Hunting Ban - ten years on

[Kittykins]

The hunting ban was brought in on the 18th November 2004 - exactly ten years ago.

The Countryside Alliance has blogged about it, saying "Those opposed to hunting thought that would be the end, that the hunting community would give in and tail off to take up other, less contentious pastimes. But they had seriously underestimated those who live and work in the countryside.

"A decade on, practically every hunt that was operating when the Act was passed is still going strong and they are all still determined to overthrow this illogical, badly drafted and unfair law."

(see http://www.countryside-alliance.org...unting-community-is-still-fighting-for-repeal)

Do you think it will ever be repealed? Or are we just going to have to get used to it? I notice that hunting doesn't seem to be any less popular as a pastime, but in a way, doesn't that make the critics case for them?

 

[Equi]

s'never been ten years!! Hasn't that flown.

Im not a fan of hunting for sport, and feeding animals to encourage them to come to an area used for hunting is to me sport, but i'm not opposed to it for vermin control as i think it is the fastest way and the most humane (if they are shot they may survive for weeks in pain and end up starving to death...thats worse to me than 30seconds of being killed by a dog) so i think the gov and the hunts need to come up with and stick to a middle ground.

 

[shannonandtay]

ok just my point of view but I don't agree with hunting, but daughter went to her first drag hunt on sunday and had the most amazing time! if it wasn't for the ban then no she wouldn't have gone, so in a way do you think that maybe the ban has opened up the sport to people who would never usually go?

 

[Alec Swan]

ok just my point of view but I don't agree with hunting, but daughter went to her first drag hunt on sunday and had the most amazing time! if it wasn't for the ban then no she wouldn't have gone, so in a way do you think that maybe the ban has opened up the sport to people who would never usually go?

I don't know of anyone who Hunted, pre-ban, and then stopped to better comply with the Law. Indeed, there were many who when told that they 'Couldn't' hunt, defied the Law, and started. Unjust Laws need to be challenged, and many with a sense of justice, did just that, having never hunted previously!!

I'm pleased that your daughter enjoyed her day, but those who would subsequently stop hunting, were there a repeal, would honestly be considered an irrelevance by the rest of the field and would be unlikely to influence those with a mind already made up. Many would consider Drag Hunting to be a very poor substitute for the real thing, but for those who enjoy it, then that's fine.

There's a road sign on the A148 and just before Holt in Norfolk, and it still has one of those green 'Keep Hunting' stickers on it and it's still as clear and sharp as the day that it was put there! That must be getting on for 10 years!

Alec.

 

[Countryman]

I think hunting is certainly more popular now, because people have realised that the countryside is under threat and want to support it. People who before didn't think hunting was for them have wanted to stick two fingers up to the ban, and so have tried out hunting-and found that they loved it.

I think that whether or not we see a repeal-in fact whether or not any sort of hunting survives for us to enjoy in 10 years time or so-depends entirely on whether we have a Conservative or Labour government in 2015.

With a Conservative majority, we will get repeal and hopefully some sort of animal welfare legislation which puts hunting off the political agenda so it won't be tampered with by future politicians. Additionally we can hope for "English (and Welsh) Votes for English (and Welsh) Laws" -which would make introducing a ban again much harder for our enemies.

The prospect of a Labour government-with regards to our sport-is absolutely terrifying.

 

[shannonandtay]

I don't know of anyone who Hunted, pre-ban, and then stopped to better comply with the Law. Indeed, there were many who when told that they 'Couldn't' hunt, defied the Law, and started. Unjust Laws need to be challenged, and many with a sense of justice, did just that, having never hunted previously!!

I'm pleased that your daughter enjoyed her day, but those who would subsequently stop hunting, were there a repeal, would honestly be considered an irrelevance by the rest of the field and would be unlikely to influence those with a mind already made up. Many would consider Drag Hunting to be a very poor substitute for the real thing, but for those who enjoy it, then that's fine.

There's a road sign on the A148 and just before Holt in Norfolk, and it still has one of those green 'Keep Hunting' stickers on it and it's still as clear and sharp as the day that it was put there! That must be getting on for 10 years!

Alec.

I have no doubt that drag hunting would be considered a poor substitute and I would never dream of even trying to influence any ones views as that wouldn't even be possible on either side. As for being an irrelevance I couldn't care a less, we had a good day, the people couldn't have been nicer and I felt I left my daughter in good hands as they rode off. Of course it wouldn't bother them if we were there or not but it has opened a whole new side of riding to my daughter and Im sure others who wouldn't have gone pre ban. If the ban was lifted then once she is old enough to take herself then she can make her own decisions on how she feels about fox hunting.

