Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Koweyka]

It may not be about "class" but I have certainly seen behaviour from sabs and anti hunt that make me believe it doesn't have anything to do with animal welfare.....

And I have seen behaviour from the riders to the hunt masters to the support to the terrier boys that shows they aren’t out for a days trail hunting. It’s all about the killing and the assaults and giving abuse even to innocent bystanders.

 

[Gallop_Away]

And I have seen behaviour from the riders to the hunt masters to the support to the terrier boys that shows they aren’t out for a days trail hunting. It’s all about the killing and the assaults and giving abuse even to innocent bystanders.

Ok.....
Again I think it's very clear that there are sadly many hunts that are continually flouting the law, but that doesn't take away from my point that not all antis actually care about animal welfare either.
My reply was aimed at your previous point that it wasn't about a class war, which it may not be, but neither is it always about animal welfare either ime.....

 

[Fred66]

Ok.....
Again I think it's very clear that there are sadly many hunts that are continually flouting the law, but that doesn't take away from my point that not all antis actually care about animal welfare either.
My reply was aimed at your previous point that it wasn't about a class war, which it may not be, but neither is it always about animal welfare either ime.....

I would go so far as to say it has absolutely nothing to do with animal welfare. The fox population is far less healthy and therefore suffers more now. I get that some antis may well believe that animals should not be used by humans in anyway and that an animals life should be equal to a humans, however they follow this to extremes to the point where animals suffer and then try to make us out to be the bad guys.

Edit - can I also point out that whilst some hunts might flout the law, the antis are out there week in week out demonstrably breaking the law and then have the temerity to say that the police favour those that hunt.

 

[YorksG]

Perhaps the sab groups who post on Facebook didn't get the memo about it not being a class war? You only need to read a very small number of posts and comments to see that it is indeed nothing to do with animal welfare.

 

[Nasicus]

Perhaps the sab groups who post on Facebook didn't get the memo about it not being a class war? You only need to read a very small number of posts and comments to see that it is indeed nothing to do with animal welfare.

I have to agree here. Almost every sab facebook post is filled with comments screeching about tories, toffs, pigs, scum, wishing harm or death upon people etc etc. From an outsiders perspective, it doesn't endear me to their cause at all and makes it harder to sympathize with people coming out with some of the vile things being said on such public forums.

 

[YorksG]

The latest I've seen from the Nottinghamshire sabs is also virulently homophobic, thoroughly unpleasant

 

[Tiddlypom]

It's too simplistic to dismiss the antis as waging a class war and being uninterested in animal welfare.

Many antis care deeply about wildlife. They have plenty of unpleasant nutters in their ranks, of course, but then so do pro hunt.

As for the class war, please don't let's pretend that there are not a good number of very well connected and educated types out there deliberately flouting the law to get their hunting fix.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Have there been any studies done on the overall health of the UK fox population these days compared to before the hunting act was brought in? Presumably the hypothesis is that it's poorer now but has that actually been confirmed anywhere?

 

[Gallop_Away]

I personally try to keep away from sabs social media pages. The level of nastiness is just too unpleasant

 

[Gallop_Away]

It's too simplistic to dismiss the antis as waging a class war and being uninterested in animal welfare.

Many antis care deeply about wildlife. They have plenty of unpleasant nutters in their ranks, of course, but then so do pro hunt.

As for the class war, please don't let's pretend that there are not a good number of very well connected and educated types out there deliberately flouting the law to get their hunting fix.

I don't think it's the case with all sabs/monitors, but I think people are kidding themselves if they think all are in it out of a genuine love for animals. The behaviour I have myself witnessed directed at horses and hounds is certainly not behaviour I would associate with people who are concerned with animal welfare.

 

[palo1]

Have there been any studies done on the overall health of the UK fox population these days compared to before the hunting act was brought in? Presumably the hypothesis is that it's poorer now but has that actually been confirmed anywhere?

There are considerable sources that are entirely independent of either hunting or anti-hunting that have monitored fox health and fox populations. The anti-hunt lobby have never, to my knowledge, carried out any research around this.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

There are considerable sources that are entirely independent of either hunting or anti-hunting that have monitored fox health and fox populations. The anti-hunt lobby have never, to my knowledge, carried out any research around this.

Maybe I should have made it clearer that I'd be interested in reading these if they are readily available.

 

[palo1]

Maybe I should have made it clearer that I'd be interested in reading these if they are readily available.

Yes, there is plenty of information in the public domain if you are interested. For example: https://www.bto.org/our-science/projects/bbs/latest-results/mammal-monitoring

If you just search for the information, there is plenty out there.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Yes, there is plenty of information in the public domain if you are interested. For example: https://www.bto.org/our-science/projects/bbs/latest-results/mammal-monitoring

If you just search for the information, there is plenty out there.

Cheers, nothing really that different to what I've seen already. I was wondering if anyone had actually investigated the reasons behind population changes rather than conducting a simple count.

