Hunting is in a spot of bother

[palo1]

I think the huntsman was reckless to jump where he did tbh BUT there was a gap, he clearly knew the horse was capable (which it was) and he communicated to the sabs of his intention to jump. They had fair warning and the one moved into the space after the horse could have safely been stopped. If he had had to go around or get off, no doubt there would have been potentially further confrontation. Getting off to open the gate would have left the horse vulnerable to those sabs or would have put 1 man on the ground with 2 sabs (more than that actually cos someone else was filming). That huntsman/whip was pretty much stuffed as soon as the sabs took the gate. And they may have been trespassing (no idea if that gate was on a footpath). We don't know whether those sabs present were 'known', whether they had form for bad behaviour/intimidation etc etc and the huntsman was not breaking the law in any way at the point this confrontation took place I don't think. It's just dire though.

 

[palo1]

I know who she is in real life and there wasn't any conspiracy she was actually just run over. She suffers a lot of PTSD from it.

She was arrested because she had been arrested at the beagle place and wasn't supposed to be doing anymore animal rights not because she had been doing anything to get run over.

Yes I know the Beagle protest was entirely separate but in the eyes of the law her association with other individuals puts her in a different context as far as the police are concerned. That association includes with those who have been imprisoned for terrorism offences so that is taken incredibly seriously. That probably would impact on the way the police would treat other activities and would make her a less credible victim in the eyes of the law. There HAS been stuff in the media (not from hunting circles) about how that incident (being run over) was set up though I really don't know how believable that is. Poor woman on several counts really.

 

[Sandstone1]

Here is what the Cottesmore have to say...

An incident occurred on Saturday while The Cottesmore Hunt were trail hunting around the Whissendine area.
The huntsman needed to jump a gate, but found it obstructed by 2 members of the Sabotuers Association.
On video, he can clearly be heard asking them to allow him access to jump the obstacle, but they remained on the gate. An experienced horseman, on a very capable horse, Sam assessed the situation, verbally warned of his intentions to jump the gate and requested they keep clear, he viewed his line over the gate and jumped. As his horse took off, it is clear to see that the previously stationary person moved, deliberately putting themselves in the path of the jumping horse, potentially causing injury to themselves, the horse and Sam.
A horse will not intentionally tread on an other being, and Sam’s horse, an experienced and very clever animal did his best to avoid the person that had put themselves in his path as he took off for the fence, however a moving object is hard to avoid and unfortunately his feet made contact.
The extreme reaction of the Saboteurs present did no more than amplify their desperation to discredit The Cottesmore Hunt.
The Saboteurs called 999 and summonsed an ambulance for a person who walked 3 fields to get to the road, they had 2 of their own vehicles present and could very easily have saved the over stretched ambulance service a call out.
They also had 3 police cars, again wasting the time of an overstretched service to create a social media worthy story.
Their desperation as our trail hunting season draws to a close is to cause trouble and create stories purely because they know we are trail hunting legally and have no just reason to be abusing and terrorising the hunt staff and followers.
In addition, they have attacked on social media, Stapleford Park Hotel, who had no involvement with the meet or our days trail hunting, proving that the Saboteurs Association intend to cause distress to countryside businesses regardless of their lack of involvement with the Cottesmore.
This incident could potentially have caused injury or death to Sam and his horse and we are investigating potential criminal charges against the hunt saboteur.


As for the incident with the car running over the sab which looked utterly dire, the saboteur involved was subsequently arrested and held without bail for other offences. It has also been reported that the incident was not as it seemed or even as it looked as filmed but was set up to a degree. I don't know how much that could be true but that has been reported. It is a bit mysterious tbh but no-one was charged over that. All this strife is just dire and very sad for all involved.
[/QUOT
OMG, the hunt is considering charges..... Because the huntsman decided to jump over a sab. Completely unbelievable. Where do these people keep their brains?

 

[ycbm]

Dress it up how you like, there was never safe room for the huntsman to jump that fence with the sabs positioned as they were, no matter how brilliant his horse, whose life he saw fit to risk.

This is not playing jumping over single barrels at Pony Club.

I'm struggling to believe that people who ride are talking a if it is guaranteed that a horse will jump a metal gate in a rough gateway exactly where and how it is intended to.
.

