How to PTS~ discuss

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bumblelion

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With all the recent threads, it's been making me think about what to do when the time comes (hopefully no time soon) for mine. It's such a hard decision to make and go through.
What I was wondering is would/you have them shot or injected? Or how did you in the past? And why really? I'v never had to go through this and have never seen it either so I don't feel I have enough understanding of either. I know a few people who would only have their horses shot as they've said the vet could get the dosage wrong for the injection. Wheras other people couldn't bear to have their horses shot, probably me included.
What do you think? Sorry it's such a morbid thread.
 
I have heard numerous horror stories of injections 'going wrong' but these incidents are mainly before the new drugs came along which prevent these things from happening.

On the other side of the coin I've heard numerous stories about shooting gone wrong including my own horse - a six year old who had to be shot twice.

The subject of euthanasia has been discussed on previous posts and this is the best link to read if you wish to read other peoples experiences of euthanasia of their horse.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=456635&highlight=euthanasia
 
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Injection 100%. My fiancee's horse was PTS 2 years ago and he was done by injection. Its the most awful experience anyway never mind having to have your beloved, best friends brains blown out. After Ushan was PTS he lay peacefully on the grass looking as beautiful as ever and we lay with him until it was time for him to go. The injection is only an overdose of anesthetic so not sure how the vet could get the dosage wrong. I've heard awful stories where they've missed and shot the horse elsewhere...could not bare the thought of that happening to my pride and joy! But everyone has their own personal opinion for everything.
 
I'm of the opinion that whatever method you choose it will go best if the horse is seated heavily first. Problems often stem from resistance so remove this possibility and the likelihood of problems decreases. This does of course make it more expensive for the deed and disposal which can be a problem for some.
 
applecart14 said:
I have heard numerous horror stories of injections 'going wrong' but these incidents are mainly before the new drugs came along which prevent these things from happening.

On the other side of the coin I've heard numerous stories about shooting gone wrong including my own horse - a six year old who had to be shot twice.

The subject of euthanasia has been discussed on previous posts and this is the best link to read if you wish to read other peoples experiences of euthanasia of their horse.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=456635&highlight=euthanasia
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That must have been awful for you. So sorry you experienced it. I too have heard many stories of the gun going wrong, but no specific stories regarding the injection, only people saying that it can go wrong. Euthanasia is bad enough without anything going wrong, but I would much prefer having to inject a horse twice than shoot it twice.
 
Although I think it is good to discuss this, can I please request politely that people dont make others feel bad about the way they choose to have their horse PTS. I know this will be an emotive subject so please just take a breath before posting. Sorry, sounds like I am trying to be really controlling, I am not, just being thoughtful.
 
Wagtail said:
That must have been awful for you. So sorry you experienced it. I too have heard many stories of the gun going wrong, but no specific stories regarding the injection, only people saying that it can go wrong. Euthanasia is bad enough without anything going wrong, but I would much prefer having to inject a horse twice than shoot it twice.
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Yes that must be awful. I will have a look at your previous thread, thankyou, I must have missed it somehow.
 
I think I am going to have to make the decision soon (well sometime in the next year or so) to have my old chap PTS.

He will be given the injection and then buried in the field (providing permission is granted by council)
 
benson21 said:
Although I think it is good to discuss this, can I please request politely that people dont make others feel bad about the way they choose to have their horse PTS. I know this will be an emotive subject so please just take a breath before posting. Sorry, sounds like I am trying to be really controlling, I am not, just being thoughtful.
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No, thankyou for adding that. I did think along those lines when I was posting, however I kind of hoped that people would be sensitive as it's such an upsetting subject, although I should really have said something as I know what some people can be like with their strong opinions on here.
 
I have had mine shot but never injected. If my horse were already down I might go for injection, as my friend did when her horse colicked really badly (turned out he had a huge tumour, he was only two). I thought about it for months beforehand, and posted on here as well. Shooting came out as the better option in my opinon, although not everyone agrees. The horse hasn't a clue, it's instant; they are dead before they hit the ground. With mine there wasn't even any bleeding, just a small hole. Her leg twitched a couple of times but she was absolutely gone, it was just the muscles.

