AmyMay
Situation normal
I think that anyone who truly respects conservation would strongly disagree with trophy hunting. Or at least see it as a very unfortunate price to pay for the protection of wildlife.
Hunting is in a spot of bother
- Thread starter Tiddlypom
- Start date
I think that anyone who truly respects conservation would strongly disagree with trophy hunting. Or at least see it as a very unfortunate price to pay for the protection of wildlife.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
There is evidence that for optimum health animal protein is required. Humans are designed to eat meat.
.
Millionwords
Well-Known Member
A balanced diet need not include animal protein, if it did the vegetarian cultures wouldn't have survived.
Most people have shitty diets despite eating meat. We weren't designed to eat meat, we are just able, thats not the same thing. We cannot live on meat alone, yet we can live healthily on only plant foods.
sakura
Well-Known Member
I know your post was probably rhetorical, but I don't know what people get out of hunting monkeys. I also don't "get" what people enjoy about any hunting so I'm probably not the best person to discuss that angle of it.
Primates are indeed orphaned without human cause, but not in the same numbers. One does not negate the other because monkeys are always going to die, but we don't need to add to the numbers.
If there is any benefit gained to habitat protection by killing monkeys for sport, I would seriously question why focus on that when we could do so much better. Monkeys don't need to die for us to protect their habitats - that is the very thing we are trying to avoid.
Gallop_Away
Well-Known Member
There is also evidence that humans can have perfectly healthy diets without meat and use other sources of protein *cough* and you conveniently missed the rest of my post ? *cough*
I'm a meat eater myself. I enjoy eating it. But I'm not trying to tell someone else they are wrong for shooting a bird whilst tucking into an intensively reared bacon sandwich.....
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
You won't change people minds by carrying on and on arguing, you know?
I am in the majority, I'm sure, in believing that the time has passed for killing, or catching and releasing, animals as a passtime.
The issues of intensive farming to feed what, today, is 8 billion people on the planet is an entirely separate one.
.
I am in the majority, I'm sure, in believing that the time has passed for killing, or catching and releasing, animals as a passtime.
The issues of intensive farming to feed what, today, is 8 billion people on the planet is an entirely separate one.
.
Gallop_Away
Well-Known Member
With respect, perhaps you might want to take your own advice in that respect ycbm. Also just to be clear, I'm not attempting to change anyone's mind. You are perfectly entitled to your own opinion, however hypocritical it may be.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I tend only to respond to false statements on these threads, or answer points people have put directly to me. I certainly don't believe I can change the minds of Country Sports supporters.
The question was asked about meat consumption and in a spirit of openness I answered it and a couple of you felt the need to tell me you think I'm a hypocrite, as if that didn't go without saying.
This picture was taken 60 years ago of me with a declawed and dressed up monkey being used as a prop for photos in a Kent market. Those days are past, it would not happen in the UK today. I am no more of a hypocrite for eating meat while believing this is wrong than I am for eating meat while believing that killing animals as a passtime is also now past its time.
CrunchieBoi
Well-Known Member
Back on topic but has anyone heard about an incident involving one of the Lake District fell packs in which a fox was chased onto the roof of a house and hounds actually entered the property in their attempts to get to it?
Friend of ours down south is adamant that this happened last week, but I can't seem to find any info about it anywhere.
Not sure if he's maybe got himself mixed up.
Friend of ours down south is adamant that this happened last week, but I can't seem to find any info about it anywhere.
Not sure if he's maybe got himself mixed up.
Last edited:
palo1
Well-Known Member
I agree that we could do much better. I think ethically it could be argued that no animals should be killed for sport or for food. In human culture the two things are closely linked, not to mention the way in which food cultures run very deeply and where meat is an accepted part of a culture that is very hard to dismantle. (I am a meat eater too). That would at least be clear though. However it seems that it would be impossible for the world to function, at least in any foreseeable future, where human populations and food production could co-exist in a vegan system at the same time as supporting populations of wild animals and habitats. At the point where we are at, where habitats and species are incredibly vulnerable and meat consuming nations demand ever greater resources, the protection of some habitats through provision of sport is at least pragmatic and has been demonstrated to work; I think that is widely accepted though I also accept that you have contested that.
Even the Vegan society accept that in order to produce more food, we need more grazing animals in order to provide organic matter for soil. That is pretty inescapable. A direct line can be taken from grazing animals needed for soil health, plant production to the question of what to do with that grazing animal at the end of it's life; the most efficient thing is, of course to eat it.
