How Stupid Do You Think Horses Are? POLL - part 2

Jumping or flatwork?

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I spose it would also depend what the horse had done inbetween the naughty thing and telling off...So not to get confuzed with the things inbetween being bad, Atleast that is why believe it would be wrong, not a matter of not remembering but putting it together with other things which he believes where right - thus leaving confuzed pony

I don't think that made much sence.
 
You got it! It's what happens in the time between the act and the smack that I am getting at and trying to figure out whether people think the horse can relate to a smack later than "immediately" as a consequence of the actions of the handler in between the act and the hit.
 
How come I am the only person who has said "no" to the trailer question???!!! If a horse has ONE bad incident (as P did when I got my new trailer, and it was VERY stressful for her), then IMHO it won't affect it.

No to the second

Yes to the third

No to the fourth

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I don't think it has to be a nanosecond later, but I think 5 minutes is a bit too long. Obviously it does depend on circumstances, but it depends on whether the horse is hit because it has done something wrong, or to 'encourage' it too. That isn't making much sense I know, but when jumping do you give the horse a tap before the fence to remind it to put effort in, or afterwards when it has demolished the jump? Timing is definitely what makes the difference there!
 
Ah, but I didn't specifiy that the horse was being ridden. Say your horse bites you in the line up in an in-hand showing class. Chances are you are not going to want to draw attention to that in the ring and will wait until you are safely out of sight and then hit the horse.
 
Yes thats how I read it too. I think it is a sign of frustration if people reprimand their horse afterwards.

My horsey is a good boy anyway so he doesn't have to be told off at all!
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And you didn't specify that it wasn't being ridden. You also didn't say whether you were talking about the horse biting or refusing a jump....but that is by the by.
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Anyone who would do something like you are suggesting, must be a dumbass and shouldn't ever be around horses, small animals or children!
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Very true; lots of people DO smack their horse immediately before going over a jump. Is this right?

What about the horse who refuses, the rider has an on-board argument with horse but does not hit horse until she is back in control and horse is steadied; is that right?

What about the horse who has bitten you? Does he remember what you are hitting him for a minute after the bite, because you had to pick your missing finger up from the ground whilst you are dancing around and making gurgling noises? Does he know what you are hitting him for?

I'm not picking on you; just having a pleasant discussion here.
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My horsey is a good boy anyway so he doesn't have to be told off at all!

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Mine too; I never have cause to hit any of mine.
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What about if you are late on the up take of the horse doing something bad?

The smacking to encourage the horse over a fence is hard one, I know I have done it before, but to be fair it is normaly when the horse is behind and clearly thinking about not jumping the fence which could deseve a smack to teach him not to do that thus avoiding the next stage of rufusing, running. Its effective though and prevents bigger problems so kinda in the long term, me thinks.
 
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Very true; lots of people DO smack their horse immediately before going over a jump. Is this right?

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I don't do it, mainly as I tend to ride without a whip. So I can't really say whether it is right or not! I can remember being at a gymkhana a few years ago though where a girl went around a whole course slapping her pony on the shoulder with a whip. It still knocked lots of fences down. She'd have been better off spending her time learning to ride properly LOL! I do think though it depends on individuals. If a horse refused a fence with me for no good reason, I might give it a tap on the side it ran out to the second time. But that's just how I ride
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What about the horse who refuses, the rider has an on-board argument with horse but does not hit horse until she is back in control and horse is steadied; is that right?

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If it was me and I had regained control and the horse was steadied, I wouldn't bother hitting it, but might give it a tap once we went to jump the fence again as I have said above. It doesn't make it wrong or right to hit the horse once control is regained, but if I had regained control I'd want to keep it and not chance another argument by hitting it, but that is just me and my current lack of confidence.

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What about the horse who has bitten you? Does he remember what you are hitting him for a minute after the bite, because you had to pick your missing finger up from the ground whilst you are dancing around and making gurgling noises? Does he know what you are hitting him for?

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Probably not. Still, if a horse had taken my finger off I'd feel better for hitting it anyway
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(I'm messing up my own argument here eh, not that I condone it and it doesn't mean it is right!)

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I'm not picking on you; just having a pleasant discussion here.
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I didn't think you were picking on me Tia, and I'm enjoying having someone to debate with who can come up with sensible informed replies and wont hold a grudge against anything I ever post on the forum again because we disagreed on something!
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That's ma girl!
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I don't ride with a whip either and I don't hit my horses, although one or two of the younger ones have had minor thumps on the neck if they have been a bit bad-mannered in the early days. They're all good now though.
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I'm trying to imagine one of mine biting me and what I would do...... I think I would scream and yell at them, whilst picking my finger up from the ground.
 
