Hunting Ban - ten years on

[marianne1981]

I admire you CP Trayes for your well written posts which always counter Alec's ridiculous statements! I wouldnt be surprised if he came from a hunting family where it has been so engrained into him from childhood that he cannot see anything outside of his very naive views. Not everyone thinks like you Alec, hunting is banned, why cant you people get over it and move on!! I met a shooter the other day who interestingly told me he would not have a problem in culling foxes/deer if really needed (where they would never even know they had been stalked) but he told me he could not see why an animal should have to be chased and terrified before being killed - he told me it was cruel and inhumane, and this is coming from a SHOOTER!!!

 

[cptrayes]

Thank you Marianne. A while back there was an angry shooter who posted saying that The Countryside Alliance had been all over them while the demonstrations were going on, but as soon as the law was passed, the fox hunters among them started saying that shooting fox was inhumane because many are left maimed and die slowly. He was outraged at the suggestion that he could not shoot a fox cleanly.

I do try to be informed and reasonable, and I'm a seasoned drag hunter as you can see from my avatar. I would be happy to just agree to disagree with fox hunters who think the sport is acceptable, except that they come up with arguments which are simply incorrect, and use them to justify doing something which is illegal.

They aren't getting over it at all, many packs are just hunting fox like they did before.

 

[Isbister]

It is also clear that there is significant demand for drag hunting, so if there are more hedges because of hunting, they're still going to be there, aren't they?

And I think you'll find that all the other reasons people hunt can be achieved without chasing or killing any foxes by trail and drag hunting.

I've nothing against drag hunting - it may be fun but it seems to be a pale imitation of real hunting.

Personally I think hunting has always been a good way of controlling the fox - it targets the sick and old, and unlike shooting them, there is no possibility of the fox dying a slow, lingering death because the marksman's aim was slightly off that day. A similar objection can be made to poisoning them, and look at the badger cull fiasco for an example of the wrong way to go about things.

I think this is possibly the wrong forum to preach against hunting - as the ban has shown, hunters are quite tenacious.

 

[cptrayes]

I've nothing against drag hunting - it may be fun but it seems to be a pale imitation of real hunting.

Personally I think hunting has always been a good way of controlling the fox - it targets the sick and old, and unlike shooting them, there is no possibility of the fox dying a slow, lingering death because the marksman's aim was slightly off that day. A similar objection can be made to poisoning them, and look at the badger cull fiasco for an example of the wrong way to go about things.

I think this is possibly the wrong forum to preach against hunting - as the ban has shown, hunters are quite tenacious.

Who is preaching? All I'm doing is answering what other people post. If no-one had posted anything inaccurate I would have been completely absent from this thread.

Fox hunting may target the sick and ill for killing, but it is completely indiscriminate about what foxes it chases first. And since hunters glory in a long unbroken run, them the fitter and faster the fox they are chasing the more people seem to enjoy it.

In drag hunting, of course, you get runs like that every day

I struggle to see what, other than the kill, I ever got from fox hunting that I have not had from drag hunting.

 

[ExmoorHunter]

If you are seriously suggesting that your life is no fun if you are only allowed to trail hunt, not hunt fox, then your problems are far deeper than me disagreeing with you on a forum !

You seem to have a fox fixation! Hunting is a much much wider subject and has much more scope than that. For example, where I live we have 3 staghound packs, 2 beagles, minkhounds and buckhounds in addition to the foxhounds. Not everyone wants to gallop around madly on a draghunt which is a completely different sport. I've done it and thoroughly enjoyed myself but also love to see different types of hounds work and follow them across country.

 

[cptrayes]

You seem to have a fox fixation! Hunting is a much much wider subject and has much more scope than that. For example, where I live we have 3 staghound packs, 2 beagles, minkhounds and buckhounds in addition to the foxhounds. Not everyone wants to gallop around madly on a draghunt which is a completely different sport. I've done it and thoroughly enjoyed myself but also love to see different types of hounds work and follow them across country.

Errr, the thread so far has concentrated on fox.

You stag hunt? Utterly indefensible way to cull a sick, old or injured animal. Truly disgusts me. And yes I do know about deer control, there is a sizeable herd of wild red deer around my house which are culled when absolutely necessary by a skilled marksman.

