How Much Pain Do We Really Inflict On Our Horse Daily?

Cortez said:
Dunno if I'd call it milder........less effective, less precise (not that a snaffle is precise) certainly. Many horses go better in a curb action than in a pinch action, perhaps because it suits their mouth/head conformation and understanding of the aid. Others respond to different areas of pressure; depends on the horse, the rider, the activity, the training, all sorts of things.
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I agree you have to find a way that best suits each horse. I have known some horses that seem to prefer a curb bit. I never use a single jointed snaffle though due to the nutcracker action and the fact that the joint can dig into the roof of the mouth. The only single jointed snaffle I use is the demi anky which is shaped to eliminate these problems. IME one of the worst combinations of tack is a single jointed snaffle coupled with a flash or drop. Pull on the reins and the centre joint digs into the roof of the mouth which is strapped shut so no escaping. A torture device IMO.
 
JFTD said:
I do use bits, spurs and whips and my horse still chooses to spend time with me. What's that all about? Stockholm syndrome?
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LOL . . . I haven't read the rest of this thread, but (so far) this is the best post on it . . . well said.

P
 
Wagtail said:
IME one of the worst combinations of tack is a single jointed snaffle coupled with a flash or drop. Pull on the reins and the centre joint digs into the roof of the mouth which is strapped shut so no escaping. A torture device IMO.
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That I do agree with. For a flash to be effective it has to be quite tight, so there's no escape from the pressure - particularly when coupled with the rider pulling on a nutcracker snaffle. All bar one of mine have gone well, light in hand with a hollow french link and plain cavesson noseband, the old boy prefers a straight plain pelham with two sets of reins no idea why but he's much less fussy with that arrangement.
 
If a tug on the headcollar is painful, I can't imagine the agony my horse is in whilst he drags me to the grass on the side of the road and I end up like a Thelwell cartoon trying to pull him out.

Wish I was joking, but as soon as he sees very tasty grass he must eat it, and he eats it very leisurely for a horse with his headcollar being tugged and owner frantically telling him to stop being a greedy git.

I think it's fair to say that at the end of the day, a horse is that much heavier and that much bigger than a human. If giving a horse a smack with the whip saves me from a possible life threatening injury, then I will give said horse a smack.

My horse now likes to buck and 'jump' into his canter - not out of pain, but because he's excited and likes to run around the place as fast as he can.
 
We are definitely talking about "discomfort" not pain. And guess what- life is uncomfortable!

As a domesticated female, my shoes hurt me, my bra hurts me, when I shave my legs I cut myself regularly. Don't even get me started on waxing! My legs ache after running, my hair hurts when it's knotted, my back hurts from sitting at a computer for hours at work, I regularly have to carry heavy things.

And the worst is, I still have to brave the peril of the shopping aisles at 5pm and hunt for my own food!

I'd take a jab with a head collar, the odd clunk of hoof to pole and some slightly less that comfortable mouth piece for hardly more than an hour a day - ANY DAY.

The thing is, everything that is alive experiences discomfort. Wild animals experience the discomfort of untreated illness and injury, hunger and thirst and living in fear and constant alertness. Domesticated animals have all their basic needs met but have small amounts of discomfort inflicted on them in the process.

Look at it objectively. How much time does your horse spend being handled? Probably less than 3 or 4 out of 24 hours. We bring in, we turn out and we ride. The rest of the time, your horse is at leisure. He isn't hungry, freezing, thirsty or in untreated pain. He isn't afraid or under threat of becoming something's lunch. Your small interaction is a tiny part of his day and of that tiny part, only a few minutes could possibly be interpreted to be uncomfortable.
 
Well said and what I was trying to say in my post but put more eloquently, and actually if my horses do as i ask the when i ask quietly and nicely, i don't think they have any discomfort at all. If they are rude, then to some extent the discomfort they suffer is of their own making which I think "pressure and release" is really all about. It may be a complete coincidence but all the really rude bargy horses I know are with owners who spend a lot of time treating their horses like they treat their children, all discussion, choices, letting them have their own way and no boundaries. The children also tend to be rude and badly. Woops, now that is contentious! behaved too!
LadyGascoyne said:
We are definitely talking about "discomfort" not pain. And guess what- life is uncomfortable!