 

[palo1]

Dress it up how you like, there was never safe room for the huntsman to jump that fence with the sabs positioned as they were, no matter how brilliant his horse, whose life he saw fit to risk.

This is not playing jumping over single barrels at Pony Club.

I didn't dress it up any way; that is the statement from the Cottesmore who actually are bound to support their staff. Personally, I think that at the point he committed to jump, he wasn't risking his horse unless the bystanders were to do something that would change the situation. Which they did. They were not uninvolved (like a pair of ramblers just wandering by for example) but actively engaged in that situation.

 

[Abacus]

I'm struggling to believe that people who ride are talking a if it is guaranteed that a horse will jump a metal gate in a rough gateway exactly where and how it is intended to.
.

Totally agree and especially with a couple of people wriggling in front of them, not many horses would be keen on that (Off-topic, but what a lovely horse that is).

 

[Sandstone1]

What would have happened if the horse had changed direction at the last min and landed full on the sab and killed him? Oh its ok he was warned I was about to jump over him Your Honor!

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Here is what the Cottesmore have to say...

An incident occurred on Saturday while The Cottesmore Hunt were trail hunting around the Whissendine area.
The huntsman needed to jump a gate, but found it obstructed by 2 members of the Sabotuers Association.
On video, he can clearly be heard asking them to allow him access to jump the obstacle, but they remained on the gate. An experienced horseman, on a very capable horse, Sam assessed the situation, verbally warned of his intentions to jump the gate and requested they keep clear, he viewed his line over the gate and jumped. As his horse took off, it is clear to see that the previously stationary person moved, deliberately putting themselves in the path of the jumping horse, potentially causing injury to themselves, the horse and Sam.
A horse will not intentionally tread on an other being, and Sam’s horse, an experienced and very clever animal did his best to avoid the person that had put themselves in his path as he took off for the fence, however a moving object is hard to avoid and unfortunately his feet made contact.
The extreme reaction of the Saboteurs present did no more than amplify their desperation to discredit The Cottesmore Hunt.
The Saboteurs called 999 and summonsed an ambulance for a person who walked 3 fields to get to the road, they had 2 of their own vehicles present and could very easily have saved the over stretched ambulance service a call out.
They also had 3 police cars, again wasting the time of an overstretched service to create a social media worthy story.
Their desperation as our trail hunting season draws to a close is to cause trouble and create stories purely because they know we are trail hunting legally and have no just reason to be abusing and terrorising the hunt staff and followers.
In addition, they have attacked on social media, Stapleford Park Hotel, who had no involvement with the meet or our days trail hunting, proving that the Saboteurs Association intend to cause distress to countryside businesses regardless of their lack of involvement with the Cottesmore.
This incident could potentially have caused injury or death to Sam and his horse and we are investigating potential criminal charges against the hunt saboteur.


As for the incident with the car running over the sab which looked utterly dire, the saboteur involved was subsequently arrested and held without bail for other offences. It has also been reported that the incident was not as it seemed or even as it looked as filmed but was set up to a degree. I don't know how much that could be true but that has been reported. It is a bit mysterious tbh but no-one was charged over that. All this strife is just dire and very sad for all involved.

What a steaming pile of mince that is.

 

[shortstuff99]

Yes I know the Beagle protest was entirely separate but in the eyes of the law her association with other individuals puts her in a different context as far as the police are concerned. That association includes with those who have been imprisoned for terrorism offences so that is taken incredibly seriously. That probably would impact on the way the police would treat other activities and would make her a less credible victim in the eyes of the law. There HAS been stuff in the media (not from hunting circles) about how that incident (being run over) was set up though I really don't know how believable that is. Poor woman on several counts really.

Ah didn't realise victims had to all be squeaky clean to be treated properly under the law.

I still can't see how it would be set up unless someone pushed her in front of the car or paid the hunt member to run her over

I'm not against legal trail hunting but the hunt people themselves seem to be undertaking a conspiracy to do everything possible to get it banned and themselves hated.

 

[Fellewell]

It doesn't matter what the sabs did or were doing, in this or any situation. It doesn't make it ok to do a wrong thing, and there was no excuse for jumping a gate so close to a person who was looking in the other direction. I'm not sure if you were referring to this specific video as being misleading but it looks pretty clear to me.

Of course it matters what the sabs were doing. The sabs were playing a game of cat and mouse with a jumping horse.