 

[Countryman]

I have no doubt that drag hunting would be considered a poor substitute and I would never dream of even trying to influence any ones views as that wouldn't even be possible on either side. As for being an irrelevance I couldn't care a less, we had a good day, the people couldn't have been nicer and I felt I left my daughter in good hands as they rode off. Of course it wouldn't bother them if we were there or not but it has opened a whole new side of riding to my daughter and Im sure others who wouldn't have gone pre ban. If the ban was lifted then once she is old enough to take herself then she can make her own decisions on how she feels about fox hunting.

It is certainly possible that people like your daughter will go out with packs that-before the ban-hunted live quarry and enjoy their day. This is good I think, because hopefully if the ban is repealed she will continue to hunt with them because she will have seen first hand how welcoming and nice the people are, thereby dispelling any propaganda about "stuck up bloodthirsty savages" etc, and see how much all those involved with hunting care for animals and the countryside.

 

[ester]

I do wonder how widely accepted people who are not pro hunt are in packs that before the ban were hunting fox?

 

[shannonandtay]

It is certainly possible that people like your daughter will go out with packs that-before the ban-hunted live quarry and enjoy their day. This is good I think, because hopefully if the ban is repealed she will continue to hunt with them because she will have seen first hand how welcoming and nice the people are, thereby dispelling any propaganda about "stuck up bloodthirsty savages" etc, and see how much all those involved with hunting care for animals and the countryside.

The people could not have been nicer and I felt, really looked after the kids there on the day, I was very impressed and felt reassured that she would be fine with these exceptional riders. I personally will never change my opinion but that doesn't mean I go around voicing those opinions or that I couldn't be polite and friendly to those people on the day. We are probably worlds apart in our views, upbringing etc etc. but it didn't stop us having a very enjoyable time.

 

[Isbister]

...
I think that whether or not we see a repeal-in fact whether or not any sort of hunting survives for us to enjoy in 10 years time or so-depends entirely on whether we have a Conservative or Labour government in 2015.

With a Conservative majority, we will get repeal ...
The prospect of a Labour government-with regards to our sport-is absolutely terrifying.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. Personally I doubt that the Conservatives would repeal the ban. I know they have the Lib-Dems clinging to them like a drowning man at present, but even without them, I detect no great interest in supporting rural traditions. Nor do I get the feeling that Cameron and his chums can always be relied on to keep their promises, which seem to be made for the sake of expedience rather than principle. Labour, on the other hand - well, I would agree with you there.

In some ways, hunts have learned to live with the ban, and possibly it took some heat out of the pre-ban situation when there was a lot of trouble with sabs in some areas. I know that still goes on to some extent, but I suspect it would agitate and stir things up pretty badly if the ban were to be lifted.

I took up hunting after the ban came in, and am not in a good position to make before and after comparisons. I hunt with a proper hunt, hunting within the law, and very much enjoy it. Foxes are killed with some regularity, but that is not the expressed purpose of the hunt and frankly I doubt whether it ever was - there is so much more to enjoy about the day out than a bit of vermin-control.

 

[Kittykins]

I'm not sure I can agree with that. Personally I doubt that the Conservatives would repeal the ban. I know they have the Lib-Dems clinging to them like a drowning man at present, but even without them, I detect no great interest in supporting rural traditions. Nor do I get the feeling that Cameron and his chums can always be relied on to keep their promises, which seem to be made for the sake of expedience rather than principle. Labour, on the other hand - well, I would agree with you there.

I'm not convinced that the Tories would repeal the ban either. There are a fair few Tory MPs who oppose hunting nowadays. A whole load of them signed a pledge at Tory Party conference a few years back to promise that they would not vote for a repeal. I remember seeing it and being shocked that there were around a hundred names on the board at least.

Which is why I was surprised that the Countryside Alliance was still gung ho about getting a repeal. They must know which way the land lies as well as anyone.

 

[wench]

There will be labour mp's who do not support the ban as well as some lib dems

 

[Orangehorse]

I hope that MPs feel that they have spent enough time and trouble on the subject and don't ever want to touch it again, and let everyone get on and enjoy their sport, whatever it is - drag hunting, trail hunting, hunting within the law, etc. etc.

 

[Countryman]

The point about repealing the ban is that it should be coupled with some sort of animal welfare bill to outlaw cruelty or some sort of regulatory body for hunting. This would take the heat out of the debate and hopefully keep public opinion on side.

 

[Herne]

I do wonder how widely accepted people who are not pro hunt are in packs that before the ban were hunting fox?

Good question. There is not, as far as I am aware, a single pack in the country that previous hunted foxes that does not collectively believe that the Hunting Act was wrong. Most of them are still involved in fox control in one form or another, for the purposes of keeping the hunt linked to fox control in the minds of the local landowners, so that hunting can resume when the ban is repealed.