Horses are very clever....at being horses and using the survival and social skills they learnt in the wild....so they can remember detailed mental maps, immense social structures, food availability, danger points etc.
They are not particularly good at second-guessing why a human wants them to run round in circles, jump over lots of stripey things (when there is clearly a way round the side) and be kept in a tiny square...
On your smacking issue, at one of the livery yards I was at, I witnessed the YO coming out in the morning and beating a youngster over the stable door saying 'You...will...not....bite...people....like....you....did....yesterday...bad....girl....for....biting...yesterday....'
I was astonished! The horse was confused
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I tend to do lots of swearing whenever mine do anything naughty. I'm sure my vocabulary consists of words the neighbours haven't even heard of
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Horse bit me yesterday - I was chatting and he put his head over and bit, as he was in the act I turned around fast and raised my hand - that was enough...within 30 secs he was back with his head on my shoulder saying sorry - wasn;t his fault, he is 5 and VERY under stimulated, but I HAD to remonstrate as the stable I was standing in belongs to a young girl and I would not want her bitten.
 
Sorry I know that is not funny, but I honestly did chuckle at your last comment about the YO - what a muppet!
 
Totally agree! If a horse bit me then it would be thumped....end of! And I don't care whose horse it is - I don't allow horses to do that to me.
 
Oooh no, I haven't seen your post....will wander off now to look for it.

The trouble is, as you know, I am a rather lazy person - I have a tiny Sony Viao laptop and it only shows about a quarter of this page so I can't be bothered to scroll down to see what the other posts are about.
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Looking, looking.....found a bright yellow rape field
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I don't think it would put off a good traveller, but I do think that the horse would remember and possibly be more tense than s/he was previously.

The palomino that Meg is riding at shows right now was a dreadful loader when we got him - previous owner said he had a bad experience. Well as you know, we travel all of our horses loose in a stable in the trailer. I do still drive fast with the trailer on the back however I am very careful on corners, traffic lights etc. This horse now loves going in the trailer! What does that say about him? I'm assuming that he remembers that now he likes going in trailers and going off for adventures.
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Yes to all but the last. I believe punishment should be done straight away rather than 5 mins later, as it could be seen by the horse as the good bahaviour (if it is being good at the time) as being the thing it gets hit for. Would you tell a young child off, 5 mins after they did something?
 
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Would you tell a young child off, 5 mins after they did something?

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Absolutely! Yes I certainly would. If a child drew all over my walls, pooed on the living room carpet, walked in the house with muddy boots...etc. If I didn't find these things until after 5 minutes, then it would make no difference and Yes I would tell the child off.
 
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Would you tell a young child off, 5 mins after they did something?

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Absolutely! Yes I certainly would. If a child drew all over my walls, pooed on the living room carpet, walked in the house with muddy boots...etc. If I didn't find these things until after 5 minutes, then it would make no difference and Yes I would tell the child off.

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But how does a small small child (1-2years) know that that is what you are telling them off for? You may tell them and show them but do they understand? Not having children I don't no, but I would guess they wouldn't.
 
Well I'd have been very concerned if mine at 2 years old didn't understand what they had done to my walls and carpet LOL!!
 
Dammit if you say yes to the 1st three how can you say no to the last one?

But - OK, if you put it into terms like horses must have long and short term memories like humans. Well I think they will...

A bad journey in a trailer will be traumatic and that would mean they remembered it. Ditto for the person who beat them. Maybe they won't remember exactly why but they know they didn't like it - more an instinctive thing that the trailer or person meant danger so triggers a fight or flight reponse?

Asti gives kisses and shakes hooves for polos and treats. If you teach them - so a learned behaviour for a reward - you condition them so definately yes. Also Asti taught herself within 5 mins how to work a wall mounted likit spinner thing, and also immediately "got" the snackball idea. Byter took weeks to learn the spinner thing, and about 10-15 mins for the snack ball.

If we are saying yes they'll remember other stuff - surely they woud remember chucking you off.... HOWEVER, I answered no as it is a one off thing and they may not realise that what they did caused you to come off and won't associate it as bad behaviour with the effect of you falling off, so whacking them 5 mins later wouldn't work... again there is an "unless" which is that again learned behaviour, if it happens a few times the horse can learn that "if I buck, rider falls off" and learns to get you off. Then he b*gger would get a whack as it knew what it had done!

We have a naughty corner in the stable, Asti gets sent to it if she does something particularly bad... usually throwing rugs on the floor and treading them in. So if I walk in the stable and there is a trashed rug on the floor - she goes into naughty corner herself for a few mins, then comes and grovels!
 
Put it in human terms, if you had a car crash perhaps you would be nervous about going in a car again but if I came up and punched you for something you did earlier would you know what it was for?
 
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