 

[ExmoorHunter]

Errr, the thread so far has concentrated on fox.

You stag hunt? Utterly indefensible way to cull a sick, old or injured animal. Truly disgusts me. And yes I do know about deer control, there is a sizeable herd of wild red deer around my house which are culled when absolutely necessary by a skilled marksman.

I assume from that comment that you have never done so.

 

[cptrayes]

I assume from that comment that you have never done so.

Correct. Utter depravity. There is no excuse whatsoever, in my opinion, to corner a large preyed-upon flight-orientated mammal with a pack of hounds before shooting it. The fact that it is justified by saying that it culls the sick, weak, injured and old simply makes it doubly bad. I would poke hot needles in my eyes before I did anything which supported hunting stag with hounds. It disgusts me.

I hope that makes my position on stag hunting with hounds clear to you?

 

[Maesfen]

You seem to have a fox fixation! Hunting is a much much wider subject and has much more scope than that. For example, where I live we have 3 staghound packs, 2 beagles, minkhounds and buckhounds in addition to the foxhounds. Not everyone wants to gallop around madly on a draghunt which is a completely different sport. I've done it and thoroughly enjoyed myself but also love to see different types of hounds work and follow them across country.

So glad someone has at last said about the thrill of watching hounds work, whichever type they may be; it's totally absorbing and one draghunters don't seem to care about at all. I well remember all the emergency callouts the staghounds get to dispatch both traffic victims and poachers bodged jobs and so on but it shows how little CPT actually knows of the working situation in a moorland countryside environment where you can't just creep up to the deer on foot, as the shooters, marksmen or not, know to their cost when they're left with an injured animal that legs it.

 

[cptrayes]

So glad someone has at last said about the thrill of watching hounds work, whichever type they may be; it's totally absorbing and one draghunters don't seem to care about at all. I well remember all the emergency callouts the staghounds get to dispatch both traffic victims and poachers bodged jobs and so on but it shows how little CPT actually knows of the working situation in a moorland countryside environment where you can't just creep up to the deer on foot, as the shooters, marksmen or not, know to their cost when they're left with an injured animal that legs it.

Maesfen the marksman here who culls deer has no problem whatsoever following them and getting in a clean shot.

I'm sure he deals equally well with a traffic victim or a bodged poacher case.

Oh and by the way, I have lived for well over twenty years in a moorland countryside environment!

 

[firm]

I have seen deer being shot and can't agree with your version. I have seen a deer fleeing the shooters by jumping into the river and swim across on an absolutely baltic day, come up over the flood bank and collapse in the ploughed field knackered and soaking. I have seen deer running in pure panic.
I have also of course seen gamekeepers stalk and shoot cleanly with none of that carry on but it does not always happen like that.

 

[cptrayes]

I have seen deer being shot and can't agree with your version. I have seen a deer fleeing the shooters by jumping into the river and swim across on an absolutely baltic day, come up over the flood bank and collapse in the ploughed field knackered and soaking. I have seen deer running in pure panic.
I have also of course also seen gamekeepers stalk and shoot cleanly with none of that carry on but it does not always happen like that.

So because it doesn't always go to plan, you plan always to chase them across country with a pack of hounds followed by a group of riders? Your logic escapes me and you need to find some better marksmen with more powerful guns, better bullets and longer range sights on their rifles.

 

[Maesfen]

you need to find some better marksmen with more powerful guns, better bullets and longer range sights on their rifles.

But you can't use those methods where there is a strong possibility of Joe Public being about on public land and it would be sheer stupidity to try.

 

[cptrayes]

But you can't use those methods where there is a strong possibility of Joe Public being about on public land and it would be sheer stupidity to try.

It's done near me Maesfen, and I am getting pretty fed up with people telling me that what I see done can't be done. This area is riddled with foot paths. I believe that our marksmen understand how to hit a deer and avoid a hiker.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. and you need to find some better marksmen with more powerful guns, better bullets and longer range sights on their rifles.

I was right, wasn't I? c dear, you really haven't got the faintest grasp of the facts, have you?

Alec.

