How Much Pain Do We Really Inflict On Our Horse Daily?

[JFTDWS]

I suspect there's not much research out there on the subject because there's not enough money to be made from it. You could turn the question around and ask where the scientific evidence is that shows bits do not cause pain.

There's plenty of money in it - it's big business, equestrian sport. There is no evidence that bits cause pain - that's not the same as there being evidence bits don't cause pain, but that's virtually impossible to prove. Plenty of horses accept bits happily - mine do, and give no indication of pain when used appropriately. When someone abuses the contact, my 8 year old has no hesitation in letting them know - I've seen him do it. So I'm pretty confident he's happy with it the rest of the time. That doesn't mean that every horse will react to a snaffle or curb the same way - mouth conformation and history dramatically affect how accepting a horse is of the bit...

 

[Marydoll]

This thread seems to be assuming that everyone hangs onto or yanks on the bit. Is lightness of hands and an independent seat not taught anymore?

Thank you

 

[doriangrey]

Well, I don't think that there is evidence to show that horses accept bits 'happily' just that they accept them generally.

 

[shortstuff99]

Mine puts her own bridle on so I guess she's pretty happy to wear a bit.

 

[JFTDWS]

Well, I don't think that there is evidence to show that horses accept bits 'happily' just that they accept them generally.

Well, mine exhibits many signs of equine happiness (relaxation, low HR, ears relaxed and forward, generally free from tension or outward sign of stress) while taking and wearing a bit. So while there's no studies supporting it (and I didn't claim there were), I would say that some horses do in my anecdotal experience.

 

[doriangrey]

So - no 'scientific' evidence either way. I'll accept that.

 

[joycec]

Well, mine exhibits many signs of equine happiness (relaxation, low HR, ears relaxed and forward, generally free from tension or outward sign of stress) while taking and wearing a bit. So while there's no studies supporting it (and I didn't claim there were), I would say that some horses do in my anecdotal experience.

But you've already said that you don't believe any anecdotal experience?

 

[Caol Ila]

So the question is, can you prove that a horse who isn't presenting any visible signs of stress is in fact stressed? Have fun.

 

[YorksG]

Given how difficult most people find it to rate 'happiness' in relation to different experiences, and that their rating will vary dependant on factors wich appear to have no direct influence on the experience they are rating, I really do not see how that could be objectively studied in horses. It is also notoriously difficult for people to score their pain respons and that is also influenced by other apparently unrelated factors.

 

[JFTDWS]

But you've already said that you don't believe any anecdotal experience?

I said I don't take anecdotal evidence discussed as generalised fact, or presented as evidence, no. I stand by my assertion that I believe my horse is happy to work in a bit - I don't necessarily expect anyone else to believe it, and I haven't described it as evidence, I expressed it as opinion. I'm sorry if that's not clear enough for you - can't you see the difference between writing an editorial and presenting opinion as generalised fact ("bits are cruel") and passing opinion on a specific phenomenon in a forum conversation ("my horse is happy to work in a bit")?

Given how difficult most people find it to rate 'happiness' in relation to different experiences, and that their rating will vary dependant on factors wich appear to have no direct influence on the experience they are rating, I really do not see how that could be objectively studied in horses. It is also notoriously difficult for people to score their pain respons and that is also influenced by other apparently unrelated factors.

Agreed.

 

[doriangrey]

To be fair I can't see the difference. Whether someone is stating an opinion, or presenting themselves as a scientist/vet or writing an editorial etc, etc. What I don't find acceptable to me is being told what I must or must not believe/accept because of lack of 'scientific' evidence because it clearly works both ways . The original post was how much pain do we inflict on our horses and the honest answer is this - we don't know.

 

[JFTDWS]

What I don't find acceptable to me is being told what I must or must not believe/accept because of lack of 'scientific' evidence because it clearly works both ways .

