How much would it cost to have a full time groom to look after horses at home?

[ihatework]

But it is illegal if it’s done to circumvent paying tax.

Another on UI so that I don’t argue with myself or others that don’t understand arguments

 

[Birker2020]

But it is illegal if it’s done to circumvent paying tax.

Another on UI so that I don’t argue with myself or others that don’t understand arguments

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

All I was saying was that it wasn't illegal. Its nothing about being underhand...honestly you would argue with yourself

There was a very clear inference, nay it was explicity said, that you could get away with paying less if it were cash in hand. The only reason this would be the case is if the recipient was not intending to pay Tax & NI on it, otherwise why would they accept a lower hourly wage? They wouldn't. Don't try and spin this around just because people don't agree with you and you can't be bothered to follow up your statement.

It is an extremely dishonest thing to do and incredibly selfish on behalf of the employer, even if not for HMRC purposes but for the 'employee' it would impact on furlough eligibility, credit lendability, house buying potential and quite possibly their eligibilitity for a government pension if they do it on a prolonged basis. So I would seriously suggest you reconsider offering it as a viable solution.

 

[Carrottom]

Re "paying their taxes", I assume someone working a few of hours a day wouldn't earn enough to pay tax.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Re "paying their taxes", I assume someone working a few of hours a day wouldn't earn enough to pay tax.

Based on the assumption they don't have another job, don't have any investments, haven't forefited some of their personal allowance to their OH or have any government benefits eg: widows allowance, ESA, JSA, Carer's Allowance. There are too many caveats to rely on them being under the taxable threshold. Not to mention the NI threshold £9568 for self employed, much lower than the tax banding.

 

[Birker2020]

There was a very clear inference, nay it was explicity said, that you could get away with paying less if it were cash in hand. The only reason this would be the case is if the recipient was not intending to pay Tax & NI on it, otherwise why would they accept a lower hourly wage? They wouldn't. Don't try and spin this around just because people don't agree with you and you can't be bothered to follow up your statement.

It is an extremely dishonest thing to do and incredibly selfish on behalf of the employer, even if not for HMRC purposes but for the 'employee' it would impact on furlough eligibility, credit lendability, house buying potential and quite possibly their eligibilitity for a government pension if they do it on a prolonged basis. So I would seriously suggest you reconsider offering it as a viable solution.

I'm not trying to spin anything around. Do what you please. It was just a suggestion.

Every single person I know who grooms and every yard I know that has grooms on it all pay cash in hand. That is my experience. Having been on four yards in 30 years. That's why I mentioned it.

Current yard the staff are on the books.

None are professional yards, all are hobby yards for want of a better word.

 

[Birker2020]

Re "paying their taxes", I assume someone working a few of hours a day wouldn't earn enough to pay tax.

Of course they wouldn't. But why let truth get in the way of a good story?

 

[Polos Mum]

In Yorkshire people are being paid £15 an hour for dog walking and they are fully booked up.

I imagine wage inflation will have to hit the horse industry or people just won't find staff.
Travel time needs to be considered if you don't want someone there for 8 hours. Realistically everyone wants turnout / muck out at the same time so you have to pay what is needed in your area to be appealing.

If your horses are gits to deal with and your yard is muddy and badly maintained and miles from anywhere I'd expect to pay a lot.
If you're down the road from a large riding school I'd call in there and ask the person in charge whether any of their staff are looking for extra hours.

to keep someone occupied full time I'd imagine you'd have 8-10 horses some of which needing exercise and include things like tack cleaning and full grooming every day.

I have 4 at home and when I'm organised I can do all morning jobs in an hour or so and then just pop them in stable in the evening.

 

[Birker2020]

Based on the assumption they don't have another job, don't have any investments, haven't forefited some of their personal allowance to their OH or have any government benefits eg: widows allowance, ESA, JSA, Carer's Allowance. There are too many caveats to rely on them being under the taxable threshold. Not to mention the NI threshold £9568 for self employed, much lower than the tax banding.