So, someone who is actively anti-live-quarry-hunting would find themselves in a pretty small minority in most hunts.

Chances are, however, that the hunt would make them welcome - because we do all love to convert the uninformed...

 

[Countryman]

I am convinced that the Conservatives - if they had a full majority-would repeal the ban. This is for a number of reasons. Primarily, most Tory seats are rural constituencies in England, where the hunting lobby is powerful and if they ant to hold on to their seats it is in their interests to vote for repeal.

Secondly, the majority of Tory MP's are naturally pro-countryside and pro-freedom, and see the ban for what it is -New Labour's class war.
In addition to this, many Conservatives are hunters themselves. Cameron goes deer stalking every summer. He hunted with several foxhound packs even while he was an MP. His father in law is chairman of his local hunt. Nick Herbert, a junior minister, set up and hunted his own pack of Beagles during the 90's. Edward Garnier the former Solicitor General helped the MFHA work out how to fight the ban legally. Owen Paterson-DEFRA minister until recently, and some say future leader-not only hunts regularly but also lets his local hunt draw the coverts on his farm.

Lastly, there are very very few anti-hunting Tory MP's. I believe that there are less than 15 Conservative's who would vote against repeal -15 out of 300, just 5%. Interestingly, one of these-Mark Reckless-recently defected to UKIP.

The most important thing is not to let Labour in.They are very sympathetic to the groups such as LACS, the Hunt Sabs and the Hunt Monitors all of whom have been begging Labour to introduce a draconian 'tightening up' which would essentially criminalise everything packs do nowadays and even mean the end of drag hunting.

We now just have to wait for the publication of the Conservative Manifesto for 2015, and it should contain a commitment to a vote on repeal.

 

[Apercrumbie]

To be honest the ban has had very little real affect on our local hunts. They still hunt regularly, and they still hunt and kill foxes. It's about as useless a ban as a ban can get. So I certainly wouldn't let any desire for a repeal affect my vote in any way, as the ban is not outright.

 

[Countryman]

To be honest the ban has had very little real affect on our local hunts. They still hunt regularly, and they still hunt and kill foxes. It's about as useless a ban as a ban can get. So I certainly wouldn't let any desire for a repeal affect my vote in any way, as the ban is not outright.

If you want hunting continue as it is now, you should let hunting at least influence your vote.
Because on one hand-you may be fine now but many hunts are being harassed by vigilantes and spurious prosecutions-which will eventually include your hunt.
On the other hand, if Labour get in, I fear virtually all hunting with hounds is going to come to an end.

 

[Apercrumbie]

If you want hunting continue as it is now, you should let hunting at least influence your vote.
Because on one hand-you may be fine now but many hunts are being harassed by vigilantes and spurious prosecutions-which will eventually include your hunt.
On the other hand, if Labour get in, I fear virtually all hunting with hounds is going to come to an end.

I don't. The issue is rarely raised amongst MPs anymore. Problems with the Sabs hugely pre-date the ban and are, IMO, a separate issue. A change of approach by the police is needed there.

 

[Countryman]

I don't. The issue is rarely raised amongst MPs anymore. Problems with the Sabs hugely pre-date the ban and are, IMO, a separate issue. A change of approach by the police is needed there.

You would be very suprised at the support the antis get from Labour. Labour will I think strengthen the act. Just look here at these Labour Cabinet ministers meeting with known hunt monitors http://campaigntostrengthenthehuntingact.com/special-visitors-to-powas-stand.php

 

[Kittykins]

I'm less convinced that a free vote under a Tory government would result in a repeal. Take a look at this website for the 'Blue Fox Brigade' - Conservatives who support the ban, including, remarkably, Dominic Raab, who's more commonly thought of as freedom-loving.

http://www.conservativesagainstfoxhunting.com/about/

According to that site 257 of our current MPs would vote for a repeal. That will include Labour politician Kate Hoey. I'm not aware of any other Labour or Lib Dem hunt supports, although i'm sure there must be some.

There were 307 Tories elected in 2010, so there are a good 50 or so at least, roughly 15% of the Parliamentary party, who would not vote for a repeal, not 5%. Others such as Cameron would abstain as it would be impolitic for him (them) to openly support hunting.

 

[madmav]

Newsnight BBC2 doing a piece about it right now, just after 11pm, Tues, if you want to iplayer it. Do think the hunting fraternity don't do themselves a favour the way they sell it. And I am absolutely not an anti, quite the opposite.

 

[Countryman]

I'm confident they won't hold a free vote unless they are sure they can win it.
You will notice that that website you quote names just 6 Conservative MP's who would vote against repeal - Conservative MPs Caroline Dinenage, Tracey Crouch, Mike Weatherley, David Amess, Dominic Raab and Sir Roger Gale. To that can be added Simon Kirby of Brighton, David Amess, and possibly Sarah Woolaston.