 

[palo1]

I'm struggling to believe that people who ride are talking a if it is guaranteed that a horse will jump a metal gate in a rough gateway exactly where and how it is intended to.
.

Well I would never jump a metal gate though I think the gateway itself was pretty straightforward. I guess it is about what you are used to doing, have confidence and experience of and knowing the horse. Many, many people risk their horses over complex (and fixed) obstacles - the reason they do that is because they have trained for those kinds of challenges and have practised successfully. It wouldn't be my choice but nothing about the riding or the horse's body language suggested this was a worrying obstacle.

 

[Sandstone1]

Of course it matters what the sabs were doing. You don't play a game of cat and mouse with a jumping horse.

But the horse should not have been jumping. Thats the point.

 

[ycbm]

As for the incident with the car running over the sab which looked utterly dire, the saboteur involved was subsequently arrested and held without bail for other offences. It has also been reported that the incident was not as it seemed or even as it looked as filmed but was set up to a degree.

I would love to hear an explanation for how a pedestrian who does not move into the path of a car can "set up" it being driven so close to her that it's impossible to tell whether it touched her or not.

She was treated in hospital for her injuries, are you suggesting they were self inflicted?

This is possibly the strangest thing I've ever seen you write in defense of a hunt.
.

 

[shortstuff99]

Of course it matters what the sabs were doing. You don't play a game of cat and mouse with a jumping horse.

So surely the huntsman should have used his noggin, thought how this would probably go, and choose not to jump a gate and risk this exact scenario happening? If everyone knows Sabs do everything possible for bad press then surely this was 100% predictable.

That's the bit I can't get!

 

[palo1]

Ah didn't realise victims had to all be squeaky clean to be treated properly under the law.

I still can't see how it would be set up unless someone pushed her in front of the car or paid the hunt member to run her over

I'm not against legal trail hunting but the hunt people themselves seem to be undertaking a conspiracy to do everything possible to get it banned and themselves hated.

';Ah didn't realise victims had to all be squeaky clean to be treated properly under the law.'

Welcome to 21st century policing...the cops called to arrest this woman for other offences know her, have dealt with her many times before. There is context, even where perhaps that isn't fair. As for the set up, I think it has been reported that yes, another sab 'agreed' to push her. Madness and very depressing all round.

 

[ycbm]

Well I would never jump a metal gate though I think the gateway itself was pretty straightforward. I guess it is about what you are used to doing, have confidence and experience of and knowing the horse. Many, many people risk their horses over complex (and fixed) obstacles - the reason they do that is because they have trained for those kinds of challenges and have practised successfully. It wouldn't be my choice but nothing about the riding or the horse's body language suggested this was a worrying obstacle.

And this is the second most peculiar thing I've seen you write in defense of a hunt.

Palo you know as well as anyone that even the most reliable horses do not always do what is expected.

There is no excuse for swinging a pound of steel inches away from someone's head. .
.

 

[palo1]

I would love to hear an explanation for how a pedestrian who does not move into the path of a car can "set up" it being driven so close to her that it's impossible to tell whether it touched her or not.

She was treated in hospital for her injuries, are you suggesting they were self inflicted?

This is possibly the strangest thing I've ever seen you write in defense of a hunt.
.

I have not said this, nor am I suggesting it is the truth, just that I have read that. Yes she was injured and the incident was dire. If it was set up then, well...words fail me tbh. I have not said I believe that at all but that it has been reported.

 

[ester]

‘OMG, the hunt is considering charges..... Because the huntsman decided to jump over a sab. Completely unbelievable. Where do these people keep their brains?’

I’m genuinely confused why you say this when he clearly didn’t decide to jump over a sab given the sab wasn’t there at take off

 

[Sandstone1]

I would love to hear an explanation for how a pedestrian who does not move into the path of a car can "set up" it being driven so close to her that it's impossible to tell whether it touched her or not.

She was treated in hospital for her injuries, are you suggesting they were self inflicted?

This is possibly the strangest thing I've ever seen you write in defense of a hunt.
.

And thats saying something

 

[palo1]

And this is the second most peculiar thing I've seen you write in defense of a hunt.

Palo you know as well as anyone that even the most reliable horses do not always do what is expected.

There is no excuse for swinging a pound of steel inches away from someone's head. .
.