So you are a groom/mucker outer, call yourself what you will. There's a job being advertised on the notice board in the local feed merchant or riding club; "Person wanted to muck out ten stables on a busy friendly yard, turnout, bring in, feeds, etc. Need someone twice a day for three hours morning, two hours afternoon x 4 days a week (weekdays). Must be confident with horses. Must have car due to location"

So you honestly think that a YO will be thinking "I can only offer cash in hand if Fred Bloggs doesn't have another job, or any investments, he hasn't forefited some of his personal allowance to his OH or have any government benefits eg: widows allowance, ESA, JSA, or Carer's Allowance."

Or do you think they'd say "I'll see if they accept £9.00 an hour cash in hand"?

I'm not here to discuss the rights and wrongs. I know you are allowed to do cash in hand work if you work under a certain number of hours a week. In my original reply I said that it wasn't illegal and guess what.....? Its not.

 

[ihatework]

Re "paying their taxes", I assume someone working a few of hours a day wouldn't earn enough to pay tax.

Surely that depends on what they are charging and if they are working for more than one person, none of which you can assume or know.

Take £15/hour (which is what most good legit freelancers charge, or more). 4 hours a day, 5 days a week, 46/52 weeks of the year. £13,800pa income. Over the personal income tax threshold and well over NI threshold.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

So you are a groom/mucker outer, call yourself what you will. There's a job being advertised on the notice board in the local feed merchant or riding club; "Person wanted to muck out ten stables on a busy friendly yard, turnout, bring in, feeds, etc. Need someone twice a day for three hours morning, two hours afternoon x 4 days a week (weekdays). Must be confident with horses. Must have car due to location"

So you honestly think that a YO will be thinking "I can only offer cash in hand if Fred Bloggs doesn't have another job, or any investments, he hasn't forefited some of his personal allowance to his OH or have any government benefits eg: widows allowance, ESA, JSA, or Carer's Allowance."

Or do you think they'd say "I'll see if they accept £9.00 an hour cash in hand"?

I'm not here to discuss the rights and wrongs. I know you are allowed to do cash in hand work if you work under a certain number of hours a week. In my original reply I said that it wasn't illegal and guess what.....? Its not.

No, the YO would likely be thinking 'who can I get in that's good for the least amount of money'. And the worker will, if they are dishonest and not very good at planning for the future be thinking 'great, cash in hand, I can keep it all and not pay any tax on it'. It is only when the worker wants a mortgage and thinks that £10,428 should be considered when calculating how much they can borrow, or when they want furlough money because they can't work, or when they want their accident insurance to pay out for loss of earnings as they have broken their leg and can no longer work that they find out this cash in hand money which you have taken on the quiet and not declared is null and void - plus the HMRC selection for investigation and resultant tax or NI invoice which would very closely follow suit - which they can do at will for up to 20 years after the assessment is submitted.

I am not arguing with you over whether it happens, it evidently does, I am just emploring you to make the distinction between something that is in a lot of cases exploitative, unless the recipient is intelligent about it, and something which should be recommended as a good idea, or an option to explore when looking at employment options.

ETA: changed some grammatical errors

 

[Polos Mum]

As an employer having people work for you (especially at your home), you should absolutely have employers liability insurance and appropriate home / property liability insurance to protect yourself. As a condition of appropriate insurance you would need legal employees (with some sort of contract and paperwork) and to pay the appropriate tax / auto enrolment pension etc.
If someone 'off the books' was injured at your home (and lets face it - horses can be horses!) you would be personally liable and all your assets (home included) if you're uninsured.

You are definitely free to pay them cash (I think up to any amount or £ or hours) but you are still liable to make the appropriate HMRC filings when doing so.

If (as above example) the YO pays the £9 an hour - they are liable for collecting the PAYE from the staff member - if they don't HMRC will look to claim the money from them in the first instance - not the employee !!) Maybe than number is nil or maybe it's loads - not a risk as an employer I'd be prepared to take.

