How to legally swap horses??

[Billy Pig]

So I have a gelding who is lovely and is up for sale/swap. Someone has approached me for a straight swap and I'm keen. We are looking to have a short trial period and vettings then transfer ownership of the horses to one another. Without having to exchange money, how can we legally transfer ownership of the horses? Can we write each other out a proof of purchase and sign it? Do we have to physically exchange money so there is proof of the transaction and then write a receipt to one another?

We basically want to protect ourselves from the other party reclaiming the horse further down the line if it's not working out for whatever reason.

 

[JBM]

So I have a pony who is lovely and is up for sale/swap. Someone has approached me for a straight swap (through a friend) and I'm keen. We are looking to have a short trial period then transfer ownership of the horses to one another. Without having to exchange money, how can we legally transfer ownership of the horses? Can we write each other out a proof of purchase and sign it? Do we have to physically exchange money so there is proof of the transaction and then write a receipt to one another?

We basically want to protect ourselves from the other party reclaiming the horse further down the line if it's not working out for whatever reason.

I’ve never been asked for proof of money exchange but I have been asked for a letter from previous owner to change ownership in passport..once it’s changed in the passport and passport company and you have letter confirming change should be perfectly legal?
If In doubt you can give each other a fiver

 

[Polos Mum]

I would legally sell yours to her and have her buy yours - just for £1 to make the contract legally binding

Then there is no doubt and no confusion.

I was gifted a horse a while ago and we still had a "sales receipt" for £1

 

[ycbm]

Give each other a receipt for the value of the horses. You can even exchange the money if you want to make it watertight. You pay her, say £2k and she pays you the same.
.

 

[Polos Mum]

change ownership in passport..once it’s changed in the passport and passport company and you have letter confirming change should be perfectly legal?

Unfortunately the passport is NOT proof of ownership so definitely don't rely on this.

 

[JBM]

Unfortunately the passport is NOT proof of ownership so definitely don't rely on this.

Interesting..does anyone know the rules in ireland? Cuz I don’t think I have proof of ownership for either of my horses cuz all I have is their passports

 

[Palindrome]

Interesting..does anyone know the rules in ireland? Cuz I don’t think I have proof of ownership for either of my horses cuz all I have is their passports

https://www.horsesportireland.ie/passports/transfer-ownership/
https://www.teagasc.ie/rural-economy/rural-development/equine/legislation/change-of-ownership/
Looks like there is proof of ownership through the passport in Ireland.

It's similar in France and there is a central database for horse ownership. I think there is no such database in the UK, hence the passport alone isn't proof of ownership.

 

[JBM]

https://www.horsesportireland.ie/passports/transfer-ownership/
Looks like there is proof of ownership through the passport in Ireland.

Oh okie maybe that’s where I’m getting confused!
Thank you!

 

[PurBee]

Im in ireland - will have to check papers to make sure as i have a bundle - but - when i bought mine, registered with the arab horse society - the owner printed off the AHS ‘exchange of ownership’ paper and it had all details to be filled in on it, which both parties sign.
So you may well find whatever horse society the horses are currently registered to, will have such a form for you to print off and sign.

If not, create your own version, signed, maybe witnessed too if a complex exchange.

 

[ihatework]

I would do a formal loan agreement for each horse for the trial period.

Then if both parties want to go ahead, sell each horse to the opposite party for £1 and invoice/sales receipt accordingly.

 

[criso]

https://www.horsesportireland.ie/passports/transfer-ownership/
https://www.teagasc.ie/rural-economy/rural-development/equine/legislation/change-of-ownership/
Looks like there is proof of ownership through the passport in Ireland.

It's similar in France and there is a central database for horse ownership. I think there is no such database in the UK, hence the passport alone isn't proof of ownership.

I had a French horse and he had 2 documents, the passport which was an identification document and the carte d'immatriculation which was the ownership document. The passport didn't have the owner details anywhere.

OP For insurance purposes, you may need something to show what was paid. Mine have even asked for it when taking out insurance.

I would exchange bills of sale. E.g Person 1 bought horse A for £5000, Person 2 bought horse B for £5000.

The money doesn't need to move, after all if you paid cash, it would just be handed over and handed back.

 

[Green Bean]

A letter of exchange of ownership is needed to stop any potential issues of ownership and comeback in the future. If there is a letter of exchange and horse transferred to another falls ill for example then there can be no 'she said, he said' scenario. I agree with others that passport is not proof of ownership without a bank record of transfer or receipt of payment. It can probably be likened to a divorce and we know how that can go wrong

 

[Palindrome]

I had a French horse and he had 2 documents, the passport which was an identification document and the carte d'immatriculation which was the ownership document. The passport didn't have the owner details anywhere.