At what point did I tell you what you should believe. I've posted why I do not think those articles are evidence of anything, and highlighted a perspective I think needs to be noted. There's no need to be so melodramatic :rolleyes3:

 

[fburton]

Nope, if it was legit, it would be published in a journal and therefore use Newtons. In my opinion anyway - as a scientist, I do not take unpublished data with no evidence of scientific rigour as evidence of anything.

Seeing those units would make me skeptical too. Like you, I wouldn't expect to see that in a recognized scientific journal. But I can also imagine that units might get converted for a report intended for public consumption. No idea if it's happened here as I haven't looked into it closely.

 

[fburton]

All these are editorials which present no results, M&Ms or anything beyond conjecture and personal opinion. I find the Cook one painful to read!

The Clayton pieces are reporting qualitative research. Although she's done lots of good quantitative research in other areas (kinematics), I'm not aware of anyone actually measuring forces (or pressures) inside a bitted mouth. They could be estimated using a good enough model, but measuring would require some pretty sophisticated hardware I imagine.

 

[siennamum]

It's an interesting question I think. The problem is that our aspirations to be quiet, calm, & control our equine companions are a bit horse & situation dependent. Two of my horses are incredibly respectful & need only a click to get them to back up or respond. The other is impatient & I sometimes shout at him & slap him on the chest to get his attention & stop him shoving me to speed up his head collar going on. He is chastened, but untraumatised, and unhurt.

My livery was recently at a NH demo with her 2 year old. She was advised to shake the rope at him so that the large metal clip on his rope smacked him in the side of the head. Horse is teething at the moment so it would be doubly painful. Because it is an elegant solution, with no swearing, shouting or slapping it is seen as more humane somehow.

In this instance the NH solution will certainly inflict the most pain.

 

[ozpoz]

That is the rein strain gauge technology, not initially developed with horses in mind, just an engineering piece of kit, transferred to the equine business.
I've seen a study with animal behaviourists measuring stress or happiness, using measurable factors like heart rate, blinking, ear position etc.
I have to say though, good horsemanship is surely learning to know and understand your horse's thoughts and feelings, including whether you are inflicting pain or discomfort. It is sad in a way that these studies are needed.

 

[fburton]

Are people suggesting that we should inflict no discomfort ever on our horses... If so I am of the belief (maybe incorrectly) that the only way to achieve this safely is to have no interaction with horses at all... When my 3 year old barges over me I have to stop this behaviour, I shout, hiss and shake her headcollar to achieve this... If she bites I smack her... If it wasn't an unpleasant stimulus she wouldn't understand that it is undesirable. It's a necessary part of any interaction at some point... Consequences... With my little boy, he gets put on a time out, but horses don't understand that reprimand.... If pain/ discomfort is not an option then I feel we will end up with a lot of problem horses...

There's a spectrum of aversives from mild to severe that goes from pressure to discomfort to pain. Imo, there is no avoiding pressure completely, although it may be so slight as to be imperceptible to any but the horse itself. Pressure, be it mental or physical, is an essential part of communicating with horses. Discomfort may be unavoidable in some situations. I think it is possible to avoid it most of the time, but it takes a bit of effort and diligence. Pain, I believe, is a bad thing and creates fear (a whole other axis of evil ). Imo (again), it has no place in training. Even though zero pressure is unattainable in practice, part of good horsemanship is working to get as close as possible to the bottom of the scale of aversives.

 

[fburton]

Perhaps I'm older and more cynical than you JFTD. I wouldn't expect that letters after a name and "vet magazine" automatically means that an article is the truth and nothing but the truth. I'd just read and agree or disagree with some or all of it.

Absolutely! I tend to be suspicious of vets who write on topics outside their area of expertise with a self-assurance that comes from being undoubtedly very clever, very skilled people.

 

[Cortez]

Absolutely! I tend to be suspicious of vets who write on topics outside their area of expertise with a self-assurance that comes from being undoubtedly very clever, very skilled people.

Some of my best friends are vets and I also have several vets as riding students, I can assure you that being a vet is no guarantee of having the slightest clue as to what a horse is thinking, feeling or how to handle or ride one.