 

[MissTyc]

"cash in hand" is an expression usually used for tax dodging.
Whether the money is hard cash or electronic, doesn't matter. It doesn't need to be declared if it amounts to under £1000/tax year, even if you have other income. Because it costs HMRC more to administer than what they would collect. If DOES need to be declared if it amounts to more than £1000/tax year, even if the outcome is that no tax is due. You have the personal allowance and, if self-employed, your expenses which are tax deductible. And, sure, if you're a bit cheeky you might also pocket the odd £50 here and there rather than process it. Stating that "it is not illegal" is a huge generalisation. It absolutely is highly likely to be illegal. And also a bit shit for your pension.

 

[Kat]

Based on the assumption they don't have another job, don't have any investments, haven't forefited some of their personal allowance to their OH or have any government benefits eg: widows allowance, ESA, JSA, Carer's Allowance. There are too many caveats to rely on them being under the taxable threshold. Not to mention the NI threshold £9568 for self employed, much lower than the tax banding.

And of course if they are earning that little the chances are that they are claiming benefits so paying cash in an unrecorded way at a discount could be contributing to benefit fraud.

I have no issue with people paying for goods and services cash, I have no problem in principle with a discount for cash if it is reflective of a genuine saving (speed, bank charges, trips to the bank, ability to pay suppliers) but it needs to be properly invoiced and not done to evade tax, commit benefit fraud, or to money launder.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Thats an odd statement. This isn’t really about cash - it’s about terms of employment.

It comes down to whether the groom will be an employee or self employed. The former employer takes on the tax liability, the latter the groom takes it on.

It’s fine to pay in cash either way. Provided HMRC still get their slice

Of course it’s fine to pay cash, and pay all the due taxes, and declare it.

The phrase “cash in hand” typically means cash paid, no records kept, no tax paid on either side, off books.

It literally means putting cash in someone’s hand off record.

 

[ihatework]

Of course it’s fine to pay cash, and pay all the due taxes, and declare it.

The phrase “cash in hand” typically means cash paid, no records kept, no tax paid on either side, off books.

It literally means putting cash in someone’s hand off record.

I know, and that is what Birker was suggesting as a way of cutting costs. Which others have pulled her up on, myself included, but she can’t see the issue!

 

[AmyMay]

I know lots of people that are paid cash in hand. If both parties are in agreement there is no issue as far as I am concerned. Horses are one industry when you see CIH a lot.

I get paid in cash a lot. People who pay me in cash don’t get my service for any less, and I still have to pay my taxes based on that cash. OP is enquiring about employing someone. They can still pay them in cash, but that doesn’t negate their responsibility as an employer.

 

[flying_high]

I get paid in cash a lot. People who pay me in cash don’t get my service for any less, and I still have to pay my taxes based on that cash. OP is enquiring about employing someone. They can still pay them in cash, but that doesn’t negate their responsibility as an employer.

Yes, aqree, you get paid in cash, and report it in full.

You dont get paid "cash in hand" as that would be someone expecting to pay you less to be off books and uninsured, and no tax and NI paid. That is an employeer hoping to duck their responsibilities.

Anyone can be paid up to £1,000 a year without paying tax / reporting to HRMC if is your sole earnings.

But employer shouldnt pay employee less on this basis, they should pay an amount that assumes employee will be paying tax, and NI on the payment. Most employees cant live on £1,000 a year without benefits or other income so tax will be will be due on most cash payments!

 

[Sossigpoker]

Probably about the same as it would cost to have your horse on livery after you've paid for insurance, water , electric, council tax etc.
I get that you're a kid /young person but asking these same questions several times won't change the answers.

 

[Birker2020]

I know, and that is what Birker was suggesting as a way of cutting costs. Which others have pulled her up on, myself included, but she can’t see the issue!

Aw thanks for that. Well slap my wrist then I googled to see if it was legal to pay cash in hand and it was so suggested it. Flipping heck, firing squad or hanging?