As a footnote, and really to others, it wouldn't surprise me if cpt lives in the centre of a housing estate, and if asked to provide a pair of Wellies, would need to refer to the urban dictionary!

 

[NinjaPony]

I have never been hunting/will never go hunting/have no interest in hunting- so I am not about to weigh in on fox hunting vs drag hunting- and I've been at logger heads with CPT on several occasions.... but as an outsider I find the patronising attitudes shown towards her- especially in the above post- to be pretty unacceptable to be honest.

 

[Alec Swan]

When cpt talks theorised twaddle, and won't listen to clear and factual statements, then sarcasm (an approach which the Lady concerned has been know to use, herself), is about all that's left. When the Lady concerned is corrected, then rather than accepting that she hasn't a clue what she's talking about, she flies off on yet another tangent, and is accusatory, then exasperation sometimes gets the better of me! I apologise if you are offended, but I can assure you that the Lady under discussion is more than able to stand her ground, and in a perverse sort of way, I find that quite appealing!

Alec.

 

[NinjaPony]

I'm very much aware that she is able to stand her ground.... I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with anyone. But I don't think making patronising statements about someone you disagree with is the way forward.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm very much aware that she is able to stand her ground.... I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with anyone. But I don't think making patronising statements about someone you disagree with is the way forward.

Thank you NP.

Alec, I have asked you to state which of my comments is incorrect and correct me. I have not theorized on this thread in any way that I can remember. I have simply recounted what I understand to be the truth, some of which I have been educated in by pro hunting posters on this forum, and much of which is my own personal experience of fox hunting, drag hunting and living for twenty three years in a National Park which is farmed, has not been fox hunted on horseback and contains a substantial red deer population.

You are deliberately offensive, on top of having deliberately breached my confidence on this forum. Your behaviour is far from gentlemanly and the fact that you find me appealing is in no way reciprocated.

 

[Evie91]

Cptrayes - just want to say I agree with what you have written 100%. I consider myself a country bumpkin, have lost chickens to foxes and would love to go drag hunting - but I could/can never ever understand the drive to chase an animal to exhaustion then kill it. IMO shooting is much more humane - for fox and stag.

 

[cptrayes]

Cptrayes - just want to say I agree with what you have written 100%. I consider myself a country bumpkin, have lost chickens to foxes and would love to go drag hunting - but I could/can never ever understand the drive to chase an animal to exhaustion then kill it. IMO shooting is much more humane - for fox and stag.

I think this is the biggest problem I have with these threads. The more strident of the pro hunting lobby absolutely refuse to acknowledge that there are country dwellers and workers who simply do not support what they do.

 

[twiggy2]

I think this is the biggest problem I have with these threads. The more strident of the pro hunting lobby absolutely refuse to acknowledge that there are country dwellers and workers who simply do not support what they do.

that's why I given up posting on the fox hunting threads on here, I married into a farming family and have always lived rurally but only a small minority of people I know support the idea of hunting fox with hounds, the vast majority support shooting the fox IF the individual fox is causing a problem

 

[Evie91]

Exactly - it seems you are considered not country if you don't support hunting. I'm country born and bred and just don't agree. Long live the ban!!
Now shooting - I wouldn't want to partake but I get that. Neighbour shot the fox who killed the chickens - shame really as he was a beautiful dog fox, but around here nuisance foxes are shot.

 

[Lizzie66]

I do try to be informed and reasonable, and I'm a seasoned drag hunter as you can see from my avatar. I would be happy to just agree to disagree with fox hunters who think the sport is acceptable.except that they come up with arguments which are simply incorrect, and use them to justify doing something which is illegal........

Conservation is defined as "protection, preservation, management, or restoration of wildlife". Wherever man impacts with nature then some level of conservation is required. This might be any or all of the actions depending upon the species, habitat and location.
Within the UK the fox needs to be managed as it has no natural predators in the wild and without management the numbers would become unmanageable. The Burns report considered many methods of shooting with a high powered rifle by an excellent shot was considered to be the most efficient method of ensuring the kill. Hunting with hounds was the next best option in that it either resulted in a clean kill or the fox escaped unharmed. The other advantage that hunting with hounds had was it allowed an element of natural selection in that the weak, diseased, infirm were at a greater risk of being killed whilst the healthy and fit were more likely to escape unharmed.
This is what made hunting with hounds acceptable and is why so many people who follow hounds strive to repeal the ban.
What in this argument is incorrect ? You might not like it and you personally might not wish to follow hounds however this does not make it or us wrong.