Shooting may be more traumatic for us, that is true, but it is the horse who is important here and a swift, peaceful and painless death is the last thing we can do for them. Admittedly I couldn't hold her at the end, YO offered as I literally couldn't see for tears (I'd had her 23 years) and it was a horrible thing knowing what I was doing to her, when she was so calm and trusting, but she didn't know of course. I brought her best friend since foalhood out to look at her and see she had gone, and she seemed to understand somehow.

The way I decided in the end was, what would I choose myself? I know injections have a sedative first but I still couldn't be sure it would be instant and stress-free for her. I've heard too many stories of struggles and desperate attempts to get up again when they are PTS with the injection. They may be rare occurences but I am not prepared to chance that for any of mine. It is definitely something we should think about though no matter how young or healthy our horses are. There was a good thread on here recently with a link to WHW. They have a printable form you can fill in, so you can make all the decisions and have a plan ready in case of emergency. If you give a copy to your YO or vet or whoever, they can be sure they've done the right thing even if you can't be contacted.
 
benson21 said:
Although I think it is good to discuss this, can I please request politely that people dont make others feel bad about the way they choose to have their horse PTS. I know this will be an emotive subject so please just take a breath before posting. Sorry, sounds like I am trying to be really controlling, I am not, just being thoughtful.
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I don't know how that would be possible, as presumably people make what they think is the best decision for their horse. If you know you have made the best decision, then why feel guilty? Can I make a request now, that if people are likely to become upset by reading a discussion on how to PTS that they don't read PTS threads? The OP specifically asked 'How to PTS -Discuss' which is what people are doing. It just happens that PTS is quite rightly an emotive subject and one that should be avoided by people likely to become upset, surely?
 
Ok, fair enough, what I am meaning is I know how upset I would feel if I had just had had my horse put to sleep by bullet, and then read on here about how awful blasting your best friends brain out. There are nicer ways to put things!
 
benson21 said:
Ok, fair enough, what I am meaning is I know how upset I would feel if I had just had had my horse put to sleep by bullet, and then read on here about how awful blasting your best friends brain out. There are nicer ways to put things!
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I understand what you are saying. It can apply either way though as some people posted on my other thread about the injection giving horses a painful heart attack (which incidentally is no more true than shooting is blowing the horse's brains out).
 
My preference is for the horse to be shot by the hunt.
However my last mare was PTS via Injection as it all happened so quickly and arrangements for her to be shot couldn't be made in time.
It took 3 injections but it was overall very peaceful.
1st Injection sedated her and she went down
2nd one sent her to sleep and slowed her breathing and heart down
3rd one stopped her heart.
It took a few minutes however, I am adamant she didn't feel a thing.
Next time if I have a choice my current horse will be shot.
 
I do think that whatever you decide - and has to be a purely personal choice, every horse owner needs to make sure that their facilities allow for PTS with the least possible trauma for all concerned. Horses should be kept somewhere with access for a the vehicle and winch, which will be needed in almost all cases. There are very few of us who can bury a horse on our land, even if we wanted to. It is also advisable, IMO, to have decided how you are going to do the deed and who is to do it before you think you will need to. We should all be prepared for accidents/sudden illness and decisions made at short notice/in a panic, are sometimes regretted later.
We have had horses PTS by both injection and the gun. Only one has been injected, she was a Welsh Section A who was ill and had been seen many times by the vet, when the decision was made the vet did the deed. There was no mistake made but that pony had had more than enough of injections, which she had never been a fan of anyway. She resisted being injected and the whole thing was very upsetting for all concerned.
Every other horse we have ever had PTS (and we keep them for life) has been shot, either by the Hunt or the knackerman, (lately Equine Crematorium). In every case the horse has died, completely unaware of what was happening, with a mouthful of food.
 
