How to PTS~ discuss

[Crazydancer]

Interesting thread, and food for thought. I've only witnessed one PTS, and wasn't my own horse, and was done very quickly by injection as the horse had broken a leg. So it was stressful and not so peaceful but more due to the circumstances.
My old lad doesn't like vets or needles, so I hadn't thought about that aspect, silly really. So it's interesting to hear other options.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Although I think it is good to discuss this, can I please request politely that people dont make others feel bad about the way they choose to have their horse PTS. I know this will be an emotive subject so please just take a breath before posting. Sorry, sounds like I am trying to be really controlling, I am not, just being thoughtful.

i agree with Benson

 

[henryhorn]

I think it's up to every horse owner to use whatever method they prefer, I speak from the view of running a retirement livey so I think I can say I have seen far more horses euthanised than most.
We have used all the methods, and there are plus' and minus' for all of them
The gun user needs to be someone who uses it regularly, apart from slaugjtermen few are in that position.
Do you honestly think it' s fair to take your much loved animal to a slaughterhouse?
I used to and it was a mixed experience. Most hadn't a clue why they were there, a few smelled death as tney left the lorry and were terrified.
One Bristol based s/h left me so furious at their rough handling and uncaring attitude I vowed never to use that method again.
The local hunt are good but remember you may be left with thick blood to clear up..
Our method is the vet sedates the horse who is able to nibble from a bucket, it's then given an overdose of anaesthetic and it crumples quietly to the ground, where a drug to stop the heart is administered and they peacefully die.
Trust me, in probably watching this literally dozens of times, done correctly it's the gentlest method.
You must do as you feel is best, but the least upsetting way for the horse and the majority of owners is the injection.

 

[ElphabaFae]

ETS anyone worrying about the gun or the bullet wound, really don't. The hole wasn't even a centimetre across and the gun had a silencer. It really wasn't a big deal.

Out of interest, is the use of a silencer standard? I think I personally would always lean towards injection, because I would want to be there at the end and I simply wouldn't be able to cope with a loud bang of a gun and the last thing I would want to do is make the horse nervous in anyway with me having a complete freak out at the noise

That must sound horribly selfish, but ever since I was a child, I've had a horrible fear of having to have my future horse shoot because of the noise. Although I would always pick the most suitable method for the horse in question or the situation.

 

[SusannaF]

I have heard numerous horror stories of injections 'going wrong' but these incidents are mainly before the new drugs came along which prevent these things from happening.

I was talking about this with my uncle, who's a (now retired) large animal vet, and he said the new injections were pretty foolproof. He hated shooting horses though.
He'd also seen a horse become hysterical just at the scent of the knackerman, but as Henryhorn says, not all horses have that reaction.

 

[JoBird]

"The horse hasn't a clue, it's instant; they are dead before they hit the ground."Agree with Nudibranch.
I saw a horse struggle when injected and I think it must be confused as it starts to feel odd and worry about in what order things are paralised. I had my dearest horse shot because, as Nudibranch said, if I had to chose how to die, I would rather be shot in the brain which has no feelings and I wouldnt know a thing, than feel "odd" and try and fight it. Just my opinion and I also agree it can be more traumatic to watch the gun than the injection. I lived on a farm for a while and had to watch many many bull calves shot, really sad but at least I can honestly say they didnt suffer even for a milisecond.

Disposal is SO much more expensive too with lethal injection. It is a very personal and distressing thing and a good discussion as it is something we will all face and all have differing views on. x

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I have seen many horses PTS over the years and having to go up to yard and see the trail of blood where dragged in is not for me.. i have had 2 pts by injection peacefull way. also i could be with them both died in my arms.

with the bullet i would here that shot for the rest of my life, also seing horse drop down i could never do that and could not be with them to the end


soooooooooooo Injection is the ONLY way i will ever use


and one poor horse i knew was shot ( badly by vet ) and the brain half came out and had to be shot again .


non of the horses by injection including my own ever struggled they were sedated first just like a normal injection then the lethal dose

 

[Black_Horse_White]

I had my Taz PTS in January by injection and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. It was very quick and peaceful.

 

[competitiondiva]

Having witnessed both I'd say shot, most vets nowadays don't carry immobilon, therefore injection takes a few syringes to do in full, therefore takes a little while, shooting from experience is instant, but then I suppose it depends who you have do it, as many vets nowadays also don't carry firearms!

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

well when bonnie and Biscuit were PTS by injection it was just a bit of sedation then 1 injection

It was NOT A FEW as previously mentioned one only they just went to sleep.