As a domesticated female, my shoes hurt me, my bra hurts me, when I shave my legs I cut myself regularly. Don't even get me started on waxing! My legs ache after running, my hair hurts when it's knotted, my back hurts from sitting at a computer for hours at work, I regularly have to carry heavy things.

And the worst is, I still have to brave the peril of the shopping aisles at 5pm and hunt for my own food!

I'd take a jab with a head collar, the odd clunk of hoof to pole and some slightly less that comfortable mouth piece for hardly more than an hour a day - ANY DAY.

The thing is, everything that is alive experiences discomfort. Wild animals experience the discomfort of untreated illness and injury, hunger and thirst and living in fear and constant alertness. Domesticated animals have all their basic needs met but have small amounts of discomfort inflicted on them in the process.

Look at it objectively. How much time does your horse spend being handled? Probably less than 3 or 4 out of 24 hours. We bring in, we turn out and we ride. The rest of the time, your horse is at leisure. He isn't hungry, freezing, thirsty or in untreated pain. He isn't afraid or under threat of becoming something's lunch. Your small interaction is a tiny part of his day and of that tiny part, only a few minutes could possibly be interpreted to be uncomfortable.
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JFTD, I agree about the validity of the research I quoted. I have hunted for studies on actual bit pressure, but they're like hens teeth. The one I quoted was by Alexander Nevzorov, but I cannot find the original report in English. Found one in Russian (I think). I assumed there would be something by Dr Cook, but couldn't find any. He of course is biased, but there are some interesting articles on his site. This is a good one: http://www.bitlessbridle.com/Tradition or Science.pdf
 
Regandal said:
JFTD, I agree about the validity of the research I quoted. I have hunted for studies on actual bit pressure, but they're like hens teeth. The one I quoted was by Alexander Nevzorov, but I cannot find the original report in English. Found one in Russian (I think). I assumed there would be something by Dr Cook, but couldn't find any. He of course is biased, but there are some interesting articles on his site. This is a good one: http://www.bitlessbridle.com/Tradition or Science.pdf
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I would take anything that Mr Nev says will a huge pinch of salt.

Someone I know who has looked into bit contact is Dr Hilary Clayton. A couple of articles (in pdf format) can be found here:

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/researc...publications-1/usdf-connection/USDF_Dec05.pdf

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/researc...ions-1/usdf-connection/USDF_May06_Clayton.pdf
 
Regandal said:
JFTD, I agree about the validity of the research I quoted. I have hunted for studies on actual bit pressure, but they're like hens teeth. The one I quoted was by Alexander Nevzorov, but I cannot find the original report in English. Found one in Russian (I think). I assumed there would be something by Dr Cook, but couldn't find any. He of course is biased, but there are some interesting articles on his site. This is a good one: http://www.bitlessbridle.com/Tradition or Science.pdf
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I am glad you said that because I read about that study a while ago, it was all done with bits with large shanks and they probably tried to get the highest results possible by pulling as strongly as they could (they even reached a point where they said the pressure could break the horse's jaw, haven't seen that happen in real life). It's bogus and bordering on scam.

I am personally confident that my horse is not in pain from my aids, but have to admit she is sometimes a bit stiff on one rein which is dealt with by careful and sympathetic exercising and it's actually good for her long term health and soundness.
 
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JFTD said:
Sorry, are you suggesting an actual scientific study is reporting force measured in kilograms? Lol...
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One can measure force in kilograms weight. It is just the force due to gravity on an object of mass kg. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram-force) As mentioned, it is non-standard - Newtons would be expected in a scientific publication. However, as a way of communicating an amount of force to the lay reader, who will know what a kilogram feels like to lift and hold, I reckon it's perfectly legit.
 
fburton said:
One can measure force in kilograms weight. It is just the force due to gravity on an object of mass kg. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram-force) As mentioned, it is non-standard - Newtons would be expected in a scientific publication. However, as a way of communicating an amount of force to the lay reader, who will know what a kilogram feels like to lift and hold, I reckon it's perfectly legit.
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Nope, if it was legit, it would be published in a journal and therefore use Newtons. In my opinion anyway - as a scientist, I do not take unpublished data with no evidence of scientific rigour as evidence of anything.
 
fburton said:
I would take anything that Mr Nev says will a huge pinch of salt.

