just say very very different opinions on there, and I was advised against becoming the landlord from hell... according to a lot of the people who replied, not poo picking and harrowing once a year is absolutely fine and that I was being interfering by even suggesting that it wasn't. So now I am really confused. Is it just a case of do what we think is best (obviously making sure its stills safe for the horses)?
You'll perhaps see land and acreage similar to your own. If you post your predicament and pictures of the land they will be able to advise (just a word of caution always read the "pinned topics" first and always say please and thank you when asking any questions on there). That page will give you a proper idea of where and how to start restoring your land[/QUOTE]
I joined the facebook group and posted... lets just say very very different opinions on there, and I was advised against becoming the landlord from hell... according to a lot of the people who replied, not poo picking and harrowing once a year is absolutely fine and that I was being interfering by even suggesting that it wasn't. So now I am really confused. Is it just a case of do what we think is best (obviously making sure its stills safe for the horses)?
teddypops
Well-Known Member
I joined the facebook group and posted... lets just say very very different opinions on there, and I was advised against becoming the landlord from hell... according to a lot of the people who replied, not poo picking and harrowing once a year is absolutely fine and that I was being interfering by even suggesting that it wasn't. So now I am really confused. Is it just a case of do what we think is best (obviously making sure its stills safe for the horses)?[/QUOTE]
ITs your land, if you want it kept tidy and poo picked, then that’s what should be happening. I rent 20+ acres and I have had between 6 and 10 horses at any one time. Most people think I am mad to poopick (I never use the whole acreage), but my land lord wants it done and it’s in my rental agreement, so I do it.
TPO
Well-Known Member
I joined the facebook group and posted... lets just say very very different opinions on there, and I was advised against becoming the landlord from hell... according to a lot of the people who replied, not poo picking and harrowing once a year is absolutely fine and that I was being interfering by even suggesting that it wasn't. So now I am really confused. Is it just a case of do what we think is best (obviously making sure its stills safe for the horses)?[/QUOTE]
The joys of fb pages
Some people on there are quite hard-core but the pinned topics do explain some good methods of land management
It's quite clear that your tenant hasn't been managing your land correctly. As someone said uptrend it's rotted manure that should be spread for fertiliser not fresh stuff left.
Equally horses shouldn't be out only grazing dirty land. There should be some.rotsrion and harrowing going on. The harrowing certainly hasn't been done regularly enough or in line with any method of land management; just her sheer laziness.
At the end of the day if you wanted to make it a rule that horse could only wear red rugs then its yor land so you can say as you please.
I'm really sorry that what I suggested ended up with you getting a hard time. ? I did think that it would be helpful for repairing the damage that the livery caused.
ETA just found and read your post. I think that you were possibly too nice about your tenant and the replies have been about the fields pictured based on a "good" tenant. Her behaviour and attitude appears to be worse than her field management and at the end of the day it is your home. From the photos your fields look good but so do mine from that same angle, it's only closer up that it's obvious how bad they are (no grass rather than lots of dung).
Perhaps a better approach is to take close up pictures once tenant has left and get advice at that point.
I'd imagine that harrowing and leaving would be the response and then possibly top next year before a new livery goes in? Depends how soon you find someone else (I'd imagine your hand will be bitten off immediately)
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GrassChop
Well-Known Member
I saw your post and the comments which weren't all the best things to hear. However, they do not have the rest of the story about the tenant's behaviour, piling poo up in shelters, cheap rent etc.
Based on the pictures, there is a lot of dock there that I'd want pulling if it was mine. Couldn't really see the grass close up to see how weedy or sparse it might be to judge if it had been poached previously but it didn't look overgrazed from what was shown and looked okay. I also couldn't see much poo but if there are areas which are really obviously building up, I'd expect it to be picked up IMO.
Either way, she doesn't pay enough and doesn't sound the easiest to deal with regardless so I wouldn't worry too much.
Nudibranch
Well-Known Member
I've seen the post on FB, the land appears in reasonable condition however as the tenant is moving on it's now irrelevant. I'd suggest finding a farmer with sheep would be a more suitable tenant in future if appearance is important.
It does show how you never get the full picture (literally) either on here or FB however.
It does show how you never get the full picture (literally) either on here or FB however.
Polos Mum
Well-Known Member
OP I too saw the photos - the land doesn't look too bad at all (from horse perspective). I suspect you would have had a more balanced response here if you had posted those photos in the first post.
I agree with above if neat fields (no straggly electric fence) no weeds etc. are important to you then sheep would be much better
Or offer to a farmer to mow for hay.