 

[Holly Hocks]

I'll have you know my OH is a vet and isn't just "some Tw4t" 5 years of hard graft at uni to be branded "some Tw4t"... respectful

I'm afraid, Chloe that I agree with BB to be honest. I had my horse at hospital last year where a specialist vet who has written veterinary papers which have been used around the world was in charge of my horse. Due to this vet's incompetence, I nearly lost my horse. Why? Because they couldn't diagnose a tooth abscess - despite me and my own vet at home telling her it was. They wanted to look for something more, rather than treating what was so obvious. So world renowned vet/lecturer - whatever - I have no more respect for this vet than a dog turd. In fact I would rather travel to the other end of the country than have my horse in their care.
And you know what? I had to pay for all their misdiagnosis, incompetence and all the treatment my horse needed because of their ******* up.
So vet's don't just deserve respect - five years in vet school doesn't mean that you automatically get "respect".
There are only two vets who get my respect. They are the ones who listen to me as an owner (because being with the horse every day, believe it or not, I know my horses better than anyone), those who admit it when they don't know something, instead of talking bull54!t, and those who give me choices and help me make an educated decision regarding treatment.
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I get really annoyed when someone thinks that just because someone has been to university, they deserve respect for it!

 

[Pale Rider]

I've read all these posts, and a lot of the previous threads.

Apart from the horror stories where things go wrong, which I feel you need to discount, as this is not the norm. I prefer the bullet.

I always have horses shot. This is because I want what, I feel is best for the horse, not for me. The bullet is 99% of the time instant and the horse is dead before it hits the floor. The noise or blood is upsetting for me, not the horse, so I'll stand that knowing I've done, what I think, is the best for the horse.

Where friends cannot bring themselves to be with their horse in his last moment, I have been there for them. It's not pleasant, obviously, but if you keep animals then I feel you have a responsibility to do what you think is best for them.

 

[Chloe..x]

I'm afraid, Chloe that I agree with BB to be honest. I had my horse at hospital last year where a specialist vet who has written veterinary papers which have been used around the world was in charge of my horse. Due to this vet's incompetence, I nearly lost my horse. Why? Because they couldn't diagnose a tooth abscess - despite me and my own vet at home telling her it was. They wanted to look for something more, rather than treating what was so obvious. So world renowned vet/lecturer - whatever - I have no more respect for this vet than a dog turd. In fact I would rather travel to the other end of the country than have my horse in their care.
And you know what? I had to pay for all their misdiagnosis, incompetence and all the treatment my horse needed because of their ******* up.
So vet's don't just deserve respect - five years in vet school doesn't mean that you automatically get "respect".
There are only two vets who get my respect. They are the ones who listen to me as an owner (because being with the horse every day, believe it or not, I know my horses better than anyone), those who admit it when they don't know something, instead of talking bull54!t, and those who give me choices and help me make an educated decision regarding treatment.
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I get really annoyed when someone thinks that just because someone has been to university, they deserve respect for it!

Of course they deserve respect, if they didn't go through the five years of studying then we wouldn't have vets would we?!
And i'm not being funny like but just because "you're an owner" doesn't mean you will be able to diagnose specific illnesses and ailments does it.

Makes me laugh when people think they know more than the vet, you get the same in hospitals as well.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

the injection is barbaric.

right then so their yearly jabs are barbaric too?? the horse is used to jabs they have one every year and in between if they need a top up due to surgery.

I Will Never use the GUN I have seen to many horrific incidents with the gun brain coming out vet missed or horse moved so shot twice blood left behind,
I like to sit with my horse at the end and let them go while in my arms other horses hearing or seeing the commotion Never to the gun
I have seen horses shot since the 1970,s and seen more peaceful ends to horses than the gun that's about 40 years worth and when they started using the injection in Scotland was the first a vet on its a vet life it was peaceful only years later did we down south get the option.

AT THE END OF THE DAY:

We have out dogs cats hamsters etc injected to PTS for years and years and years and years. no difference with a horse except large quantity drug so that means putting a cat to sleep by injection is barbaric????????? you wanna shoot that too???? that will be the day

 

[Wagtail]

Mine will be shot, fast and effective, I will NOT Ever use the injection, I have seen it go wrong more times than right, the injection is barbaric.

Can you give examples of what you have personally witnessed?

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

No i haven't that means in the 45 years of being around horses non have gone wrong that's a good % where as i have seen loads shot wrong

all i have heard from 1 person is the horse twitched a bit

You sound like a bloke in the way you type men are or think more that way non of my horses will ever go to knacker man they deserve respect and dignified end in cremation .

without getting to grose apologies to others I do not want to go up to the yard and see a trail of blood which is all that's left of my horse
and know they have been put on a truck covered in blood on top of other dead animals to go off to hunt
NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS or go to Germany to be eaten grosssssssssss

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

your quote

. If your vet has missed then he simply should not be allowed to perform this act.

