How should poor conformation affect your Dressage scores?

charlimouse

charlimouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 September 2009
Messages
3,181
Location
Yorkshire
Visit site
Just a musing after yesterday really. I felt Jem did a very smart dressage test, but it was one of those days when the judge doesn't seem to agree :o. Every comment was 'croup high'. Jem has 'interesting' conformation, and her croup is over an inch higher than her withers. This side on pics (photo taken a long time ago!) shows it best of the pictures I have of her on this computer (unfortunately i don't have a 'naked' picture of her ;))!

IMG_5820.jpg


For the past 2 years I have been working to make sure this affects her as little as possible and I feel we have made some huge improvements to the point where she now looks like this

IMG_1822.jpg


I know the test yesterday was uphill, accurate and obedient, and am at a loss what I could have done to get a better score. For me her croup being high is a conformational fault, and TBH most judges notice this. Except this one who seemed to feel the need to put next to every movement 'croup high' :confused:. It was disheartening after all the hard work I have put in over the past 2 years.

So back to the question. Should a horse who has a conformational fault, but is technically working as correctly as it possibly can be marked down for the conformation? Or should the dressage judge be able to recoginse poor conformation, and put it down to that, and judge how correctly the horse is working within it's capabilities?
 
Grrrrr my pet hate is dressage scores that don't reflect the riders skill and the correct training of the horse.. imho ... err sorry forget the humble bit .. imo dressage is about the preparation of the horse for riding .. to enable the horse to carry a rider to its best ability irrespective of conformation.. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr but well done as I love your photos looks like you've been doing the right to me and the judges should perhaps transfer to the showing ring where conformation is judged. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr <disappears off muttering about competition dressage judging etc etc etc>
 
To be honest, i think conformational faults only play a part when its causing the horse to not work properly.
My tb mare has a very dippy back and slight ewe neck which means that making her work uphill is extremely difficult and some judges criticise her for not being uphill enough which is a fair comment.
So if being croup high is causing the horse to not step through properly then it probably is fair but not to be phrased as "croup high" lol its not a showing competition! Maybe comment (if this was the case) should be "could be more through" or something.
 
That sounds really bizarre! I could understand mentioning a conformational fault in the summary comments, along the lines of either praising you for working well with it, or giving some helpful suggestions on how to work with it, but it seems excessive and irrelevant to mention it next to every movement!

My pony's bum isn't, um, exactly below his withers, and it's never been mentioned specifically on a test...maybe there's too much else to pick apart? :o
 
I know a horse with a real roach back which actually helps him look like he's working through from behind when he's under saddle, gets decent dressage scores by all accounts but I wouldn't invite him to join my show horses ;)
 
Haha I feel your pain>>>

jennypictures180-1.jpg


She can't help it bless her!

Dressage is not a showing and any dressage judge worth their salt wouldn't pick up on such a thing - if it doesn't impact on the horses paces and rhythm then comments 'croup high' don't help anyone. I am not an expert but even I can see if a horse is working correctly, relaxed through the poll and working over it's back rather than being on the forehand with dodgy confirmation. Probably because I ride Charisma who is croup high, I know these things and am experienced in 'odd' confirmation! :D

I really wouldn't worry about it
 
Just done a google search on the Judge. He is List 4, and indcidentally was the conformation judge a a county show. Maybe he got mixed up what he was judging? :eek::rolleyes:;):p
 
Another who feels your pain:
1ba3bd1d.jpg


TBH if the horse is working uphill then you shouldn't be marked down, although a croup high horse will never be as uphill as one which isn't. :)

On a side note I do love that pic of you and Gem at Badders!
 
Just to take the other side for a minute . . .

I know you're frustrated but if, as you say, this is the only judge who penalises her for it, the one could argue this particular judge is at fault. Annoying if you get him/her for a competition that's really important to you but not, as you're suggesting, a pattern of judging that has to be addressed at a systemic level.

Also, not really relevant to this but in general, conformation is not immaterial to dressage competitions. (As distinct from correct schooling. Competitions, after all, are judged against a standard.) The judge can only judge what's in front of him/her so if a horse has a weakness in it's way of going that's predicated by a conformation fault then why shouldn't it get penalised relative to a horse without that or another similar fault? There is a good reason why people pay the money they do for good moving, well built (not "perfect", designed for the job) horses. As you say, she is not an ideal conformation for the job at hand, she struggles more than some, and because of this she will not get the marks are more naturally blessed horse might

Okay, it's at least partially a "training" competition but it isn't wholly - hence a mark for movement - and good conformation is not academic, it's meant to foster correct performance. Your horse going wonderfully will likely lose to a horse designed for the job going equally well and, fair or not, a horse designed for the job but not going as well might still have more checks in the "for" column over the course of a test.

Sorry if that sounds harsh and unsympathetic. Your second pic is lovely and you are to be commended for the improvement, which I'm sure has been reflected in her marks over all. Also, good training is not just about marks in a test, so you've done the horse a real favour for improving her way of going. But life - and competition - is not always "fair".
 
Tarrsteps,

Just what I wanted to say!

OP - Don't be disheartened your horse is in good company. I think we all know that Opposition Buzz does not get good dressage scores due to him finding it difficult due to his not so good conformation.
 