I think she was only paying you £10 x 4 x 52 = £2k p.a. - a farmer would give you 10% of that but be more willing / able to keep it looking lawn like vs. horse grazing like. Sheep grazing land is in the £50 per acre per year range !!
I agree with above if neat fields (no straggly electric fence) no weeds etc. are important to you then sheep would be much better
Or offer to a farmer to mow for hay.
I think she was only paying you £10 x 4 x 52 = £2k p.a. - a farmer would give you 10% of that but be more willing / able to keep it looking lawn like vs. horse grazing like. Sheep grazing land is in the £50 per acre per year range !!
TallGirl82
Member
The joys of fb pages
Some people on there are quite hard-core but the pinned topics do explain some good methods of land management
It's quite clear that your tenant hasn't been managing your land correctly. As someone said uptrend it's rotted manure that should be spread for fertiliser not fresh stuff left.
Equally horses shouldn't be out only grazing dirty land. There should be some.rotsrion and harrowing going on. The harrowing certainly hasn't been done regularly enough or in line with any method of land management; just her sheer laziness.
At the end of the day if you wanted to make it a rule that horse could only wear red rugs then its yor land so you can say as you please.
I'm really sorry that what I suggested ended up with you getting a hard time. ? I did think that it would be helpful for repairing the damage that the livery caused.
ETA just found and read your post. I think that you were possibly too nice about your tenant and the replies have been about the fields pictured based on a "good" tenant. Her behaviour and attitude appears to be worse than her field management and at the end of the day it is your home. From the photos your fields look good but so do mine from that same angle, it's only closer up that it's obvious how bad they are (no grass rather than lots of dung).
Perhaps a better approach is to take close up pictures once tenant has left and get advice at that point.
I'd imagine that harrowing and leaving would be the response and then possibly top next year before a new livery goes in? Depends how soon you find someone else (I'd imagine your hand will be bitten off immediately)[/QUOTE]
Please don't worry, it was all with the best of intentions! I learnt a lot in the short time I had my post up (now deleted, can't be dealing with the negativity!). I didn't go into details about the whole set up as I didn't think it would be appreciated on the page dedicated to land management rather than liveries as a whole, but it turns out that context really helps!
I have found everyone here to be friendly and helpful, which I really appreciate!
SEL
Well-Known Member
I saw your post on that FB page earlier and wondered how you'd react getting a very different view there to here.
I would add that there are a lot of people on that FB page who are anti poo picking and will go to great lengths to justify their position. That is entirely their choice as it is my choice to keep my land clear and only spread well rotted manure as and when I choose.
I looked to rent 6 acres a few years ago and the owner was insistent that poo picking was essential because another site that she owned had been left in a terrible state with huge latrine areas that the horses wouldn't eat. I was OK with that but even if I hadn't been I would have respected her opinion - her land her call, rather than being the landlord from h3ll as that FB page would imply.
I would add that there are a lot of people on that FB page who are anti poo picking and will go to great lengths to justify their position. That is entirely their choice as it is my choice to keep my land clear and only spread well rotted manure as and when I choose.
I looked to rent 6 acres a few years ago and the owner was insistent that poo picking was essential because another site that she owned had been left in a terrible state with huge latrine areas that the horses wouldn't eat. I was OK with that but even if I hadn't been I would have respected her opinion - her land her call, rather than being the landlord from h3ll as that FB page would imply.
TallGirl82
Member
Thank you! I am quite happy (not that its up to me!) that people have different opinions on land management but I didn't quite expect the strength of feeling that I got back! I guess I came across as a non-horsey newby landowner who wants perfect meadows (mostly true...) that didn't care (not true). I had seen pictured of beautiful paddocks on the same page, and thought that asking about current methods would be ok... I think I'll stay here for now and figure out how to post pictures. One day I might be able to be of use to the group and give something back!
Mrs. Jingle
Well-Known Member
Oh dear, good old FB eh? I belong to a few horse orientated groups on there, mostly to entertain myself when bored, reading some of the absolute twaddle that self professed 'horse experts' post
Sorry you had a hard time on there, but on balance I do think H&H forum is more likely to come up with genuine answers for you from people who do genuinely have experience of land management for horses.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
OP, like everything in life there will always be strongly opposing opposite views and the reality being somewhere in the middle.
The ‘correctness’ of whether to poo pick or harrow really depends on the land, size of horse, number of horses, how land is divided/rested etc.
For 8 acres I’d ideally want to limit it to 3-4 horses or 4-5 ponies. Ideally the lower end.