Within a five mile radius of my yard there are probably about 30 livery yards, maybe more - I know this because I have a list which I've given people on this forum looking in my area, with contact names and phone numbers. Most of them are DIY or Part Livery Yards. I would estimate that at least 90% of the casual staff are paid cash in hand. They are either liveries that have horse(s) on the yard or friends of the YO. How do I know this? Because that's what people do. They are taken on casually for a few hours here and there, mostly two or three days a week, but some for five or more days.

Sometimes they work in exchange for keeping their horse on the yard or for a bit of pocket money. I agree that they won't get a pension or employment rights, but people keep horses on a shoe string and that is the least of their worries.

I also know a groom on a top competition yard. The yards owner is a top show jumper. She gets a contract, holiday and sickness pay. But she is one very few and far between.

 

[Goldenstar]

Freelancers usually have a reason through are they working that way .
I think the commonest reason is children and the cost of childcare
I have employed a lot over the years .
They have always done things for other people some have jobs doing completely different things .
I don’t think paying cash in hand as a saying is the same as paying someone in cash because they work irregular hours for people as a freelance .

 

[Birker2020]

Freelancers usually have a reason through are they working that way .
I think the commonest reason is children and the cost of childcare
I have employed a lot over the years .
They have always done things for other people some have jobs doing completely different things .
I don’t think paying cash in hand as a saying is the same as paying someone in cash because they work irregular hours for people as a freelance .

Most of the people I'm thinking about are between the ages of 18-25.

 

[ycbm]

How can you pay someone cash if you don't put it in their hand?

This thread now seems to have assigned some underhand meaning to cash in hand that doesn't exist for cash. Cash is physical money. Cash in hand is nothing more than physical money put in a hand.

Birker is right, many people who take cash on the day on a self employed basis will be cheaper than an employee because they don't (when they should) reckon up and charge for holidays and potential sick pay. It is also possible for a self employed person to pay less tax than someone employed on the same hourly rate and in a tight market they might factor that into their charges (yes I know the market for freelance grooms is currently short of grooms). Many people will be taking cash in hand for a couple of hundred a week and will be well under the tax threshold and able to offer low rates on that basis too. A self employed person doesn't need to give themselves minimum wage if they want to do a job for less, and there are people who it suits to do that, perhaps if they are already there for their own horse, for example, and it's a nice bit of pin money.

I don't think Birker intended to use cash in hand as shorthand for a tax scam.

ETA yes we all know it often IS a scam, but I really don't think this pile-on to Birker is justified.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Cash in hand has long been shorthand for expecting to pay less for goods or services because the payment is made below the radar, eg to dodge VAT. It is dodgy as heck.

Paying full price for goods or services by cash is not paying by cash in hand .

 

[Goldenstar]

I would never say I pay people cash in hand I would only use that term where people are avoiding tax.
One thing I don’t get where businesses pay less than they ought for ad hoc labour if they are doing it to avoid costs is how do they but those wages through their books because that would negate any saving they potentially might make .

 

[ycbm]

paying full price for services by cash is not paying by cash in hand .

Yes, it is. In my world you pay cash for goods and for services bought from a company (also often done in an attempt to avoid vat) and cash in hand for work done by one person.

 

[Goldenstar]

No it’s not is saying used to mean paying less for an off the books transaction .

 

[ycbm]

One thing I don’t get where businesses pay less than they ought for ad hoc labour if they are doing it to avoid costs is how do they but those wages through their books because that would negate any saving they potentially might make .

They don't. They take payment for their goods or services in cash and use that cash to pay the wages. None of it ever sees the books, in or out.
.

 

[ycbm]

No it’s not is saying used to mean paying less for an off the books transaction .

It may be to you, that is is not universal. It doesn't to me and I have just asked my OH to define cash in hand, then explicitly asked him if it infers dodging tax and he emphatically said not. Birker has already tried over and over to explain that it does not for her either, she does not deserve this pile on.
.

 

[Goldenstar]

Then that’s an opinion and it’s not mine .
I pay my freelancers mostly in cash because it’s convenient because they work irregular hours it’s not done to reduce cost .