I have seen 6 injections go wrong at the same yard, twice the vet gave the injections in the wrong order and both horses fitted, one then had a fatal heart attack, One has been so upset the vet could not get the injection in and his already broken leg was made far worse,

my post

I have seen to many horrific incidents with the gun brain coming out vet missed or horse moved so shot twice blood left behind,

again due to vets mistake


which I surmise between the 2 of us we have both seen
both methods fail due to vet, I think this is a good time to put this to rest .

 

[Wolfie]

I have had two PTS by injection. One was down with liver failure, the other had a broken leg. The first just went to sleep, the second dropped very quickly and was gone in seconds. I was only 15 when I made the decision to have the first horse put down, really don't think I could have coped with the gun.

 

[Mbronze]

From what I have read on here, I am so glad I can trust my vet!

I had my old boy PTS by injection in Dec last year, he was 32 and his body just couldn't keep up with him in the end. It is one of the most saddest yet peaceful moment I have ever had with him.

My vet was brilliant. We let him have his morning graze with his friends and then in the afternoon took him aside in the same field and gave him the first injection which made him very drowsy and then the 2nd injection. He gently swayed onto his knees and onto his side and fell asleep, I'll never forget it, it wasn't a horrible moment it was just so very sad to loose a best friend.

 

[wilde2]

I had my horse PTS July 2 years ago. Before I did (it was cancer so not urgent), I read all the forums and links and horror stories on both sides to try and decide the best route to take. It made my sick with worry as all I could picture was the worst scenarios for him, all I wanted to do was make the right decision at what was obviously a heartbreaking time anyway. The problem is, I think even if you have a preferred method, you may need to change when it becomes relevant because of circumstances - I think both methods have pros and cons. My boy was PTS by injection in the end and it was very peaceful. We did let his field mate (for over 10 years) see him afterwards - and I do think this made a difference to field mate because they could not be separated and he would normally call if out of sight for a second. Its a horrible time for anyone, I agree that you need to make an informed decision - but try not to torture yourself with the horror stories - I think its the expertise of the person involved that makes a difference. I would recommend talking to whoever first well in advance so you know what to expect too - again preferably when you are not just about to go through it so you can consider their responses in a less fraught state of mind. Not sure if I have got across what I meant to!

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

have got an amazing vets practice.

She started out working for a practice then set up her practice 2 miles from me its gr8 in an emergency, and she now is soon to open her 4th practice not bad for a girl or lady in her mid 30s, all the vets specialize in one field or another, The vet who started it all was the one who actually put my mare to sleep she was her first and saw how peaceful she went that she put her own aged pony down the following week.

one vet practice in the past were called due to biscuit jumping the wire and taking all her flesh off her knee down to the bone and veins they said oh we have to finish day surgery before we can come out 4hrs later 5 phone calls they came by that time her leg like an elephant i was not amused they also said to a livery we dont know whats wrong with him its not navicular but we will treat it as such .

so Glad ****** ******* are my vets been brilliant with Diamonds reoccurring Uveitis

 

[Wagtail]

I have seen 6 injections go wrong at the same yard,

Blimey! I hope the whole practice has been struck off. 6 botched injections at one yard! Crikey. I hope you reported them to the rsvs.

 

[Magicmillbrook]

Very interesting post if you care to read past the bitching.

I have two ponies who are now in their twenties so this is something I have been thinking about. If you do euthanase where is the best place to do it? I guess the vehicle needs to get right up to the horse to winch it on. I dont like the thought of my friend going down on concrete and the stable is out of the question.

In response to the vet issue, If it was a planned proceedure I think I would request one of the senior/most experienced vets.

Got a lump in my throat just thinking about it all

 

[wilde2]

Magicmillbrook - I know what you mean, it brought a tear to my eye replying. We were "lucky", they had access in a big field - so he had the morning out grazing with his friend, then we caught them both and vet did everything in the field. It was summer so no problem driving into field. Afterwards, we led field mate over and then brought him in before the company came to collect him. Our YO was very supportive and helpful too - offered to be around, and was arranged when no one else on the yard. I think because we were able to plan it, that helped. It was booked a week ahead though, which was deliberate but very hard.

 

[Bosworth]

I have had 4 PTS by injection, all very quiet, peaceful. but my vet is brilliant i trust him implicitly. I have a back drive, with lovely big verges on each side, so we let the horses graze on the grass, then the vet PTs on the verge. Cremtor reverse down the drive afterwards, park against the grass and winch into the lorry. an empty lorry is used for every horse.

 

[henryhorn]

I should have said, I read a study in a vet forum a while back that said they had decided horses retained brain awareness longer after being shot than any other method. That made me choose an injection method too.

 

[Holly Hocks]

Of course they deserve respect, if they didn't go through the five years of studying then we wouldn't have vets would we?!
And i'm not being funny like but just because "you're an owner" doesn't mean you will be able to diagnose specific illnesses and ailments does it.

