Hunting and Equine flu

Michen

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This argument to me sounds as if it hinges aground how driven you are to get out and hunt/compete/train.

I'll freely admit that if I was still hunting, when I was hooked on my adrenalin fix each week, that I'd be taking the advice of vets if the majority said it was ok to go.

Now I'm not in that situation, I'm in the 'better a short term overreaction than an epidemic' camp, and staying home at least until racing restarts.

I am honestly baffled, though, by professionals going out on horses they intend to compete this spring. Why would you?

Because they need to prep said horses for competing, and their vet has told them it’s ok? If you don’t trust your vet enough to follow their advice, you probably need to change vets?
 
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ycbm

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Because they need to prep said horses for competing, and their vet has told them it’s ok? If you don’t trust your vet enough to follow their advice, you probably need to change vets?

No, don't get it, sorry.

If you knew yourself that all racing had been cancelled and that there was a spreading number of equine flu cases in the country including vaccinated horses, likely due to a mutated virus, why would you trust anyone at all to tell you that it's safe to go out? When just staying at home for a couple more days will avoid any risk at all to a pro horse that's due to compete this spring?

Personally, I'd err on the side of caution, because I can't see any downside to the caution. Nothing to do with not trusting the vet, I wouldn't even be asking them.
 

Shooting Star

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Following the guidelines is absolutely your choice. my issue is that around here the local event that weren’t cancelled today were as full as ever and there is no way that half of the Equine owning community (assuming annual boosters are evenly distributed across the year for arguments sake) managed to get booster shots between the guidelines being published and this weekend so it would seem highly likely that around here at least the guidelines are not actually being followed.

We have a confirmed case less than 20 miles away which is well within the catchment area of local events and so coupled with my point above for me personally it’s a no brainer to stay at home for me.

Sadly the BHA reporting is somewhat misleading, no new cases refers to racehorses only and they have not stipulated this, there have been several new cases in leisure horses, the last one was confirmed yesterday by the AHT contrary to the BHA report.
https://www.aht.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Equiflunet-update-09-02-19-1.pdf
 

ester

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Red I wasn’t saying they hadn’t, it’s just that the local situation had changed rather quickly. Several local vets were saying not to hack out etc.

I too think the BHA reports are a bit misleading to the wider situation.

I do also think there are still two slightly different issues, spread and individuals affected. Added to a cost/risk analysis on limited data.
 
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DabDab

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And important to note that the testing resource will have been clogged up my racehorse swabs this weekend, most of whom won't have even been symptomatic. It will be into next week before there is any real view on how big a problem it is in the leisure horse population
 

Ambers Echo

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Ok so in the general, non race horse population are the number of cases generally higher or lower than you would normally expect to see? Bearing in mind that I suspect reporting is far higher than normal as flu is upper-most in people's minds. Is this a spread of the flu that has affected race horses or just cases of flu which presumably occur every year anyway. My assumption ( and I am happy to be corrected) is that the race-horses getting flu is a problem because they race all over the country and come into contact with other horses who race all over the country so scattering it everywhere rapidly. So halting that was imperative. But that for the rest of us who basically live, compete, hack out more or less locally it is really not that significant unless you are very near an outbreak in which case yes obviously follow local advice specific to your area. I know it is airborne but presumably there is a limit to how far it can travel and a reduction in likelihood of transmission the further away from the source it is.
 
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Ok so in the general, non race horse population are the number of cases generally higher or lower than you would normally expect to see? Bearing in mind that I suspect reporting is far higher than normal as flu is upper-most in people's minds. Is this a spread of the flu that has affected race horses or just cases of flu which presumably occur every year anyway. My assumption ( and I am happy to be corrected) is that the race-horses getting flu is a problem because they race all over the country and come into contact with other horses who race all over the country so scattering it everywhere rapidly. So halting that was imperative. But that for the rest of us who basically live, compete, hack out more or less locally it is really not that significant unless you are very near an outbreak in which case yes obviously follow local advice specific to your area. I know it is airborne but presumably there is a limit to how far it can travel and a reduction in likelihood of transmission the further away from the source it is.

Pretty much yes, i doubt the overall number of cases of flu is up much more than average but the difference this time is that it is breaking through vaccines which is why people are worried.

But actually how many vacced horses over the years have caught flu anyway but never been tested for it because they only really had minor sniffles that was just put down to a routine bug?
 

rabatsa

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I wonder how many horses/ponies/donkeys up and down the country that are a bit off colour with a bit of a cough and snotty nose never will get to see a vet as it is "just a winter dust allergy." Especially if they are non ridden equines.
 