It is a real problem where ethics collide with environmental necessity. I do understand the feelings about trophy hunting and agree that we should protect habitats because of their innate value, but that isnt the way the world currently works. For me, pragmatism to safeguard species and habitats trumps ideology. I completely understand and have sympathy with disgust for trophy hunting but I would rather some rich idiot pay that money and maintain that habitat to the cost of individual animals whilst safeguarding populations and geographical locations than see the only value of habitat to be something that can be destroyed for farming, logging, mining etc.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I have heard nothing of this; it sounds a bit muddled up tbh as there is no such thing as a Welsh fell pack.
CrunchieBoi
Well-Known Member
It was one of the Lake District packs apparently not Welsh.
Gallop_Away
Well-Known Member
Not wishing to keep flogging this dead horse, pun intended, but just to point out, if you share your views on a public forum then you need to be prepared to have others question and discuss them. Yes I find your view a little strange and yes I do find it hypocritical but ultimately it's your own opinion which you are entitled to, and I was in no way trying to change your mind.
In any case, I won't say anything further on the matter as it seems to have struck a nerve.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Google search
"Cumbria’s Melbreak Foxhounds chased a fox onto a householders roof last Wednesday 9th November.
Hunt personnel then trampled all over the private residential property in an attempt to retrieve their hounds. During the incident, hounds actually entered a resident’s house, greatly traumatising both the residents and the family dog."
https://www.huntsabs.org.uk/melbrea...pPFNcRkq56Ro7cNOEa5bRLmY9Wy7MN-PEivdCJcyVwxoU
"Cumbria’s Melbreak Foxhounds chased a fox onto a householders roof last Wednesday 9th November.
Hunt personnel then trampled all over the private residential property in an attempt to retrieve their hounds. During the incident, hounds actually entered a resident’s house, greatly traumatising both the residents and the family dog."
https://www.huntsabs.org.uk/melbrea...pPFNcRkq56Ro7cNOEa5bRLmY9Wy7MN-PEivdCJcyVwxoU
Last edited:
palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes. However if the choice was between regulated/controlled trophy hunting or loss of habitat/species decline, then the answer is not so easy. I think with some particularly vulnerable wild populations the gamble on ethical grounds is terrifying and possibly, in light of the support for trophy hunting by many scientists and conservationists, unjustified. When does a population cull become trophy hunting too? Here we cull deer because of population problems; some stalkers and shots absolutely qualify as trophy hunters yet they are not necessarily vilified because there is an understanding of the need for a cull to maintain healthy populations and habitats.
CrunchieBoi
Well-Known Member
Cheers, not very good at Googling unfortunately. Thought he was at the wind up.
Millionwords
Well-Known Member
Only this, which would be a bonkers story to pull out of thin air, as you'd assume noone would believe it if you told them
https://www.facebook.com/1000646777...PskaLdhiaVYQ3vwayDy9JiQGuBSqGv6XQi3D8Xw5Nj9l/
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
That habitat is not being conserved for those species but for the production of another (unmentioned). That those species can make use of it (they can make use of others too) is mere serendipity - as long as they avoid being trapped, poisoned, shot or otherwise inconvenienced either by accident or when they are believed to interfere with the species being farmed (see eg mountain hare culls)
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
No I don't, but I don't eat fish (wild or farmed) and haven't for decades.
Millionwords
Well-Known Member
On another note....hunts or their followers throwing what are seemingly some type of Thunderflash explosive into a sab vehicle/at sabs, should surely warrant some police involvement.
Its not the sabs with explosives. I've used Thunderflashes and they are horrible when they go off near you.
What do hunts followers/hunts need these for exactly? ??
I've only encountered them in the military and I know airsofters use them.
https://fb.watch/gPsApedmZZ/
Its not the sabs with explosives. I've used Thunderflashes and they are horrible when they go off near you.
What do hunts followers/hunts need these for exactly? ??
I've only encountered them in the military and I know airsofters use them.
https://fb.watch/gPsApedmZZ/
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Sp
Sport fishing relies on the environment being in a good state. When rivers are full of nutrients, tampons and algal blooms, fish die. Anglers literally can't partake in their sport without also engaging with the health of (that part of) the environment. On the other hand, shoots can continue to release pheasants and partridges into the most denuded landscapes (just at the time of year when they compete with native wildlife for food that might get the native species through the winter) and all too frequently do so. Claims to an interest in conservation may sometimes be genuine but as often are sure to be greenwashing. Around me, it seems that farmers who are interested in conservation do things specifically for that reason. And those that are interested in shooting do that. The twain don't often seem to meet, judging by elementary aspects such as hedgerow and woodland management and the planting of anything for the direct benefit of non-target species.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
We have owned our present home for about twelve years, we are three miles from a large town. You would know there were deer about, usually muntjac, you would see them in the distance or find the odd chewed leg, now we have a large population of roe deer, trotting around over the roads in daylight, and on to farmers fields. They have no natural predators, and have obviously most of their wariness, going in town to get a takeaway there was one wandering across the road at 6.30pm, about a 200metres from the traffic lights.