A comment of croup high is not a judgement of confirmation but describing to the rider that the balance is downhill, the horse is not flexing at the hock and swinging through from behind, over the back.

It would be much better to clarify with the judge than to just slate them on a forum and would hopefully give you more insight and understanding of your test to help you see what was good and not so good.

Listed judges can be contacted by phone or email if there is not the opportunity on the day.

Contact details are available either from the BD office or to members on the BD website.
 
A horse that is built croup high is different to a horse working croup high but the former will always have to work harder than a horse with an easier conformation to get the same marks, given that they are working to a similar standard. Your 2 pictures show that you have improved her a lot but she still needs to come up even more through her back so she can lower her quarters and carry more weight behind. I suspect that, if you are brutally honest with yourself, you will have the feeling that her back drops away from your seat and she is not really supporting you. When you get this you will have her stepping better under her body - even in the 2nd picture she is barely tracking up.
Particularly at the lower levels, different judges will have slightly different priorities - one will not sacrifice softness for anything while another will want forward even if the balance becomes a little fragile. In a regional final at BE100 there are plenty of horses that may not go a lot further but are very secure at the level. While it is disappointing to miss Badminton, carry on building the strength in her back and improving the engagement then you will have a lot of fun with her at a higher level.
 
I don't think charlimouse is disputing that conformation can affect way of going/can make it more difficult for the horse to work correctly! Her beef appears to be with "croup high" being used as the comment for every single movement, which does strike me as very unusual! Surely, if every movement suffers from the same core problem, this is something to be remarked upon in the comments at the bottom? Charlimouse, did the judge give you any further clarification?

I think everyone's experienced a test where the judge appears to have had tomatoes on their eyes; obviously, since none of us saw the test, we can't comment as to whether or not charlimouse's feeling that the horse was not falling on the forehand is justified! I don't get the impression that she is slating the judge; just that she is honestly confused. I do think that "croup high" is an odd way of phrasing "on the forehand", if that is what was meant. Perhaps just haven't encountered that way of putting it before?
 
Last edited:
B-B said:
A comment of croup high is not a judgement of confirmation but describing to the rider that the balance is downhill, the horse is not flexing at the hock and swinging through from behind, over the back.

It would be much better to clarify with the judge than to just slate them on a forum and would hopefully give you more insight and understanding of your test to help you see what was good and not so good.

Listed judges can be contacted by phone or email if there is not the opportunity on the day.

Contact details are available either from the BD office or to members on the BD website.
Click to expand...

TBF I didn't think I was slating the judge. I was asking how/if a horse's conformation should affect the score, as I was genuinely interested as I havn't had the 'croup high' comment from a judge for this horse for the past 18 months. Therefore I was slightly disapointed I got that comment after all the work and improvements. But I accept that was his opinion of the test, and I would never argue.
 
spookypony said:
I don't think charlimouse is disputing that conformation can affect way of going/can make it more difficult for the horse to work correctly! Her beef appears to be with "croup high" being used as the comment for every single movement, which does strike me as very unusual! Surely, if every movement suffers from the same core problem, this is something to be remarked upon in the comments at the bottom? Charlimouse, did the judge give you any further clarification?

I think everyone's experienced a test where the judge appears to have had tomatoes on their eyes; obviously, since none of us saw the test, we can't comment as to whether or not charlimouse's feeling that the horse was not falling on the forehand is justified! I don't get the impression that she is slating the judge; just that she is honestly confused. I do think that "croup high" is an odd way of phrasing "on the forehand", if that is what was meant. Perhaps just haven't encountered that way of putting it before?
Click to expand...

Croup high is not the same as on the forehand. If the horse goes croup high he stiffens his hind legs and back and pushes up behind. This is different to a horse losing balance and carrying his weight on his shoulder.
 
oldvic said:
Croup high is not the same as on the forehand. If the horse goes croup high he stiffens his hind legs and back and pushes up behind. This is different to a horse losing balance and carrying his weight on his shoulder.
Click to expand...

OK, I get what you mean; that's a very different thing. Haven't encountered this comment on a sheet before; thence the question! Still seems odd to write it beside every movement?
 
I feel your pain- one of mine has god awful conformation and can really suffer in the dressage because of it.
She struggles with some of the harder work, particularly in intermediate tests so that is a problem- but, even when relaxed and going nicely, judges sometimes just don't 'get' her. They mark her down for being short in the neck and on the forehand but, look at her- how could you make her look any other way?! Some judges can see through it and view a calm, obedient test and mark it accordingly

Moon19-5.jpg


But luckily she jumps like an athletic little ball so I can live with it!
 
For what it's worth I thought this was a reasonable question from charliemouse... croup high horses will always struggle to 'sit' more on their hocks and work over their backs. However if trained correctly and within the parameters of their ability should be able to do a decent BE100 dressage test.

The real issue is whether or not the judge clarifies what they mean and whether or not they give constructive criticism (and I'm not judge bashing before anyone asks) because as a rider this is what you take away with you and work on for next time.

Don't get disheartened CM - put it down to experience, and be pleased with what you've achieved. If it crops up again either ask the judge on the day or seek another opinion with training sessions with a BE judge/BD judge to get feedback.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top