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PapaverFollis

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I think someone up thread or on another thread said it's higher than normal incidence? And certainly not normal to find it in vaccinated horses. That's the problem for me, that it might be a new strain that nothing is vaccinated against. The normal strains are not something I worry about as my horses have always been vaccinated. A new strain is a concern.
 

Shooting Star

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2018 had 3 cases in twelve months according to H&H report, 2019 has 10 cases in 6 weeks, many of these before the general public were aware so highly unlikely just to be due to raised awareness.

Cases this year are occurring in vaccinated horses too which is much less usual hence the concern that current vaccines are offering only limited protection and the strain may have mutated.

Leisure horses getting this is also an issue, it is highly infectious, the young, the old and those with impaired immune systems are at greater risk hence the death that has already occurred.

Supposedly it can travel around 100m airborne but as demonstrated by the current spread of cases this isn’t in a few miles radius so presumably due to horses coming into contact at events, through moves of yards, sales etc (recent Irish import accounts for one case I believe).
 

palo1

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It's frustrating isn't it? We are statistically, many counties away from any identified flu cases yet at least 1 local race-horse trainer has been completely up front about the fact that their horses were racing at one of the courses where horses with flu were also racing. Although at the moment none of those horses has been found to be infectious, it does potentially mean that flu could have been brought far more local than I thought 2 or 3 days ago. This trainer's staff of course have their own lives, many have horses of their own and the horses on the trainer's yard are going out for exercise. I don't have an issue with any of that and am certain that everything is being done to ensure that any viral load is contained but the fact is that tomorrow we could find that there are in fact new cases that are in counties that have been clear previously. It may take a couple of days for the news to get to me that there are, in fact, horses local to me with the infection.

I have no way of finding out how and where infection may have been spread out from either that point or another: like most places in Britain there are a number of racing yards fairly locally. For me, with a mixed herd - some vaccinated, some not, it makes sense to sit tight until I know that the likelihood of flu being local to us is either significant or insignificant. It's not about being hysterical, about over-reacting or anything like that - I am entirely comfortable with the risks my horses have on a daily basis but I am simply taking what I know about flu and acting how I think sensible. I struggle to believe that more professional/competitive riders can't factor in the loss of a few days training during the winter - that would be completely naive! Personally, I can't quite see why more people can't just accept a few days without going out in order to understand the spread of flu cases and then act accordingly but I am not losing sleep over it. I just think it is quite funny actually, how desperate people are for a rosette, a placing, a run, a hack/whatever so they MUST get out. If I was a professional I may feel differently but hell, I don't mind doing what I can to avoid a vet's bill and something potentially even more inconvenient and expensive than boredom... ETA don't mean to infer that it may be only racing yards that could bring flu into my area but I am aware that my post could read like that!! I am very aware that those folk heading off to dressage/jumping etc could also, entirely unwittingly return home with something extra.
 

Orangehorse

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How do you think people moving their ponies around, going to shows etc affects the racing industry ?
It isn't just the racing industry though, if it got out into the wider horse population. Mares in foal, new born foals, any horse can be infected. It is serious, horses die from flu and if they get it may never be the same again. Even recovered horses can die later due to damage done to the heart.
 

bonny

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It's frustrating isn't it? We are statistically, many counties away from any identified flu cases yet at least 1 local race-horse trainer has been completely up front about the fact that their horses were racing at one of the courses where horses with flu were also racing. Although at the moment none of those horses has been found to be infectious, it does potentially mean that flu could have been brought far more local than I thought 2 or 3 days ago. This trainer's staff of course have their own lives, many have horses of their own and the horses on the trainer's yard are going out for exercise. I don't have an issue with any of that and am certain that everything is being done to ensure that any viral load is contained but the fact is that tomorrow we could find that there are in fact new cases that are in counties that have been clear previously. It may take a couple of days for the news to get to me that there are, in fact, horses local to me with the infection.