I have had 2 old horses pts by injection, the most recent one just a couple of weeks ago. I would personally never have a horse shot but I know there are people who say the same thing about the injection. They both produce the same outcome and if done correctly neither way causes any real suffering so you just have to do what you think is right for you and your horse.
 
bakedbean said:
With a pony currently suffering from Phlebitis in his neck, there is no way on this earth i'd let some Tw4t with a needle attempt to PTS anything on my yard.
:mad::mad:

Knackerman/Abattoir every time.
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You'll be avoiding all injections in future then, including annual jabs? :D
 
bakedbean said:
With a pony currently suffering from Phlebitis in his neck, there is no way on this earth i'd let some Tw4t with a needle attempt to PTS anything on my yard.
:mad::mad:

Knackerman/Abattoir every time.
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I'll have you know my OH is a vet and isn't just "some Tw4t" 5 years of hard graft at uni to be branded "some Tw4t"... respectful
 
Damnation said:
My preference is for the horse to be shot by the hunt.
However my last mare was PTS via Injection as it all happened so quickly and arrangements for her to be shot couldn't be made in time.
It took 3 injections but it was overall very peaceful.
1st Injection sedated her and she went down
2nd one sent her to sleep and slowed her breathing and heart down
3rd one stopped her heart.
It took a few minutes however, I am adamant she didn't feel a thing.
Next time if I have a choice my current horse will be shot.
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Oh that's interesting, I didn't realise there was more than one way to inject, my fiancee's horse just had the one injection and he went down and that was it, all over. I suppose each vet might have their own way of doing things as well! Our vet said it was like going under anesthetic, they just slip away and are dead before they hit the floor. Suppose we'll never know this for sure but it's nice to feel we're doing what is best for them.
 
Chloe..x said:
I'll have you know my OH is a vet and isn't just "some Tw4t" 5 years of hard graft at uni to be branded "some Tw4t"... respectful
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TBH, yes, your OH might be a perfectly good vet, I'm not disputing that but I do dispute that everyone that has qualified is actually worth employing as a vet and that I would be happy treating my animals, they need to be researched thoroughly. When you're having your animal put down is not a good time to find they are useless IMO.
A friend is on the board of examiners and he is horrified at some that are passed purely because it is their human right to be given a pass whether they deserve it or not, they are not allowed to fail anyone which is a very scary thought and one to be aware of when the newly qualified vet arrives on the yard. Funny enough, I had one here to dew claw some puppies and inject foals for the first time. He was dreadful, made a mess of the claws and needed several attempts to get a needle in; I complained and told the office to never send him to me again, I wasn't the only client to complain about him either; he is now a vet for a large Newmarket equine firm but I still wouldn't have him treat my lot. :(

bakedbean said:
Yes, this particular Tw4t is a Tw4t...your OH on the other hand may not be..i havent had him deal with my ponies
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Your Tw4t won't be back then.:mad:

Getting back to the subject, I always have mine shot but if I had a head shy one I would be prepared to inject if necessary.

It all depends on your horse and your circumstances, nobody can say what is right for your circumstances, only their own.

All anyone can ask is that it is done with kindness and dignity with respect for any other horses connected to the premises that might be big buddies with the deceased.
 
Maesfen, you might be interested to now that very nearly 25% failed their finals at one veterinary university this year, so they certainly aren't all given a pass whether they deserve it or not.;)
Re pts, have had mine shot by huntstaff or vet. One of our current lot is headshy and needle phobic, so not quite sure what we will do with her, hopefully won't have to make the decision for a long while yet.
 
There are more than 2 methods, they can be shot by bullet which is what the huntsman would usually do, the horse needs to be not head shy to do this. If you sent the horse to the kennels and the horse is head shy they will call a vet out to sedate and inject it anyway.
If a vet shoots the horse is is done by the way of a captive bolt usually rather than a bullet, again if the horse is head shy this could cause issue so it would need to be sedated.
I have seen both done and in both cases there was hardly any blood ( a little more with a normal bullet).
When horses are shot by either method they seem to scrabble about more than if they are put down by lethal injection.
I would imagine the main reason being that horses that are shot are rarely sedated.
When they are put down bu injection the vet will sedate the horse first and then a few mins later adminster the injection. The horse stands for about 30 secs before it drops. Usually they go down pretty quietly and thats it. The vet then will check reflexs in the eyes to make sure they are dead.
The vet will usually take the horse from you as soon as they have adminstered the drug in case the horse does have a reaction or worse still , falls on you.
I am sure that it a number of cases where people think it hasn't worked properly is simply that they see the reflexes in the muscles as the nervous system shuts down. I have seen horses on a number of occasions almost look like they are taking a breath a long time after they have been put down but its just the body expelling gases.
It is also common for faeces to come out or in some cases some of the gut itself, esp if they have to wait to be collected.
The other method is to send them to slaughter. When this happens the horse is taken alive to the slaughterhouse. The passport cannot be signed to say that they are not for human consumption. They also have to be free from any drugs. They are shot at the slaughterhouse.
 