On the subject of pressure, even sitting on a horse creates pressure; horses can handle pressure if it is intelligently applied. They can also handle a physical reprimand if it it judicious. What they cannot handle they will soon tell you, which is why I find the whole discussion a tad disingenuous. The answer to the original question is probably "not a lot".

 

[blitznbobs]

Some of my best friends are vets and I also have several vets as riding students, I can assure you that being a vet is no guarantee of having the slightest clue as to what a horse is thinking, feeling or how to handle or ride one.

On the subject of pressure, even sitting on a horse creates pressure; horses can handle pressure if it is intelligently applied. They can also handle a physical reprimand if it it judicious. What they cannot handle they will soon tell you, which is why I find the whole discussion a tad disingenuous. The answer to the original question is probably "not a lot".

Someone finally talking some sense in this discussion... My answer is " just enough" with my horses

 

[joycec]

I don't think good riding of a healthy and fit horse in properly fitting tack causes pain. But Ido think that there are many horses working in a lot of pain.

Many of them are far more stoic than their owners realise. I've known a lot of horses over the years which have been nursing broken bones, severe arthritis, kissing spines with crumbling processes, ulcers, badly fitting tack causing muscle atrophy or girth galls, bilateral front foot heel pain, the list is endless.

Lots of horses hide pain. Lots of owners can't identify a horse in pain.

 

[be positive]

I don't think good riding of a healthy and fit horse in properly fitting tack causes pain. But Ido think that there are many horses working in a lot of pain.

Many of them are far more stoic than their owners realise. I've known a lot of horses over the years which have been nursing broken bones, severe arthritis, kissing spines with crumbling processes, ulcers, badly fitting tack causing muscle atrophy or girth galls, bilateral front foot heel pain, the list is endless.

Lots of horses hide pain. Lots of owners can't identify a horse in pain.

Most owners do try but can only go from experience, if the horse seems "happy" then that is acceptable to many, they miss the less obvious signs as so many horses are stoic, it is often easier to see issues when you are slightly removed from the horse or have had similar experiences.

To add to the final line in the post quoted, nor can many vets who examine those horses, often attributing bad behaviour to being exactly that when there is an underlying reason, if the vets cannot identify pain what chance does the average horse owner have of getting to the bottom of it.

 

[Regandal]

I agree most horses accept a bit and work happily in one. It is that slight possibility there may be discomfort/pain that I want to eliminate. I don't compete so don't have to use bits, obviously others do.
You would think that with the sophisticated gadgetry now available, someone somewhere would have measured bit pressure (scientifically of course). I shall write to Dr Cook and suggest it..............

 

[Cheshire Chestnut]

Sorry, I posted this a while ago and not had time to read all the responses and replies until now.

I love all the difference in opinion - I was worried it was only me that thought about it. Since posting this thread, I've been watching what I do with my horse and studying his reactions from things. For example, when I show him the lunge whips whilst lunging him, does he look at me scared or does he trust I won't hurt him?

Sad to say, he does look scared when I wield a lunge whip (I've never hit him with one but then again he's 7 and I've only had him a year - someone else may have?), which makes me sad. I don't want him to think I'd ever inflict pain on him to cause him to be scared of me. I know he trusts me, but really how much does he trust be not to hurt him? I suppose I can look at it the other way round too: I turst him, however I can't always trust him not to hurt me when riding him or even walking next to him etc. That said, horses don't have the brain capacity to think the way we do, they don't think about things in the same way and therefore act on instinct, thus sometims causing harm to the people trying to help/care for them.

Interesting thread to read. I suppose like all horses, if they've had some kind of traumatic experience in the past (anything from being beaten with a lunge whip, to being clanged with poles on purpose when jumping), it sticks with him and they tend expect that to happen again, even if you've never done it to them or even threatened it.

 

[482739]

Been reading this with interest. Mine is currently on box rest & rearing as a over-reaction to everything with too much energy. She is bitted with a lunge line so I imaginw rearing would hurt her mouth. She's got a high threshold for pain so I have to really watch her to know when she's hurting