I have no way of finding out how and where infection may have been spread out from either that point or another: like most places in Britain there are a number of racing yards fairly locally. For me, with a mixed herd - some vaccinated, some not, it makes sense to sit tight until I know that the likelihood of flu being local to us is either significant or insignificant. It's not about being hysterical, about over-reacting or anything like that - I am entirely comfortable with the risks my horses have on a daily basis but I am simply taking what I know about flu and acting how I think sensible. I struggle to believe that more professional/competitive riders can't factor in the loss of a few days training during the winter - that would be completely naive! Personally, I can't quite see why more people can't just accept a few days without going out in order to understand the spread of flu cases and then act accordingly but I am not losing sleep over it. I just think it is quite funny actually, how desperate people are for a rosette, a placing, a run, a hack/whatever so they MUST get out. If I was a professional I may feel differently but hell, I don't mind doing what I can to avoid a vet's bill and something potentially even more inconvenient and expensive than boredom... ETA don't mean to infer that it may be only racing yards that could bring flu into my area but I am aware that my post could read like that!! I am very aware that those folk heading off to dressage/jumping etc could also, entirely unwittingly return home with something extra.
There are 6 racehorses confirmed to have flu, there are estimated to be one million horses in the uk. Waiting a few days to see what the risks are to your horses is going to achieve what ? Do you worry as much for yourself catching flu?
 

Pippity

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There are 6 racehorses confirmed to have flu, there are estimated to be one million horses in the uk. Waiting a few days to see what the risks are to your horses is going to achieve what ? Do you worry as much for yourself catching flu?

Last time I had flu, I had to be hospitalised with IV antibiotics. When I caught it back in the late 90s, I ended up developing ME as a result, which has completely buggered up my life. So, yes, I do worry that much for myself catching flu.

Human flu isn't something that can just be easily shaken off - it's developed that reputation because people insist on calling a bad cold 'flu'. Eighty thousand people died of flu in the USA last year. I'm sure you've heard of the Spanish Flu pandemic, which killed more people than WWI.

So, yes, I am happy to restrict my hacking and not bother with competitions/clinics/etc. until we know more.
 

Meredith

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As I have mentioned before I have had proper flu too. It is not nice and I certainly don’t want it again. It does affect your future health and should be taken more seriously. I get annoyed too when people say they have flu when it is just a bad cold.

Last time I had flu, I had to be hospitalised with IV antibiotics. When I caught it back in the late 90s, I ended up developing ME as a result, which has completely buggered up my life. So, yes, I do worry that much for myself catching flu.

Human flu isn't something that can just be easily shaken off - it's developed that reputation because people insist on calling a bad cold 'flu'. Eighty thousand people died of flu in the USA last year. I'm sure you've heard of the Spanish Flu pandemic, which killed more people than WWI.

So, yes, I am happy to restrict my hacking and not bother with competitions/clinics/etc. until we know more.
 

Mule

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Human flu isn't something that can just be easily shaken off - it's developed that reputation because people insist on calling a bad cold 'flu'.
I agree. I've seen people strolling about with a runny nose claiming they have the flu. They would/should be in bed if they had a flu.
 

bonny

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People don’t on the whole get tested or even go to the doctor so we have no way of knowing who has flu and who has a bad cold. The same is true for most horses so we can’t compare years or get an accurate picture of what is going on.
 

Mule

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People don’t on the whole get tested or even go to the doctor so we have no way of knowing who has flu and who has a bad cold. The same is true for most horses so we can’t compare years or get an accurate picture of what is going on.
I'd wager that a genuine flu is bad enough that the vast majority with it would contact a GP. I know I've never had a flu, I have had some unpleasant colds.
 

Mule

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I had forgotten about this until the mention of the Spanish flu. My great grandfather died from the Spanish flu. He was my grandmother's father. The Spanish flu seems such a long time ago but I suppose when something is in living memory it's not so long ago.
 

meleeka

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We can actually compare January 2018 to this one.

But I'm guessing you probably aren't an epidemiologist. Some people are monitoring incidence globally all the time.
Does this monitoring include leisure horses? I don’t think it’s a notifiable disease so what exactly are they minoring?
 

MotherOfChickens

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I wouldn’t and advice is not to unless you have secondary symptoms

tbh if you have flu and work, you have to go see them/get them to see you so you can be signed off work-self certifying for the 7 or so days will not cut it. I had it 7 years ago, I didn't leave my bed for 7 days and there was definitely no wandering about complaining I had the flu, even on social media.
 

ester

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Does this monitoring include leisure horses? I don’t think it’s a notifiable disease so what exactly are they minoring?

yes it does, I can only find the OIE summary which was of 2017 atm (OIE meeting march 2018), they mention TB or non-TB. There's too many results currently!
 
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