With that level of stocking you probably could get away with harrowing if it was divided into 3 paddocks and rested and harrowed on rotation every 2-3 months. But, it won’t look pristine.
I’m not a must religiously poo pick every day kind of person. Only time I would is on small individual paddocks.
That said, there are plenty of people that are happy to poo pick every day and if that is your preference then I’m sure you will find a tenant easily. Your land, your rules. Set your expectations up front.
The ‘correctness’ of whether to poo pick or harrow really depends on the land, size of horse, number of horses, how land is divided/rested etc.
For 8 acres I’d ideally want to limit it to 3-4 horses or 4-5 ponies. Ideally the lower end.
With that level of stocking you probably could get away with harrowing if it was divided into 3 paddocks and rested and harrowed on rotation every 2-3 months. But, it won’t look pristine.
I’m not a must religiously poo pick every day kind of person. Only time I would is on small individual paddocks.
That said, there are plenty of people that are happy to poo pick every day and if that is your preference then I’m sure you will find a tenant easily. Your land, your rules. Set your expectations up front.
maya2008
Well-Known Member
Experiences here…
- in my rural, far from London area, the going rate for grazing is £50 per acre per month. That usually includes secure fencing but nothing else. If there’s poor fencing you might get a stable or two for the price as you’d be expected to sort fencing. Land is good, you can keep approx one horse per acre living out and it stays ok.
- closer to London I have paid £55 per acre per month with 2x yearly harrowing included and water also, with a tack room, field shelter and two stables. Again, good well-draining land.
- farmers tend to suggest harrowing as if you poo pick it needs disposing of somehow and muck heaps are a legal headache as you cannot legally just pile it all up in a corner any more. Large open areas are also difficult to poo pick and best harrowed.
- if your land gets boggy in winter or is steeply sloping, you won’t get £50 per acre necessarily as you won’t be able to keep as many horse on it.
-on yards local to me it’s about £140 per month for DIY, including a decent sized school with jumps, a stable per horse, fencing maintenance, muck disposal, water, electricity and paddock spraying.
- my field is rented out for £50 per acre per month. Post and rail fencing, no water or electric. Poo picking is up to them. We sort spraying.
However much your land is worth, your current tenant may not be able to make the increase. Finding land for 3 horses will take a month or two, but she should be able to find 3-4 acres somewhere for approx £150-£200 per month. Then you could rent yours as a whole for more.
- in my rural, far from London area, the going rate for grazing is £50 per acre per month. That usually includes secure fencing but nothing else. If there’s poor fencing you might get a stable or two for the price as you’d be expected to sort fencing. Land is good, you can keep approx one horse per acre living out and it stays ok.
- closer to London I have paid £55 per acre per month with 2x yearly harrowing included and water also, with a tack room, field shelter and two stables. Again, good well-draining land.
- farmers tend to suggest harrowing as if you poo pick it needs disposing of somehow and muck heaps are a legal headache as you cannot legally just pile it all up in a corner any more. Large open areas are also difficult to poo pick and best harrowed.
- if your land gets boggy in winter or is steeply sloping, you won’t get £50 per acre necessarily as you won’t be able to keep as many horse on it.
-on yards local to me it’s about £140 per month for DIY, including a decent sized school with jumps, a stable per horse, fencing maintenance, muck disposal, water, electricity and paddock spraying.
- my field is rented out for £50 per acre per month. Post and rail fencing, no water or electric. Poo picking is up to them. We sort spraying.
However much your land is worth, your current tenant may not be able to make the increase. Finding land for 3 horses will take a month or two, but she should be able to find 3-4 acres somewhere for approx £150-£200 per month. Then you could rent yours as a whole for more.
TallGirl82
Member
Thank you for sharing, much appreciated! Tenant currently pays us £120 every 4 weeks for 8 acres, stable, shelter, tack room, hardstanding, water and electricity. (£10 per horse per week. Land agent advice (which she asked us to get) was £25 per horse per week, we didn't increase it to that amount) More than happy to use the harrow method, but I'm reading that if its the only method of poo removal, it needs doing more than once a year? There has been no boundaries maintenance by her in the entire time we've been here (and I'd say before we arrived too, given the state of the hedges and fences!)
We gave her the opportunity to talk to us about the changes in terms, which she declined, and we also said that the changes wouldn't take effect until December which was to enable her to have plenty of time to find new place if she didn't feel she could continue with us, or to make any financial changes so that she could continue with us.