However, the fact that the antis have 257 MP's who say they back repeal does not mean that all the others won't. The antis did this research so an awful lot of MP's simply will not have replied-including MP's such as Andrew Rosindell who certainly would vote for repeal. In any case, the Tory MP's against repeal will hopefully be persuaded to abstain.

Lastly, hopefully English/Welsh Votes for English/Welsh laws will come along soon, which would mean we would have a majority in favour of repeal already in this government.

Instead we should look for lists of MP's who would vote against repeal.

 

[Kittykins]

Countryman, I'm more than happy to be proved wrong in this case. I agree that English votes for English laws will help.

 

[Alec Swan]

The very thinnest end of the wedge arrived when The National Trust decided to ban hunting upon the land under its control. A strange stance, but is it? The NT haven't banned shooting, and I wonder why? Do you suppose that it could be because those who shoot pay hefty rents? Do you suppose that had the Hunting fraternity paid for the right to cross land owned by the NT and pay for the right to do so, that they would have been stopped? I very much doubt it!!

I wonder what the thoughts would be of those who set up the NT, as a previously principled body which was focused upon the protection of our rural environs, and if they now saw the appalling state of our decimated rural lives, controlled by those who only have interest in 'Control'. When we eat a sandwich, we eat it crusts and all, and if Hunting is unpalatable to some, then it should be borne in mind that the sport of Hunting was an important part of the rural package.

Those who we vote in to Parliament, and to represent us? Should they reflect their supporters views, or should they go along with their own principles? Principles? There's a question in itself, when we consider that lot!!

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

The very thinnest end of the wedge arrived when The National Trust decided to ban hunting upon the land under its control. A strange stance, but is it? The NT haven't banned shooting, and I wonder why? Do you suppose that it could be because those who shoot pay hefty rents? Do you suppose that had the Hunting fraternity paid for the right to cross land owned by the NT and pay for the right to do so, that they would have been stopped? I very much doubt it!!

I wonder what the thoughts would be of those who set up the NT, as a previously principled body which was focused upon the protection of our rural environs, and if they now saw the appalling state of our decimated rural lives, controlled by those who only have interest in 'Control'. When we eat a sandwich, we eat it crusts and all, and if Hunting is unpalatable to some, then it should be borne in mind that the sport of Hunting was an important part of the rural package.

Those who we vote in to Parliament, and to represent us? Should they reflect their supporters views, or should they go along with their own principles? Principles? There's a question in itself, when we consider that lot!!

Alec.

You write yet again as if there were not large areas of the country which have never had a fox hunt, Alec. It is not necessary to hunt fox on horseback to have a rural balance, as these areas show.

I know you are passionate about rural affairs, but please stop pretending that fox hunting is somehow critically essential to the countryside and as if no countryman exists who is against hunting fox with dogs followed by riders.

 

[cptrayes]

. I hunt with a proper hunt, hunting within the law, and very much enjoy it. Foxes are killed with some regularity, but that is not the expressed purpose of the hunt and frankly I doubt whether it ever was - there is so much more to enjoy about the day out than a bit of vermin-control.

If foxes are killed with regularity I very much doubt that you are hunting within the law. Drag packs do not kill foxes with regularity, Why should a trail hunting fox pack? You have, after all, had ten years to teach your fox hounds to be as obedient to being called off the wrong scent as a drag pack of fox hounds.

And if it was never the expressed purpose of the hunt to kill foxes, doesn't that destroy almost every argument that has been put forward against the ban?

 

[cptrayes]

There is not much point in a repeal, the law is being held in contempt all over the country, by people who then have the nerve to complain about the police failing to control sabs.

 

[ester]

You write yet again as if there were not large areas of the country which have never had a fox hunt, Alec. It is not necessary to hunt fox on horseback to have a rural balance, as these areas show.

I know you are passionate about rural affairs, but please stop pretending that fox hunting is somehow critically essential to the countryside and as if no countryman exists who is against hunting fox with dogs followed by riders.

I guess large areas of the country have limited livestock for foxes to cause a problem to though? Apart from pigs there are very few cattle/sheep around here compared to when I was in somerset and none at all in the large areas of arable land so no need for such a 'rural balance' to be established.

 

[cptrayes]

I guess large areas of the country have limited livestock for foxes to cause a problem to though? Apart from pigs there are very few cattle/sheep around here compared to when I was in somerset and none at all in the large areas of arable land so no need for such a 'rural balance' to be established.

I am in heavily farmed hill sheep country, where every farm has chickens, where foxes have always been shot not hunted with hounds.