They aren't getting over it at all, many packs are just hunting fox like they did before.

Evidence please !!
What you would like to believe or think you know is not borne out by the facts.
Irrespective which side of the fence you are on the Hunting Act is an absolutely rubbish law. You can use dogs to hunt rabbits and mice but not hares and rats, you can use 2 dogs to flush a fox to a gun but not more than two. How on earth are 2 dogs meant to flush a 4 acre wood to a gun on one side of it ?
The hunts advocated the middle way whereby animal welfare was put at the heart of the legislation and the control method most suitable for the circumstances was used.

 

[firm]

I think this is the biggest problem I have with these threads. The more strident of the pro hunting lobby absolutely refuse to acknowledge that there are country dwellers and workers who simply do not support what they do.

You did exactly that. I posted once describing deer shooting I have seen which is the opposite to what you have seen, you replied dragging it off in a completely different direction and ascribing me with views that were irrelevant to my post ??!!

 

[Evie91]

Lizzie66- you make a good point. It's just for me that the hunting with dogs takes so long, pursuing quarry for miles and hours. In my mind the fox must be exhausted and terrified before dying. Don't really like the thought of it being killed by pack of dogs either, but then I suppose I don't like what a fox does when it gets in to a chicken coop.
I don't support any kind of inhumane slaughter, but do understand fox needs to be killed. Still feel sorry for the one here that was shot - he really was magnificent and took one chicken on Boxing Day and came back for another on New Years day!

 

[cptrayes]

You did exactly that. I posted once describing deer shooting I have seen which is the opposite to what you have seen, you replied dragging it off in a completely different direction and ascribing me with views that were irrelevant to my post ??!!

I did not say that you had not seen what you saw. I did not ascribe any views to you.

And I fail to see what you have posted here has to do with the quote you picked up, did you use the wrong one?

 

[cptrayes]

The evidence that fox packs are widely ignoring the law is contained in the report which was written which heavily criticised the RSPCA for prosecuting one of them.

I have personally been invited to hunt with two, sat at my own hunt ball talking to a senior member of another, and been reliably informed by a member of a fourth, and those are all in the north west.

I thought we had stopped this charade of pretending it didn't happen since the report was published, Lizzie :'(

 

[cptrayes]

Conservation is defined as "protection, preservation, management, or restoration of wildlife". Wherever man impacts with nature then some level of conservation is required. This might be any or all of the actions depending upon the species, habitat and location.
Within the UK the fox needs to be managed as it has no natural predators in the wild and without management the numbers would become unmanageable. The Burns report considered many methods of shooting with a high powered rifle by an excellent shot was considered to be the most efficient method of ensuring the kill. Hunting with hounds was the next best option in that it either resulted in a clean kill or the fox escaped unharmed. The other advantage that hunting with hounds had was it allowed an element of natural selection in that the weak, diseased, infirm were at a greater risk of being killed whilst the healthy and fit were more likely to escape unharmed.
This is what made hunting with hounds acceptable and is why so many people who follow hounds strive to repeal the ban.
What in this argument is incorrect ? You might not like it and you personally might not wish to follow hounds however this does not make it or us wrong.
.

Tell me what, in anything I have written on this thread, makes you think that I would say that any of what you have written here is wrong?

It isn't wrong, it is correct, and apart from the fact that you have said that I would disagree with it, I would not be commenting on it.

 

[cptrayes]

You did exactly that. I posted once describing deer shooting I have seen which is the opposite to what you have seen, you replied dragging it off in a completely different direction and ascribing me with views that were irrelevant to my post ??!!

I can't help it, I'm peeing myself laughing at a vision of me dragging a thread that's kicking and screaming, out of reach of other posters so they can't put their own point of view.

Dang it, firm, if the text entry box is jumping around in front of your eyes so much you can't put text in it, it certainly isn't anything I'm doing