Well you could say that is wonderful until they start destroying crops, there are also animal pests things that attack crops, start doing their own form pruning, they will kill young trees or the most dramatic hit a car on the main A road. Even if they do not cause a major accident, the delays can be substantial.
We are very lucky that we see a lot of wildlife, some of which depending on your outlook are pests, there was a dead rat that the cat had ripped the throat out in the yard this morning. Now I like rats, they are clever and make good pets, but in the wrong place cause damage and spoilage of food.
There is a definition that, a weed is a plant in the wrong place, so ragwort that is a native plant and supports wildlife depending on where it, and what type of ragwort it is, is may not be classed as a weed, but no one with equines would feel sorry destroying plants because we value our animals safety over other animals.
There is an idea that our countryside is natural, when what we perceived as the countryside has been sculpted and managed, animals introduced, some hunted out of existence. Like a garden its been cultivated to the needs of the humans that lived there, at that time. Humans are animals, we just have adapted, perhaps past our usefulness, but we should think how we 'garden', and sometimes you have to cull, to make space to let something else survive. Not doing anything is not really a choice with the relatively small amount of land we have.
Is the roe deer that is dead on the side of the road,better off being shot, a quick death and the meat used, or left for the foxes, magpies and crows? Is the person makes the shot an immoral person because they take pride in their aim and butchery skills, and the car driver who hit and perhaps travelled on just a victim with a hopefully only a dented front end?
'I think that anyone who truly respects conservation would strongly disagree with trophy hunting. Or at least see it as a very unfortunate price to pay for the protection of wildlife.'
We have to face the future where competition for land and water is going to be a factor for all our survival, if someone paying to shoot an animal in an area where the land is over grazed and lacks enough water, helps to save a species or a habitat, I think it's something we have to face up to. There is no nice solution and eventual mass migration of people from parts of the world that will no longer support human animals, put further stress on those that are.
I think 2050 is when they predict it gets bad, not long really.
Well you could say that is wonderful until they start destroying crops, there are also animal pests things that attack crops, start doing their own form pruning, they will kill young trees or the most dramatic hit a car on the main A road. Even if they do not cause a major accident, the delays can be substantial.
We are very lucky that we see a lot of wildlife, some of which depending on your outlook are pests, there was a dead rat that the cat had ripped the throat out in the yard this morning. Now I like rats, they are clever and make good pets, but in the wrong place cause damage and spoilage of food.
There is a definition that, a weed is a plant in the wrong place, so ragwort that is a native plant and supports wildlife depending on where it, and what type of ragwort it is, is may not be classed as a weed, but no one with equines would feel sorry destroying plants because we value our animals safety over other animals.
There is an idea that our countryside is natural, when what we perceived as the countryside has been sculpted and managed, animals introduced, some hunted out of existence. Like a garden its been cultivated to the needs of the humans that lived there, at that time. Humans are animals, we just have adapted, perhaps past our usefulness, but we should think how we 'garden', and sometimes you have to cull, to make space to let something else survive. Not doing anything is not really a choice with the relatively small amount of land we have.
Is the roe deer that is dead on the side of the road,better off being shot, a quick death and the meat used, or left for the foxes, magpies and crows? Is the person makes the shot an immoral person because they take pride in their aim and butchery skills, and the car driver who hit and perhaps travelled on just a victim with a hopefully only a dented front end?
'I think that anyone who truly respects conservation would strongly disagree with trophy hunting. Or at least see it as a very unfortunate price to pay for the protection of wildlife.'
We have to face the future where competition for land and water is going to be a factor for all our survival, if someone paying to shoot an animal in an area where the land is over grazed and lacks enough water, helps to save a species or a habitat, I think it's something we have to face up to. There is no nice solution and eventual mass migration of people from parts of the world that will no longer support human animals, put further stress on those that are.
I think 2050 is when they predict it gets bad, not long really.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
There is a huge moral gap between those who take pride in skilfully and humanely culling a population excess, or an injured animal, and those who pay £££s for the pure enjoyment of shooting birds who have only been hatched and raised for these people to enjoy the killing of them.