Again, I made it clear I would not have done this and said earlier I think the huntsman was reckless. I have often seen people jumping horses extremely close to people standing by a fence - any time anyone does that they are potentially risking lives but it happens all over the place! I saw it at a pony club training session only a couple of weeks ago...

 

[sakura]

Of course it matters what the sabs were doing. The sabs were playing a game of cat and mouse with a jumping horse.

And the hunt should not have been using a horse as a potential weapon.

 

[palo1]

And the hunt should not have been using a horse as a potential weapon.

The horse really wasn't being used as a weapon but all the people in that situation must have been aware of the jeopardy of that.

 

[Sandstone1]

‘OMG, the hunt is considering charges..... Because the huntsman decided to jump over a sab. Completely unbelievable. Where do these people keep their brains?’

I’m genuinely confused why you say this when he clearly didn’t decide to jump over a sab given the sab wasn’t there at take off

Well the sab was a few inches away with his back to the huntsman. Would a rider at Badminton for instance be allowed to take off for a fence with a spectator that close? I think not.

 

[Red-1]

I used to hunt with the Readyfield bloodhounds, so no foxes. With a few of my horses, I would have felt very confident to pop that gate. I would not have done so with those people beside it though, not because I would have thought my horse would swerve or anything, but because:- 1. Even the best horse can mis-step and 2. The people themselves were unpredictable. The risk would simply have been too high, hence thinking the huntsman was reckless.

The horse acted perfectly, the line was perfect but one of the people did not stay put, which I think was foreseeable. I believe the risk was too high, and the huntsman was reckless, but I also personally think the man stepped out deliberately, although that cannot be proved without him saying so. If the man on foot admitted he stepped in front of the horse deliberately, than I think he should be the one charged by the Police as he would have been reckless himself.

As it is, I suspect it will be put as accidental.

Neither party looks good in this.

 

[sakura]

I’m genuinely confused why you say this when he clearly didn’t decide to jump over a sab given the sab wasn’t there at take off

But the huntsman did know they were there, as per the hunts own statement:

The huntsman needed to jump a gate, but found it obstructed by 2 members of the Sabotuers Association. On video, he can clearly be heard asking them to allow him access to jump the obstacle, but they remained on the gate.

 

[Sandstone1]

But the huntsman did know they were there, as per the hunts own statement:

Dont you know everyone has to make way for the hunt? Never mind that what they are doing is mostly against the law.

 

[Abacus]

I used to hunt with the Readyfield bloodhounds, so no foxes. With a few of my horses, I would have felt very confident to pop that gate. I would not have done so with those people beside it though, not because I would have thought my horse would swerve or anything, but because:- 1. Even the best horse can mis-step and 2. The people themselves were unpredictable. The risk would simply have been too high, hence thinking the huntsman was reckless.

The horse acted perfectly, the line was perfect but one of the people did not stay put, which I think was foreseeable. I believe the risk was too high, and the huntsman was reckless, but I also personally think the man stepped out deliberately, although that cannot be proved without him saying so. If the man on foot admitted he stepped in front of the horse deliberately, than I think he should be the one charged by the Police as he would have been reckless himself.

As it is, I suspect it will be put as accidental.

Neither party looks good in this.

I agree with most of this except that I am less sure that the sab stepped out deliberately. As the horse turned to jump the sab was looking away from the horse, and I believe if anyone did this deliberately they would look at the horse. To me it looked as though he took a sidestep as the horse jumped, without seeing what was coming.

 

[YorksG]

She was arrested because she had been arrested at the beagle place and wasn't supposed to be doing anymore animal rights not because she had been doing anything to get run over.

So she isn't actually interested in following the legalities? She was suspected of having broken one law (at least) was bailed with conditions, but decided to flout those conditions, to try and ensure that others were prevented from possibly breaking the law?

 

[ester]

of course the huntsman knew they were there! but they were not in the line of the jump path were they? Or am I watching a different video?!

had he wanted to intentionally jump sab he’d have aimed at them (and consequently actually missed them as theymoved)

 

[ester]

I agree with most of this except that I am less sure that the sab stepped out deliberately. As the horse turned to jump the sab was looking away from the horse, and I believe if anyone did this deliberately they would look at the horse. To me it looked as though he took a sidestep as the horse jumped, without seeing what was coming.

yes it didn’t look intentional to me either