Yes you are right that the passport doesn't have the ownership info. It's all in the SIRE database with the horse's SIRE number. You can have a paper card but it can also be paperless now (it's cheaper to transfer ownership if you go paperless). It's not per se in the passport but it's linked to it as it's in the passport that you have the SIRE number and the info they use in their database (breed, bloodlines, microchip number, etc..). When I imported my mare from the UK they took her passport and added a sticker with her SIRE detail to it.

 

[criso]

Yes you are right that the passport doesn't have the ownership info. It's all in the SIRE database with the horse's SIRE number. You can have a paper card but it can also be paperless now (it's cheaper to transfer ownership if you go paperless). It's not per se in the passport but it's linked to it as it's in the passport that you have the SIRE number and the info they use in their database (breed, bloodlines, microchip number, etc..). When I imported my mare from the UK they took her passport and added a sticker with her SIRE detail to it.

When i bought Frankie, i was his first uk owner, this was 2008 i think. He came with the paper card but even then if you weren't based in France, you didn't get the card back but i was registered as the owner with SIRE.

 

[w1bbler]

Are you planning on insuring your new horse. If so check with insurance company what they need.
I did a horse swap years ago & when sorting a quote it got complicated.
In the end we just wrote each other receipts for what we agreed our horses were worth. No money changed hands, not sure this was correct legally but I never made a claim so can't confirm it was the 'correct' method.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have done this .
I swopped a very nice schoolmaster for a quality but nappy youngster
We simply wrote an agreement which detailed each horse identified by passport number and the basics of the agreement that it was a swop of one horse for the other with our details .
Both horses got vetted .
I wrote the agreement my Dad checked it we both signed on two copies that was that .

 

[Cowpony]

Legally you need an offer, agreement and consideration. Consideration doesn't need to be cash. So you offer to buy her horse and will pay by giving her your horse. She agrees. Similarly she offers to buy your horse and will pay by giving you her horse. Just document exactly what is happening and each sign two copies so you both have evidence.

You probably need an approximate value for insurance purposes, so it may be good to record that in the document too, although I've never had an insurance company ask for proof of what I paid for a horse.

 

[southerncomfort]

I'd include in any agreement what happens if one owner wants to complete the swap after the loan period and the other one doesn't.

It might seem simple enough....both horses returned to owner...but things aren't always that straight forward when emotions are involved. Best to have it in writing!

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

Passports are very similar to the V5 document for vehicles. Both of them do not prove ownership. The V5 shows the keeper of the vehicle and likewise with a horse passport. It would be best for each of you to write out a bill of sale for each of the horses & you can put the value in as a nominal £1,00 each. If you both sign the bill of sale & also have the signatures witnessed that should be sufficient.

 

[Lamehorses]

"You probably need an approximate value for insurance purposes, so it may be good to record that in the document too, although I've never had an insurance company ask for proof of what I paid for a horse."
Insurance company will ask for proof of purchase price (well mine did) when getting a payout for euthanasia

 

[Cowpony]

Depends what you insure for. I've never insured for loss, only vets bills, 3rd party liability etc

 

[Red-1]

I was gifted a horse and it caused all sorts of problems with insurance (Pet Plan). I was not insuring loss of use, just a standard vets fees/3rd party type policy.

Because of that, I would decide on what value you think the horses are then write a bill of sale each for that amount. The cash doesn't actually have to physically pass between you, it can be notional.

I would echo being cautious about a trial. What happens if one is injured? Or one doesn't want to complete the swap?

 

[ycbm]

Depends what you insure for. I've never insured for loss, only vets bills, 3rd party liability etc

Don't all policies pay out for loss of the horse? Not loss of use, loss of the horse through death, theft or straying. I have never seen a policy which covered vet fees without loss of the horse included.
.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Insurance company will ask for proof of purchase price (well mine did) when getting a payout for euthanasia

When my stallion died, not put down, the insurance company wanted a copy of the sales receipt. I had had him 12 yrs and I am not sure I ever had one however since I was still in touch with his breeders they sent me one.

 

[criso]

In the last 8 years I have had to send my bill of sale or purchase receipt to Amtrust, SEIB, Towergste and Shearwater when taking out insurance. This is for policies for vets fees and death,theft and straying which was included on those policies and now I have an accident only policy but was still asked. However I don't know what they would say if I said I didn't have one.

I have never had loss of use or had to claim for loss of horse.

Some also have a question that says what did you pay and what are you insuring for with notes about market value in the event of a claim
.
I'm getting quotes at the moment and one has a tick box for how you acquired your horse with purchased, gifted, rescued, loaned or homebred being the only options.

 

[SantaVera]

You need a valuation if you are going to insure the horse.