how sore is too sore ?
- Thread starter maggiehorse
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thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
Iv always had shod horses and knew no different until my horse bacame lame and the only way to save him from being pts is to go barefoot and grow him a new hoof. Iv always said the same mitchyden why stable when I could save money having them in the field, feed food which is more expensive when I could feed basic cheap feed and the cost off supplements which normally I wouldn't use, but this way off thinking ( old owners not me) has left my lad with a ? mark over his life. I have learnt a lot and I mean a lot via this forum on barefoot and what diet, enviroment etc has to do with it and it is so interesting I'm stuck to each barefoot thread as I learn something new on every thread. Oh and tbh my lot loves coming in by day and if I seek up early some are flat out asleep and some are stood at the back half asleep with all hanging loose!! 
it's funny cause iv always been so anti barefoot but the more you learn the more it all falls into place and makes sence. I was so against it before because off lack off knowledge nothing else.
Sorry I'm going on a bit
it's funny cause iv always been so anti barefoot but the more you learn the more it all falls into place and makes sence. I was so against it before because off lack off knowledge nothing else.
Sorry I'm going on a bit
Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
And you're not getting what I'm saying. I've raised all the horses the same exact way. Same diet and unless I have one in competition they pretty much live on starvation bar vits and mins. Now I have a blacksmith that has had this filly correct, pays attention to wearing, and is happy to let them self wear to a point.
But you guys didnt read that. You only read diet, blah blah blah. Only difference in this 2yo and the others is the person in charge of her feet. Diet is unchanged. But hey for 30 euros a go, previous blacksmiths were happy to keep trimming and rasping no matter what.
But this is why I don't really ask questions on this subject because you all just repeat yourselves. Diet on and on. Got it. Was feeding all the same stuff you all do before it was " the bible" of feeding.
Terri
But you guys didnt read that. You only read diet, blah blah blah. Only difference in this 2yo and the others is the person in charge of her feet. Diet is unchanged. But hey for 30 euros a go, previous blacksmiths were happy to keep trimming and rasping no matter what.
But this is why I don't really ask questions on this subject because you all just repeat yourselves. Diet on and on. Got it. Was feeding all the same stuff you all do before it was " the bible" of feeding.
Terri
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
Equilibrium ireland I agree, I think the horses feet are better left to a certain point. I do the same with 2 off mine and are only touched by the farrier if really needed. The thing which my farrier is he will cut and chop off everything he can but how's that helping to grow a strong hoof? It's only undoing any good work you have done surely?
Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
The biggest problem my horses had was my ignorance in keeping feet. The day I fired this blacksmith was the day he crippled my 10 month pregnant broodmare. She lived barefoot her entire life. Problem is when I got her at almost turning 4 her feet were never done. It's a long story but as a baby her hind leg got hung up in barb wire. After that she was vicious to do hence why no one did her. So my blacksmith at the time hated her. Take off as much foot as you can and you don't have to see her again for a while. So with all that extra baby weight she had zero foot. I cried because it was my ignorance. It wasn't sugar, it wasn't grass.
And it was always the same. Take off as much foot as possible instead of trying to actually work with a foot and it's growth.
I went on the "diet" years ago because of soya. Very harmful that crap. Will do the exact same as sugar to horses with an intolerance. Balancers. Absolute poison in my opinion. They've created more problems than good. I always knew sugar was bad. But soya just as bad. Ask yourself this. We blame grass for everything and yet it's in the last 15 years that we've had this explosion of IR in horses and related problems. Just about the time every feed company and their brother came on the Market with these super foods. Most of which is soya based. Need weight? Miracle soya. Want zero calories but high protein. Here you go fill your horse with soya.
So yeah, going off of soya meant I had to go back to basics. Balanced vits and mins, low or no sugar, and basically a forage diet. And in Ireland finding things like flax which isn't designer flax is an absolute nightmare. Most of the time I just want to give up but I continue. I put most of the blame on my horses feet to my ignorance in farrier care as well as buying into the glossy bags of crap nutrition.
Terri
And it was always the same. Take off as much foot as possible instead of trying to actually work with a foot and it's growth.
I went on the "diet" years ago because of soya. Very harmful that crap. Will do the exact same as sugar to horses with an intolerance. Balancers. Absolute poison in my opinion. They've created more problems than good. I always knew sugar was bad. But soya just as bad. Ask yourself this. We blame grass for everything and yet it's in the last 15 years that we've had this explosion of IR in horses and related problems. Just about the time every feed company and their brother came on the Market with these super foods. Most of which is soya based. Need weight? Miracle soya. Want zero calories but high protein. Here you go fill your horse with soya.