 

[Chianti]

I wouldn’t normally post on this thread but I support Palo1 in this. When foxes are pursued by hounds they are either caught and killed or get away. The vast majority get away and older and less healthy foxes were more likely to succumb very possibly saving them from months of slow starvation. Foxes that are shot are often only wounded to die a slow and agonising death. An eerie noise coming from behind a pile of jumps at my yard in Devon came from a lactating vixen with her lower jaw shot away. My neighbour was trapping foxes year round and shooting them in the cages he only visited once every few days. Longer in bad weather. Many were lactating, in cub or cubs. Dog foxes without a litter to feed were more canny it would appear. There has been a lot of illegal or just plain rude, arrogant and stupid behaviour by hunt servants and fields and woefully poor control of hounds reported and certainly the governance of hunts needs radical reform.

I think for a lot of people the problem was that if they did get away - say into an earth- then the huntsmen could dig them out and they would be killed. I know that all the methods used now to control foxes aren't perfect but I don't think hunting with hounds was without its negative points as far as fox control was concerned.

 

[palo1]

Cheers, nothing really that different to what I've seen already. I was wondering if anyone had actually investigated the reasons behind population changes rather than conducting a simple count.

There are some ideas in this article (and further leads to follow up) https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-more-urban-foxes-in-england-than-we-thought/

 

[ycbm]

Cheers, nothing really that different to what I've seen already. I was wondering if anyone had actually investigated the reasons behind population changes rather than conducting a simple count.

Good question. The report says this

Two mammals have declined significantly: Rabbit (64%) and Red Fox (44%).

Since rabbits are a primary food source for country living red fox, it's not surprising if fox numbers have declined due to the haemorrhagic fever which has decimated rabbit populations.

I understand that country fox populations are also believed to have declined because foxes have realised how much more cushy a life it is to live in urban areas.



There seems to be previous little evidence that stopping hunting has reduced fox numbers, and even if it has it would lead to a possible conclusion that foxes were being artificially supported so that they could be chased for fun.
.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Good question. The report says this

Since rabbits are a primary food source for country living red fox, it's not surprising if fox numbers have declined due to the haemorrhagic fever which has decimated rabbit populations.

I understand that country fox populations are also believed to have declined because foxes have realised how much more cushy a life it is to live in urban areas.

There seems to be previous little evidence that stopping hunting has reduced fox numbers, and even if it has it would lead to a possible conclusion that foxes were being artificially supported so that they could be chased for fun.
.

Thousands of species have steeply declined or even vanished completely over the past decade. It's a worrying trend and certainly not one unique to the red fox.

 

[palo1]

Good question. The report says this



Since rabbits are a primary food source for country living red fox, it's not surprising if fox numbers have declined due to the haemorrhagic fever which has decimated rabbit populations.

I understand that country fox populations are also believed to have declined because foxes have realised how much more cushy a life it is to live in urban areas.



There seems to be previous little evidence that stopping hunting has reduced fox numbers, and even if it has it would lead to a possible conclusion that foxes were being artificially supported so that they could be chased for fun.
.

The New Scientist article does address this if you read it. It says ''
“I’d say that the most likely causes were declines in prey or increases in shooting pressure,” says Stephens.

Rabbit numbers have fallen over this period, possibly because of disease, and changing farming practices are also likely to have reduced potential prey in rural areas. “Earthworms make up a large proportion of the fox’s diet, especially for their young, in many areas and are known to be strongly adversely affected by pesticides,” says Stephens.

There is also anecdotal evidence that “since the hunting with dogs ban came into force, gamekeepers have felt a particular obligation to hammer foxes as hard as they can”, he says. (Stephens: Durham University). I think it is very worrying that foxes don't have enough people on their side/interested in their welfare to have merited specific research in relation to their decline/spread.

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...xes-in-england-than-we-thought/#ixzz7LY3EnsK3

 

[palo1]

Thousands of species have steeply declined or even vanished completely over the past decade. It's a worrying trend and certainly not one unique to the red fox.

Indeed. It is very worrying but there is little doubt that when fox hunting was legal, aspects of countryside management were specifically directed at providing habitat for foxes (and thus other species). It isn't really a live issue in the UK but it is very much a live issue in other places and whilst hunting may be very unpalatable to some people only very recently the issue of hunting and conservation was raised by a number of scientists. It has been discussed in the mainstream media here: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...fforts-scientists-warn-trophy-hunting-dispute And here: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-puts-wildlife-at-risk-uk-government-told-aoe

I have no desire to go trophy hunting myself but there is absolutely no consensus that banning hunting would help wildlife or conservation. It may be unpalatable to people but there are scientific perspectives which really should be considered.

ETA - I have said that this is not a live issue in the UK in relation to the fact that hunting foxes has been banned, not that the discussion isn't pertinent - which I think it is.

 

[ycbm]

I think it is very worrying that foxes don't have enough people on their side/interested in their welfare to have merited specific research in relation to their decline/spread.

They seem to be spectacularly well adapted to finding other ways to live than in the country and there's no shortage of huge, bold and healthy urban foxes. I would have thought that unless people want to chase them as entertainment, there are far more important things to spend money on.
.