Someone I know who has looked into bit contact is Dr Hilary Clayton. A couple of articles (in pdf format) can be found here:

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/researc...publications-1/usdf-connection/USDF_Dec05.pdf

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/researc...ions-1/usdf-connection/USDF_May06_Clayton.pdf
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Regandal said:
JFTD, I agree about the validity of the research I quoted. I have hunted for studies on actual bit pressure, but they're like hens teeth. The one I quoted was by Alexander Nevzorov, but I cannot find the original report in English. Found one in Russian (I think). I assumed there would be something by Dr Cook, but couldn't find any. He of course is biased, but there are some interesting articles on his site. This is a good one: http://www.bitlessbridle.com/Tradition or Science.pdf
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All these are editorials which present no results, M&Ms or anything beyond conjecture and personal opinion. I find the Cook one painful to read!
 
JFTD you are the only scientist I know who rapidly disagrees wholeheartedly with everything that doesn't seem to be exactly "by the book" (your book). Some research may be in early stages, but that doesn't make it unworthy of examining.
Where is the questioning spirit of enquiry? : )
I watched an experiment on bit pressure a couple of years ago,at one of the Equine Colleges..excuse me while I rack my brains to find it.
 
"It is easy to convince yourself that another animal's (or even another person's) experiences are less real and less important than your own, but if you feel uncertainty and discomfort when someone calls you on something like this, it's not necessarily because they're wrong, but because you weren't sure you're right."

Brightbay, I like this!
 
ozpoz said:
JFTD you are the only scientist I know who rapidly disagrees wholeheartedly with everything that doesn't seem to be exactly "by the book" (your book). Some research may be in early stages, but that doesn't make it unworthy of examining.
Where is the questioning spirit of enquiry? : )
I watched an experiment on bit pressure a couple of years ago,at one of the Equine Colleges..excuse me while I rack my brains to find it.
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I disagree wholeheartedly with people stating conjecture as fact. And that Cook article is rife with it. My spirit of enquiry is alive and well - but it is tempered by my ability to evaluate other people's conjecture rationally and in accordance with my own observations :)
 
oldie48 said:
Actually I'd turn it round the other way. How much easier do we make it for horses? why do horses live so much longer than they would in the wild? Why have horses become domesticated. Because, basically, we provide everything they need to survive, so for both parties it's a win/win situation. We are so lucky to have horses in our lives, but they are lucky to have us (well most of us)!
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This ^^ my horses wouldn't thank anyone who thought they were better off in the wild.
 
JFTD said:
Nope, if it was legit, it would be published in a journal and therefore use Newtons. In my opinion anyway - as a scientist, I do not take unpublished data with no evidence of scientific rigour as evidence of anything.
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You've been doing it all your life. How else did you learn to walk :D. ?
 
Are people suggesting that we should inflict no discomfort ever on our horses... If so I am of the belief (maybe incorrectly) that the only way to achieve this safely is to have no interaction with horses at all... When my 3 year old barges over me I have to stop this behaviour, I shout, hiss and shake her headcollar to achieve this... If she bites I smack her... If it wasn't an unpleasant stimulus she wouldn't understand that it is undesirable. It's a necessary part of any interaction at some point... Consequences... With my little boy, he gets put on a time out, but horses don't understand that reprimand.... If pain/ discomfort is not an option then I feel we will end up with a lot of problem horses...
 
I think we all understand that any forum, or written article will consist of both conjecture and opinions. I'm struggling to see how H+H could exist without people sharing opinions and conjecture!
Hopefully, no one takes these random strangers communications as pure,unshakeable proven fact - just some possible thought provoking ideas and experiences.