So yeah, going off of soya meant I had to go back to basics. Balanced vits and mins, low or no sugar, and basically a forage diet. And in Ireland finding things like flax which isn't designer flax is an absolute nightmare. Most of the time I just want to give up but I continue. I put most of the blame on my horses feet to my ignorance in farrier care as well as buying into the glossy bags of crap nutrition.
Terri
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
It's not fair to let them get laminitis either and shoes do a very good job of masking the early signs. Unfortunately they also mean that a lot of horses are 'dropping through their feet' which is why they have the flat, thin soles. And shoes help this along 'nicely' by peripherally loading the foot.
Which is why regardless of how hard it was for me to get my current mare right I'd never shoe her - at least not for footiness/laminitis.
Shysmum
Well-Known Member
Get hold of the book called "Feet First" - a very good intro to barefoot everything.
Sparkles
Well-Known Member
One of mine took about 3 weeks [no work, other than again being bought in and out] to toughen up and not be 'footy'. He has a mixture of ground in his field, he'd stick to the soft grass first and then would start heading to the more stony track and hard mud area. I didn't do anything with him, just turned him away.
Bought him back in when he was content without shoes in the field, and started lightly riding him out. Again, round fields to start with, then progressing to short amount of roadwork and then increasing it slowly.
About 6-8 months on, it got to the point where he'd happily hack over any ground. I was quite happy with him barefoot...but then we moved and had a lot of flinty ground on our new hacking and never really got 'happy' being ridden on it. I kept at it trying to condition him over it like the start, but it was just too sharp for him. So the fronts went back on.
Kept a set on for 9 week periods after that, his foot had completely changed shape during being unshod and had heels again [he had boxy hinds and flat fronts]. Previous shoes would stay on for about 2 weeks maximum, before his hoof would crumble and crack round the clenches. Ran out of places to renail each time which in turn was just ruining his feet more. Hence my reason for saying 'sod it' and taking his shoes off to start with.
Granted, he's back to being shod in front, but, it's not necessary been a 'fail' him being barefoot, as his feet are stronger and much better shaped from it now! He can actually be shod again, which is a miracle to me lol. Fortnightly farrier visits were killing my bank ccount!
Bought him back in when he was content without shoes in the field, and started lightly riding him out. Again, round fields to start with, then progressing to short amount of roadwork and then increasing it slowly.
About 6-8 months on, it got to the point where he'd happily hack over any ground. I was quite happy with him barefoot...but then we moved and had a lot of flinty ground on our new hacking and never really got 'happy' being ridden on it. I kept at it trying to condition him over it like the start, but it was just too sharp for him. So the fronts went back on.
Kept a set on for 9 week periods after that, his foot had completely changed shape during being unshod and had heels again [he had boxy hinds and flat fronts]. Previous shoes would stay on for about 2 weeks maximum, before his hoof would crumble and crack round the clenches. Ran out of places to renail each time which in turn was just ruining his feet more. Hence my reason for saying 'sod it' and taking his shoes off to start with.
Granted, he's back to being shod in front, but, it's not necessary been a 'fail' him being barefoot, as his feet are stronger and much better shaped from it now! He can actually be shod again, which is a miracle to me lol. Fortnightly farrier visits were killing my bank ccount!
zaminda
Well-Known Member
Our ex farrier crippled our horse when he took it shoes off by taking off too much foot. We had to leave him in the field rather than take him up the track for several weeks until enough foot had grown back. We never used this farrier again.
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
Well in my case he probably wouldn't be out 24/7 and night turnout is nicer that being in a turnout paddock with no shade trying to get away from the flies. Lots of people at the yard go onto night turnout in the summer, shod or barefoot.
But I would worry that if they are being affected by the grass could go from mild footiness to an acute laminitic attack without the early warning signs being spotted.
Oberon
Well-Known Member
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I'll wait to hear from you when your two year old is a four year old before I will bother taking much notice of this unnecessarily rude posting Terri.
"Same diet" does not mean it will have the same effect on a different horse. My three (now two, lost one recently) all had the same diet and I got three different responses - one solid out 24/7, one solid as long as not out daytime and one borderline going lami even in during the day. Good luck.
And a good diet has been a good diet since the dawn of time. But with manufacturers pushing the marketing of sugared muesli down horse-owners throats like there is no tomorrow, the rules of good feeding have been lost, and all we are doing is bringing it back to the attention of people who didn't grow up around horses and don't know it. You are not one of them. Thank your lucky stars.
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Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
Really? I've got the diet. I want to learn about barefoot more and yet when something is either black or white I get a little suspicious. I find it rude that people are ok with basically making the assumption that almost every horse made more comfortable with shoes is waiting to die of laminitis.