I have had 2 horse PTS by the injection both went peacefully!!

Candy had Cushing and at the time had heartattack and that was more horrific than the actual PTS!!

Thomas had fractured his shoulder and was at the vets for 9 week!! Sadly i made the decision to have him PTS and he went so peacefully and at the end looked like he was galloping!! :'(

But everyone is diffirent and will have awful storys about horse being shot and injected!!

But my very sad accounts where very peaceful!!
 
Maesfen said:
TBH, yes, your OH might be a perfectly good vet, I'm not disputing that but I do dispute that everyone that has qualified is actually worth employing as a vet and that I would be happy treating my animals, they need to be researched thoroughly. When you're having your animal put down is not a good time to find they are useless IMO.
A friend is on the board of examiners and he is horrified at some that are passed purely because it is their human right to be given a pass whether they deserve it or not, they are not allowed to fail anyone which is a very scary thought and one to be aware of when the newly qualified vet arrives on the yard. Funny enough, I had one here to dew claw some puppies and inject foals for the first time. He was dreadful, made a mess of the claws and needed several attempts to get a needle in; I complained and told the office to never send him to me again, I wasn't the only client to complain about him either; he is now a vet for a large Newmarket equine firm but I still wouldn't have him treat my lot. :(
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I don't think that statement is truly correct as the vets have to do rotations from around March of fourth year onward and they are pass or fail just like sitting an exam. Its like any profession, the longer you are in it the better you become.
 
bakedbean said:
Yes, this particular Tw4t is a Tw4t...your OH on the other hand may not be..i havent had him deal with my ponies
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It was a very general statement that you made, I do feel that although you have had a bad experience with one vet, you should not lose faith with them all
 
That's interesting MM and quite reassuring too! Perhaps it's for the yearly exams then and not the finals, but he definitely says it drives him crazy that they can't fail someone because it's against their human rights, they can only suggest they need to work a lot more; we had quite a discussion on it (as you can imagine, lol!)
 
I have had one horse shot by the knackerman and one injected by the vet. Knackerman was absolutely brilliant, and I would choose that method again for elective destruction. The horse I had injected had an injury and the vet was only equipped to inject. I think it might have been his first time putting a horse down - he got a colleague to come out to help and couldn't get the shunt thingy in properly. For all that the horse did not suffer, and the memory of my old boy's look of disgust as the vet fiddled around with this piece of plastic was actually a lovely last memory of a real character of a horse.

So either method has worked well, but my preference is a bullet.
 
charlie76 said:
When horses are shot by either method they seem to scrabble about more than if they are put down by lethal injection.
I would imagine the main reason being that horses that are shot are rarely sedated...
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Please, anyone considering shooting do not think that this "scrabbling" mentioned above is the animal "fighting for life". The horse is already dead from the second the shot is taken. The leg movements are completely normal and last for no more than 5-10 seconds. In fact the horse will immediately drop to the floor.
 
I lost two horses three weeks apart. The first was shot and the second injected, both by the vet.

Both were treated with the utmost respect and retained their dignity throughout. The injected mare was dead as the needle came out, she had already gone down in the field. It was so fast. The shot mare was sedated first and didn't see it coming.

I stayed with both of them throughout (the vet has to position you so as not to put you in danger when shooting.) The injected mare went with her head on my lap.

The vet shot the mare and gave her a quick push to land her the safest way I suppose.

There wasn't loads of blood, or drama, or anything bad at all.

I would always be guided by my vet in future as to the best way at the time, I trust him implicitly. If it happened somewhere I couldn't get him, I really feel pretty easy about the method tbh.

ETS anyone worrying about the gun or the bullet wound, really don't. The hole wasn't even a centimetre across and the gun had a silencer. It really wasn't a big deal.
 
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