 

[palo1]

They seem to be spectacularly well adapted to finding other ways to live than in the country and there's no shortage of huge, bold and healthy urban foxes. I would have thought that unless people want to chase them as entertainment, there are far more important things to spend money on.
.

I am genuinely horrified that you would dismiss the significance of the fox and it's habitat in the UK countryside. This is an iconic animal that should be thriving in a habitat that supports not only foxes but so many other things too. If foxes are not doing well in the countryside many of our less adaptable species will be struggling far more and that will put pressure on rural foxes to predate on more vulnerable species again (as they are in relation to ground nesting birds for example). This attitude that as there are plenty of urban foxes so we don't need to worry about rural foxes is genuinely both baffling and infuriating. What do you want the countryside to be like?

 

[[153312]]

Hunting really isn't the boost to rural fox populations you seem to think it is.

 

[palo1]

Hunting really isn't the boost to rural fox populations you seem to think it is.

I don't think I have suggested that hunting would now boost the fox population. I do believe and understand though that where fox habitats were maintained for hunting foxes were more widespread, less likely to be taken by fox shooting enthusiasts and generally healthier. There are a number of reasons why foxes may be struggling - loss of habitat in part due to the ban on fox hunting is one of those.

 

[meleeka]

Where I live countryside foxes have had to turn into urban foxes because there’s very little countryside left

 

[stangs]

Foxes belong in the countryside. But, as the article posted demonstrated, the way to solve that isn't making hunting legal, but rather changing farming practices, maintaining green areas and making sure that all countryside species' populations are being supported/maintained.

Additionally - and I appreciate that this is an awful generalisation - pro-hunt people tend to be rural folk, and rural folk tend to oppose rewilding practices that would be more important (and much healthier) for rural fox populations, and indeed most wildlife. Of course, not all rewilding techniques are practical/effective/advantageous, but, generally speaking, they're going to better for ecosystems than hunting. You can't just have hunting to 'save' the fox population; you have to be protecting the whole ecosystem.

What does sadden me though is the implication that some hunting people only care about foxes if they get the chance to kill them a few times a year.

I think it is very worrying that foxes don't have enough people on their side/interested in their welfare to have merited specific research in relation to their decline/spread.

I agree, but it's also a shame that there aren't people on the side of the rabbits, or the earthworms, etc.

 

[palo1]

Foxes belong in the countryside. But, as the article posted demonstrated, the way to solve that isn't making hunting legal, but rather changing farming practices, maintaining green areas and making sure that all countryside species' populations are being supported/maintained.

Additionally - and I appreciate that this is an awful generalisation - pro-hunt people tend to be rural folk, and rural folk tend to oppose rewilding practices that would be more important (and much healthier) for rural fox populations, and indeed most wildlife. Of course, not all rewilding techniques are practical/effective/advantageous, but, generally speaking, they're going to better for ecosystems than hunting. You can't just have hunting to 'save' the fox population; you have to be protecting the whole ecosystem.

What does sadden me though is the implication that some hunting people only care about foxes if they get the chance to kill them a few times a year.


I agree, but it's also a shame that there aren't people on the side of the rabbits, or the earthworms, etc.

I know a number of rural and pro hunting people that would support rewilding practices; there is far more recognition of that than the media conveys tbh. Rewilding and hunting generally are not at odds with each other. Most pro hunting people I know feel passionately about the need to repair ecosystems and of course, a fox is just one part of that. Most rural people and pro hunting people absolutely understand the complexity of the rural ecosystem. It is much harder for the UK's largely urban population. Especially when they are busy tarmacking their gardens for parking and using astroturf for convenience instead of a lawn. I am not trying to stereotype people - those are just examples of things that urban people feel the need to do to enjoy their homes.

 

[GSD Woman]

“Earthworms make up a large proportion of the fox’s diet, especially for their young, in many areas and are known to be strongly adversely affected by pesticides,” says Stephens.

I know I'm getting waaay off topic but earthworms are so important to soil health. I have no idea of the earthworm population on farms in the USA but I protect them in my yard/garden.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Indeed. It is very worrying but there is little doubt that when fox hunting was legal, aspects of countryside management were specifically directed at providing habitat for foxes (and thus other species).

In all honesty I only really see that we've made an absolute pigs ear of habitat management in the UK. The same argument is made for the rearing of game birds yet it doesn't really happen in reality.

I can go for a walk near my home and see plenty of examples of ecologically destructive practices relating to hunting. The release of millions of non-native game birds is an act of ecocide in itself, yet it's in no way frowned upon.

 

[[153312]]

I don't think I have suggested that hunting would now boost the fox population. I do believe and understand though that where fox habitats were maintained for hunting foxes were more widespread, less likely to be taken by fox shooting enthusiasts and generally healthier. There are a number of reasons why foxes may be struggling - loss of habitat in part due to the ban on fox hunting is one of those.

habitat maintenance will be better achieved by less building and a change in agriculture away from monocultures and intensive animal production than hunting. Pheasant hunting/rearing is not good for foxes either.