If you have before and after x rays of a horse that ended up with a thicker sole and correct hoof angles due to wide aluminium shoes and pour in pads after just 6 weeks is that wrong? You have no issues with crumbly feet or feet that can't hold nails. This is what is hard for me to grasp. And I find it rude when I've gone on about exactly what I've seen to be told it's diet when that has been a constant for all of them. But the only difference has been farrier care. But no I get it's the diet. WTH?
It's why I don't really ask because my question isn't easily answered with "DIET". I wanted to know beyond diet if things I had done to my horses in my stupidity with thinking every horse needed trimmed every 4-6 weeks. Farriers are happy to take my money and don't care. Only til I got one that said it's unnecessary so long as we watch how the feet are progressing. Case in point the first of my horses to ever get a light rasp once in October and then again in June. That was 8 months of letting the foot dictate what happens instead of a farrier who really wants his 30 euro.
Terri
If you have before and after x rays of a horse that ended up with a thicker sole and correct hoof angles due to wide aluminium shoes and pour in pads after just 6 weeks is that wrong? You have no issues with crumbly feet or feet that can't hold nails. This is what is hard for me to grasp. And I find it rude when I've gone on about exactly what I've seen to be told it's diet when that has been a constant for all of them. But the only difference has been farrier care. But no I get it's the diet. WTH?
It's why I don't really ask because my question isn't easily answered with "DIET". I wanted to know beyond diet if things I had done to my horses in my stupidity with thinking every horse needed trimmed every 4-6 weeks. Farriers are happy to take my money and don't care. Only til I got one that said it's unnecessary so long as we watch how the feet are progressing. Case in point the first of my horses to ever get a light rasp once in October and then again in June. That was 8 months of letting the foot dictate what happens instead of a farrier who really wants his 30 euro.
Terri
Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
I am sorry if I have been seen as rude. I want to know beyond diet if other things are a factor because I don't know. I too have ones that can handle varying amounts of grass. My older mare can handle 14 hours as well as the 2yo. The other 2 can only handle from like 10pm til 6 am. Then everyone sits in the dire dry lot or come in depending on weather and or flies. Then they get their soaked hay. My dry lot ain't pretty but it does it's job. I had to put a notice on my Facebook because people thought me cruel for keeping my horses in basically dirt.
And I will tell you something else. I think these mild rainy climates are the absolute worst for trying to keep horses. At least in America you can look forward to some drought conditions in summer and winter which makes horse keeping that bit easier. And by far, this is one of the worst years for growing patterns that I can remember. But I don't wait for things to happen, I get started before I could have issues if that makes sense.
Terri
And I will tell you something else. I think these mild rainy climates are the absolute worst for trying to keep horses. At least in America you can look forward to some drought conditions in summer and winter which makes horse keeping that bit easier. And by far, this is one of the worst years for growing patterns that I can remember. But I don't wait for things to happen, I get started before I could have issues if that makes sense.
Terri
Oberon
Well-Known Member
I'm sure you can appreciate that giving advice via a forum can only yield so much detail. Any more than that and you need hands on help.
I understand your frustration but lashing out at those of us who do the best we can via a forum is a bit harsh.
Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
Ok guilty!!! I apologised! I'm pretty sure I've been quite humble in my ignorance costing my horses their earlier issues. Having seen the difference in how the 2yo's feet have developed with less evasive tactics, I think my older ones could have been saved some hardship.
People dispense advice here everyday. Much of it barefoot related. So I didn't think this would be such an off the wall question. The reason for my frustration.
I can own up to my rudeness. I'm not perfect. But there is just something not sitting right with me and barefoot beyond diet. It's like good Farriers who put shoes on are all involved in a big conspiracy theory to take money out of your pocket and leave crippled horses done by age 10. Kind of like the woman in the paper today that fought off her cancer with tumeric. She's convinced that's what did it. Not the breast and lymph node removal plus the chemo and radiation. Maybe it was the turmeric only, maybe not.
Terri
People dispense advice here everyday. Much of it barefoot related. So I didn't think this would be such an off the wall question. The reason for my frustration.
I can own up to my rudeness. I'm not perfect. But there is just something not sitting right with me and barefoot beyond diet. It's like good Farriers who put shoes on are all involved in a big conspiracy theory to take money out of your pocket and leave crippled horses done by age 10. Kind of like the woman in the paper today that fought off her cancer with tumeric. She's convinced that's what did it. Not the breast and lymph node removal plus the chemo and radiation. Maybe it was the turmeric only, maybe not.
Terri
Mitchyden
Well-Known Member
Even though it doesn't seem to make much difference if any to Lana being in during the day, I feel that I should keep her in just in case. The grass is really worrying me at the moment because although they haven't actually got that much, the grass the other side of the electric fencing is approximately 4' tall which is obviously how much they're eating to keep it short.