The study I was thinking of measured rein strain - looks proper...
 
ozpoz said:
I think we all understand that any forum, or written article will consist of both conjecture and opinions. I'm struggling to see how H+H could exist without people sharing opinions and conjecture!
Hopefully, no one takes these random strangers communications as pure,unshakeable proven fact - just some possible thought provoking ideas and experiences.

The study I was thinking of measured rein strain - looks proper...
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There's a big difference by a post on a forum saying "I think bits are cruel" and someone writing an article in a fairly respectable sounding magazine claiming that bits are cruel without supporting evidence - these articles are read by some undiscerning people who think "this guy's a vet / Dr / PhD, and someone's given him column space in a veterinary magazine, so he must know what he's talking about".

Studies often "look proper" and may even "be" proper in principle. But if they aren't well controlled and designed they can still be meaningless. Either way, I'm with BnB. Force is fine - within reason. Horses are potentially dangerous animals and they need to be well mannered - I have no qualms about using bits, whips, spurs etc if I feel they're necessary and it will take an awful lot more than dodgy rhetoric on here, or poorly written articles in magazines to alter my opinion on that ;)
 
I am standing up for JFTD here, also being a scientist i like to see proper peer reviewed research as at least then it has been thoroughly 'questioned'. As a published scientist myself in something that is not completely groundbreaking the rigour you have to go through is tough! So a lot of equine research to me always seems rather 'light'.
 
Perhaps I'm older and more cynical than you JFTD. I wouldn't expect that letters after a name and "vet magazine" automatically means that an article is the truth and nothing but the truth. I'd just read and agree or disagree with some or all of it.

The study I mentioned was rein strain gage technology - seems to be the only one that comes up on an internet search if you are interested.
One of my horses is ridden in a hackamore. There is a reason for this - he respects it. I don't think it is kinder than a bit.
But, as a rider, I strive to communicate without undue pressure or force. He's a clever and sensitive boy and responds to the weight of the rein.
For some horses, force is not fine. Instead the rider needs to use intelligence, imagination and patience, rather then resort immediately to the whip or harsher bit. I'd prefer to eliminate the discomfort than punish the horse for experiencing it.
However, I'd react in the same way as bliztnbobs to barging or other rudeness.
 
ozpoz said:
Perhaps I'm older and more cynical than you JFTD. I wouldn't expect that letters after a name and "vet magazine" automatically means that an article is the truth and nothing but the truth. I'd just read and agree or disagree with some or all of it.
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Neither would I. I doubt you're more cynical than me - you'd certainly be the first person I'd met who was ;) My point is that some people do fall into that logical fallacy, and that's why I think it's important to highlight the shortcomings of those articles when they're posted on fora - it keeps the discussion balanced.

I'd agree with the rest of your post though - I use a whip and spurs as I feel necessary. However, I also use my brain to ensure my training and my influences on the horse are positive and not negative...
 
Trouble with a lot of equine studies is that the science is less than rigorous and the writers frequently have some sort of agenda. Like starting their research with the point of view that bits cause terrible pain, and then looking for evidence that proves it. Social scientists have a term for this, confirmation bias, which means you'll pay attention to and interpret accordingly the evidence that supports your a priori view, and completely overlook or dismiss anything that doesn't.
 
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I don't take everything I read as gospel, but if it appeals to my sense of logic and basic knowledge of anatomy, I will look further into a subject. I have a horse on loan who simply will not open his mouth to take a bit. He is 20, and an ex-racer. If I really up the pressure, he will eventually relent, but he is not happy with a bit in his mouth. I ride him in a bitless bridle. No fights, no stress and he does what I need him to do. Sorted. I suspect there's not much research out there on the subject because there's not enough money to be made from it. You could turn the question around and ask where the scientific evidence is that shows bits do not cause pain.
 
How do you prove a negative?

My horse seems content and willing in the KK French link snaffle -- and she also goes well in a double, though I only dust it off a couple times a year -- and wondered what I'd been smoking when I experimented briefly with bitless last year, just to see if it turned her into Valegro. That doesn't mean all horses will be happy in a snaffle (or double), any more than your ex-racer's reactions mean all horses will be unhappy with a bit. You have to deal with the horse in front of you. I'll put them in whatever suits them.
 
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