Makes me laugh when people think they know more than the vet, you get the same in hospitals as well.

Read my post - well respected, renowned vet botched up big time. Yes my own vet and myself did know better than hospital vet and as a result of this top vet's incompetence I nearly lost my horse. So you consider that is ok do you? You want me to respect a vet that wouldn't listen, even though the diagnosis was staring in everyone else's face?

And to be honest, I don't have to respect anyone who I am paying extortionate money to for a service. I am their customer and I pay for a service - it should be the right service.

Oh and I went through several years of studying and training however I don't feel that I deserve respect for that. I only feel that I deserve respect when I show good results. Respect is not an automatic right - it has to be earned.

I would post the vet's apologetic e-mail on here if I didnt think it would identify them.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

All this talk of certain methods being 'barbaric' is pretty out of order. Yes, it is an awful thing to have to do and yes, the thought of putting ones best friend and prized pet to death sounds and feels barbaric but at the end of the day this act is carried out to prevent suffering which in my view is quite the opposite of barbaric. My last horse was put to sleep via captive bolt administered by the 'red van man' (as we call him)who comes to collect the horses after they are PTS. The horses are then cremated and there is absolutley NO use for meat thankfully . I was just horrified on the day as I had booked the vet to come out to put her to sleep via injection. On the day my horse became really upset about the needle and was distressed so the vet telephoned me (i could not bring myself to be there as i was practically having a breakdown) and gave me my options. I could not speak on the phone as i was so distressed so i asked my mum to call the vet and agree to the captive bolt as i know it would be the fastest way. I was distraught as i had gone over and over in my head the way it would happen and it was so different. With my current horse, when its her time (hopefully when she is VERY OLD and VERY grey) i would like to be there with her as she the best friend anyone could ever wish for and she knows shes safe with me as i am with her. I would prefer to use injection this time as i just want to cuddle her and let her slip away. I could not be there if the shot was used as i would find it too traumatic, not an image i would like to be left with. a while after all the carry on with my old horse, the vet called me and she said she was sorry things hadnt gone the way i had planned but she assured me that my old girl felt nothing and told me that i had been a great owner to her. Her kind words and honesty meant alot to me, i did not blame her for what happened as the vet is only human after all and she did her very best.

Ok, going to stop typing now- welling up

 

[Foxhunter49]

I could not begin to count the number of horses I have held whilst they have been euthanised.
Personally I prefer the humane killer, and that handled by the Huntsman rather than the vet. The reason for this is because they shoot hundreds more animals in a year than a vet does in a lifetime.
I have never seen a huntsman or knacker man make an error but despite five years of training I have seen three vets make a total balls up of the whole nasty matter. On two of these occasions I have taken the so called humane killer away from the vet and administered the killing shot. On both of these occasions the so called humane killer was a safety gun which required a lot of pressure on the muzzle to get a spring to recoil before it could be fired and every time the horse threw its head. Not a pleasant scenario and I reported both vets with satisfactory results - this type of humane killer was an invention of the EEC and was banned a couple of years later. The awful thing was that when the local hunt came to pick up the horse they knew what vets had destroyed it and so it was not the first time they had seen it happen.

As for vets. sorry but five years of training does not make them experts. It goves them the right to go out and put into practice what they have learnt and to continue to learn from experiences with our animals.

I can probably give you enough experiences with young vets where I have had more experience than they have and my diagnosis was right and they were totally off course.
My vet is experienced and if he is not sure he will say so and ask for advice from specialists. He told me that he reckoned that it took him about two years to see where a horse was lame - not that it was lame but where that lameness was coming from.

Two vets attended a friends mare foaling when there were problems - they were from an 'equine practice' yet neither had ever seen a mare foal and neither had a clue as to how to straighten the foal out. It had its head and a leg back. I foaled that mare with both vets there, luckily the foal was still alive because it had been hours of them messing around to no avail. They sent a bill to the owner for nearly £800, I reciprocated and sent them a bill for my teaching them what to do. Neither bill was paid.

 

[unbalanced]

Please would someone explain what the difference is between shooting and captive bolt?

For my pony I will probably choose shooting although I think it will depend on the circumstances as I don't feel very strongly either way about shooting or the injection - in my opinion both are humane and my mare is used to having injections and she's not headshy, so I think she'd be calm about either. I want her to go with her head in a bucket as her last ever experience on this earth. I think she'd like that.

I do know that if it is planned I will be with her, as close to her side as I am allowed to be.

I think for me the hardest thing would be the waiting. I have seen when friends have arranged to have their horse put to sleep and made the appointment for a week in the future. I wouldn't be able to do that. I think when I decide, it will be for that day. One day she will tell me she is ready to go and that will be the day she goes. I know for some people they need the time to say goodbye but I don't think that would be right for me.