I decided to try keeping her in again on Friday last week but it only lasted two days as the horse in the adjoining stable now has a virus! I turned her back out on Sunday but would really like her in. So should I take the chance of her getting a virus or carry on leaving her out?
I decided to try keeping her in again on Friday last week but it only lasted two days as the horse in the adjoining stable now has a virus! I turned her back out on Sunday but would really like her in. So should I take the chance of her getting a virus or carry on leaving her out?
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I don't understand your comment about " you have no issues with crumbly feet or feet that can't hold nails"
Of course a hardline member of the BT would never have the nails issue as they would not have a horse shod.
Crumbly feet are how ever is a issue
I don't know because I have not seen OP's horse but the extreme discomfort may be due to the wall being very damaged by the nails having been shod with
out break for a long time when the shoes are removed the horse foot is not functioning normaly because the damage to the wall means that the horse is walking on its soles more than it would in a foot where all the nail damage has grown out this combined with the fact that the sole and frog are not used to doing " their share of the work " and suddenly are having to cope with the poor wall not bearing its share of the work makes the horse very sore.
My vet is happy to give anti inflammatories to a horse suffering at this stage and time correct trimming apporiate food and the correct amount of exercise ( which will be restricted or none at first) will be necessary.
Of course you need to rule out lami but a horse with a very damaged foot is going to suffer when the shoes are removed but you canot continue to shoe a horse when the farrier has nothing to nail to, you have to stop be prepared to take the horse out of work and let time and management correct the issue.
all shod horses do better with a twelve to sixteen week break for the feet in every year.
Horse vary a huge amount in how they cope with and without shoes .none of my four are in any way the same despit having the same diet and approach to their work.
Oberon
Well-Known Member
As far as apologising goes - you suck at it
You are looking for an answer.
The truth is there isn't one.
The more answers I look for, the more questions I find
. I really wish it was more simple.If you got all the most eminent hoof people from the world around a dinner table, they would spend all night arguing about what wine to drink, never mind talking about hooves.
Most of the modern dietary advice is either missing or from the 70s and 80s.
Most of the modern research on hoof form and function is sporadic and mostly bebunked by one 'side' or another.
And for every 'magic' cure....there comes along a horse who disproves it
.So we are all scratching in the dirt.
What we do know for certain is that what the horse eats has a definite impact on their hoof health. It's the one island of certainty we have.
As you have pointed out, owners can be bamboozled into feeding inappropriately. So that is the first place *we* look.
A few years ago it was all about seaweed and brewer's yeast.
Nowadays it is all about mineral balancing.
In a few year's time it may well be all about proteins.
This year - some of us hoof geeks have been experimenting with simple salt and bicarb of soda to good effect against the spring grass.....
Diet isn't the whole story - but Occam's razor....and it's the safest advice to give over the internet.
My own experience is that even though I was feeding a *good* diet....my horses both improved from great to superhero when I got my forage tested and knew then that I was feeding the wrong 'good' things for my land.
Out of interest, have you had your forage/water tested? Were there any surprises in it like I had?
FWIW - I also don't think it's fair to suggest farriers shoe for the money alone (whomever you have seen saying this - I'm not sure who that is). From what I have learnt about their training - there is a big old gap as far as holistic and dietary care goes. Their training suggests that it is all down to the weather and putting lotions on the hoof is all we can do other than shoe.
So I share your frustration. And, yes, advice is given on here everyday about barefoot - but you will notice suggestions rather than definates. Personally, I am just sharing my experience and what I have learnt.
Anything more indepth and I know I will try and point the poster in the direction of good quality, hands on help.
maggiehorse
Well-Known Member
thanks everyone , some good points to consider , but as its not my horse i will only advise her if asked , at the moment hes hobbling slowly around field and looking pretty miserable , i,ll show her this thread when she gets home at weekend
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
It is a matter of economics, if farriers told ALL those owners of equines with good feet [that they don't need shod], they would lose 25% of their income straight away.Now, how can we get more farriers to persuade their clients to change their youngsters feed instead of putting shoes on just because a horse is starting working? Pigs; wings ...
They are not experts in nutrition, I know one top class farrier who says supplements will only improve the skin and not the feet! I fear this sort of "knowledge" may be rife in the farrier community.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Yes this now it is you leave school spend years as an apprentice doing back breaking labour qualify , start a buisness shoeing horses that's what most will do shoe horses I have personally come across a farrier who thinks that supplements can't improve feet.
It's owners that need to get a grip and learn its owners that will lead the movement towards a point where shoeing is not the norm for every horse in work I don't think BF will ever take over from shoeing but we will see more and more horses working without shoes but it will be an owner lead movement because it's does not benefit the farriers or the vets.
Just the owners and the horses it suits.