Since we've been here, we've paid for muck removal (from stable/shelter mucking out), tidying up the electric fences, a new roof on the shelter and the spraying of the fields. Which I am understanding is usually either the tenant's responsibility and cost, or the tenant pays a rental fee that would certainly contribute towards if not completely cover those costs. But since we have no formal agreement, and its our land to look after, we have happily sorted it. Imagine a tenant that pays more and also does some of the above!!
Hanno Verian
Well-Known Member
You sound remarkably sensible and reasonable, I would have happily rented from you. As far as I'm concerned poo picking is best practice, people are entitled to their own views on this, in my opinion contras are generally seeking to justify their own laziness and poor land management.
Its your home, you want it to be kept in accordance with your own wishes and best practice, if people who cant/wont accept this then there are plenty who will and are willing to pay a decent rate, will be a pleasure to have around and cause you no trouble and stress. Unfortunately there are people who can barely look after themselves let alone horses and land, and think that you should subsidise them - steer clear!!
Purely out of interest where abouts are you?
Its your home, you want it to be kept in accordance with your own wishes and best practice, if people who cant/wont accept this then there are plenty who will and are willing to pay a decent rate, will be a pleasure to have around and cause you no trouble and stress. Unfortunately there are people who can barely look after themselves let alone horses and land, and think that you should subsidise them - steer clear!!
Purely out of interest where abouts are you?
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PeterNatt
Well-Known Member
If you would like a copy of a grazing licence then send me an E-mail to peter.natt@btinternet.com
TallGirl82
Member
We’re in Herefordshire ?
PurBee
Well-Known Member
I joined the facebook group and posted... lets just say very very different opinions on there, and I was advised against becoming the landlord from hell... according to a lot of the people who replied, not poo picking and harrowing once a year is absolutely fine and that I was being interfering by even suggesting that it wasn't. So now I am really confused. Is it just a case of do what we think is best (obviously making sure its stills safe for the horses)?[/QUOTE]
The thing about poo picking is that wherever a horse poops it wont eat the grass surrounding the poop. They tend to choose ‘poop spots’ - so you can have areas with 20 poops that then the grass grows very long and the horses wont eat it - understandably…..no animal eats where it sh*ts! Its inbuilt nature to not due to bacteria, parasite eggs etc.
So if a horse is out 24/7/365 - and no poo-picking is done, by the end of the year there’s going to be a lot of long grass areas where the poops are….so you lose a lot of good grazing by not poop-picking.
Of course, some horses have no choice but to eat the long grass surrounding poops if kept out on a fairly low grass/bare field and not being given hay during no growth of grass….theyre hungry and bypass their ‘natural instincts’ to not eat where they sh*t - as survival is number 1 priority - even if that means eating ‘tainted’ grass.
But this kind of ‘land management’ is cruelty really.
No wild horse would ever eat grass where poop sits. They have the opporunity to find other land, theyre wild and free.
So domestication situations of limited land means keeping the grass ‘clean’, so there’s some actual clean grass for the animal to eat.
The options are, to not poop pick and to then move horse from that field to another ‘clean’ field - harrow the poop paddock and leave to ‘rest and grow’ for a few months - before the animal returns and its ‘clean enough’ to re-graze.
You dont want to re-graze a harrowed fields within 6 weeks of harrowing as the whole field become ‘tainted’ with un-rotten poop and the horses sense this and dont like it. But again, if given no choice, they have no choice.
Or you poop pick regularly as you rotate fields every , say, 8 weeks - or if you keep them in 1 big field. This keeps the ‘tainted’ grass areas smaller sized.
Even in the poop areas horses still wont eat that long grass after poop picking, IF theyve got plenty of other grazing. The grass is tainted and they smell it. Only desperate horses eat that tainted grass…if given nothing else and no other choice.
So it wholly depends on acreage and amount of horses as to how to deal with poop.
I have many more acres than horses and i poop pick because i dont want large tainted very long grass patches , and to keep the fields ‘clean’ anyway.
It’s a horrible job.…the worst part of horse ownership dealing with the amount of poop they produce and keeping their grazing nutritious and clean , but its a part of it, very important part.
If i rented out my land id request weekly poop picking.
Apparently, one old-timer told me, the grass a horse poops on, becomes ‘tainted’ (detectable by the animal as poop grass) if the poop isnt lifted within half-hour!
So with that info i realise there will be tainted grass no matter what we do….but poop picking certainly means the tainted grass areas remain smaller, as my horses at least, dont poop onto other poops - they choose a poop-free patch to poop!
I’ve never ever written a post using the word poop so much! ???
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Something went wrong with the quoting system in the above reply.