What satisfaction anyone gets from killing these silly birds, who don't even fly without needing people on the ground to frighten them up in the air, escapes me completely. It must be the blood lust.
I've also never met anyone who enjoys eating pheasant. My late godfather, who was in a shoot, used to bring a brace round occasionally when I was a child and my parents were too polite to tell him that we didn't like pheasant. So we had to eat the birds ?.
What satisfaction anyone gets from killing these silly birds, who don't even fly without needing people on the ground to frighten them up in the air, escapes me completely. It must be the blood lust.
I've also never met anyone who enjoys eating pheasant. My late godfather, who was in a shoot, used to bring a brace round occasionally when I was a child and my parents were too polite to tell him that we didn't like pheasant. So we had to eat the birds ?.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
this is what I think. I simply don't understand how people can see this as being pleasure, it certainly isn't for any other reason.
Is there any reason why we shouldn't bring cock fighting back as as sport or dog fighting, bear baiting even. ( I realise they continue underground) Why shouldn't they be brought back as normal activities. I can't see any difference to shooting and hunting ie people or an animal (hounds)chasing another animal or bird to get a kick out of it.
The mindset of people with this apparent blood lust just totally escapes me.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
There is an enormous gap between big bag pheasant shooting and a deer being shot with a rifle. I respect peoples views about big bag shooting but not wanting all shooting banned.
So it’s better to eat a bullock that has been transported hundreds of miles to the cheapest slaughterhouse and processing unit than to shoot a deer eating grass in a field and eat that? One should be banned and the other supported?
On another point ‘all shot pheasants are left to rot’. I pick up on 6 shoots here, 3 big bag and all birds are taken and used or sold to the game dealer.
So it’s better to eat a bullock that has been transported hundreds of miles to the cheapest slaughterhouse and processing unit than to shoot a deer eating grass in a field and eat that? One should be banned and the other supported?
On another point ‘all shot pheasants are left to rot’. I pick up on 6 shoots here, 3 big bag and all birds are taken and used or sold to the game dealer.
palo1
Well-Known Member
We love pheasant. We eat it frequently during the shooting season; either donated or purchased. It is lovely, lean, tasty meat. Sorry but a lot of folk do enjoy pheasant. I also like partridge and pigeon (possibly my favourite). No pheasants wouldn't be the end of the world for me but I would hate to see no game as it is, for me, a really decent foodstuff. Partridge is potentially 'better' than pheasant in terms of biodiversity but pheasants have been around in Britain for quite a while. All those mentioned are sold in butchers and 'fancy' food shops locally.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Shooting a bird in flight is a skill that people take pride in honing. It isn't about bloodlust - it is about the pride in being able to aim and shoot something cleanly. There is absolutely a culture within shooting of being 'good' so it isn't ok to be an absolutely hopeless shot winging bird after bird; it has the same approbation as people riding badly ime (albeit limited)>
GoldenWillow
Well-Known Member
Whilst I have no respect as have seen our local hunt behave diabolically I do wonder about this. There has been nothing locally anywhere and last Wednesday it rained all day here (about 30 miles away)
honetpot
Well-Known Member
Pheasants are really bred to be shot, we occasionally have a cock pheasant that will survive a couple of seasons, they are not native to this country, but when they are released they are not very good at keeping out of trouble, even though they are fed well away from the road,they fly low and end up smashed on the road, if they are not run over, because somehow car drivers in the morning can not be bothered to slow down. I do not know what's worse, young birds being smashed on the road, or someone paying a large sum of money to shoot them and have a morning out with lunch and drinks after. There is at least some benefit economic locally from a shooting party. I think they probably have better quality of life, than a meat chicken, which will be lucky to reach twelve weeks, and huge amounts of birds are processed each week.
The most amazing thing I discovered at Burghley was pheasant goujons, https://www.thegamechef.co.uk/
The most amazing thing I discovered at Burghley was pheasant goujons, https://www.thegamechef.co.uk/
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
It would be nice if that consideration could be extended to the 'vermin' shot by keepers/casual guns. Such as the guy who used to shoot pigeon over the rape on the farm where I was liveried a few years back, who clearly saw a fox and shot at it, never mind he had the wrong cartridges for the job. I found the fox bleeding all over my hay in our little shed, but unfortunately it wasn't wounded badly enough for me to get near it. Or the keeper who'd been round a day or two before I did my last hedge survey and left about 10 crows flapping around in the brambles, also none badly wounded enough to catch and dispatch, or I would have done. They were about the only visible wildlife on that farm. Bar some pheasants, if you can call them wildlife.