Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Landcruiser]

How much disruption do football clubs cause when thousands of fans descend for a match ? Or cycling clubs when they have time trials or races? Or places of worship ?
We live in a country where we have to share the resources, this doesn’t mean those who are part of the disruption are arrogant, they have every right to be there.
Others need to learn tolerance, the arrogance comes when people who don’t have a legal right to be there either do it anyway with no attempt at an apology or restitution of damage.
And yes I would agree that some hunts do fall into the latter and therefore could reasonably be classed as arrogant in those instances, however the ones who are totally arrogant are the sabs.

The Vale of the White Horse hunt had absolutely no right to be allowing their hounds to cross my land metres from where my box resting injured 3 yr old was climbing the walls, back in November. They had no right to be in my back garden or actually in my yard, on a previous occasion either. They have caused massive disruption and danger to other people, whilst going about their own business on their own property, in this area.
The more I have seen (video evidence as well as with my own eyes) of how these people are carrying on, the more I think sabs are speaking for very many of us and the sooner the hunts are disbanded the better. Which is a great shame for all of those people (myself included) that enjoys a good fun ride, but hopefully something more ethical will fill the void.

 

[Koweyka]

The Avon Vale a one off ….. errrr it seems not.

IMPORTANT REQUEST - PLEASE SHARE

We have received intelligence that there is a video of an incident very similar to the Avon Vale Hunt's (where they threw two foxes to the hounds) circulating within hunting WhatsApp groups. This time the hunt in question is believed to be the Northumberland-based Border Hunt and a very senior figure from within the BHSA (the Hunting Office) is said to have been involved.

We urge anyone in possession of this video to send it to us. We guarantee 100% confidentially to all sources – no matter what side of the hunting fence you sit on.

 

[Millionwords]

Again there IS plenty of evidence online of violence from sabs.

Comparatively very little, so little that it doesn't reach anyone outside of hunting often. Which isn't to say its not there. But hunts won't make anyone belive them with only claims.

All hunts members seem to have been at the same incident when "a child was pulled from her horse"....some of them 20 years old, some 50 years old from different ends of the country.

A bit like all those squaddies on the balcony. Its made it into hunting narrative and everyone parrots it like their own experience.

 

[Gallop_Away]

It's hypothetical. People sab hunting for their own reasons and those reasons, I'm sure, will influence what they decide to do once trail hunting is banned.

We will see. But I wonder how the general equestrian community will feel when the bullies start turning up at badminton or the local p2p.

 

[GoldenWillow]

We live in a country where we have to share the resources, this doesn’t mean those who are part of the disruption are arrogant, they have every right to be there.
Others need to learn tolerance, the arrogance comes when people who don’t have a legal right to be there either do it anyway with no attempt at an apology or restitution of damage.

The thing is this works both ways!

I hope you would agree that I have a right to turn my ponies out in my own field? And yet on hunt days I could not do this safely. This is despite having ponies that would not react to seeing hounds in the distance and given that we are in the middle of a group of five fields that have not given permission for the hunt to go on and from February onwards the hunt should not be anywhere on 100 acres surrounding us. And yet they continually went through my field. They had no legal right to be there but did it anyway, continually. I contacted hunt secretary every time and nothing ever changed.

I would also like to ride on the roads on hunt days but never did since the day I got a lot of horrible abuse, jeering, vehicles driving alongside me then driving off at high revs. These were hunt supporters.

The arrogance of this behaviour has led to the largest landowner in the area withdrawing his permission for the hunt to go on his land.

I have no problem at all with considerate hunts that work within the law.

 

[Fred66]

…

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds to most normal people??

So we have a huntsman, going about his lawful business when he is unlawfully obstructed. Was he supposed to stand there all day with concerns about what was going on elsewhere and his responsibility for the rest of the field probably uppermost in his mind? He gave them due warning of his intention to proceed and while his horse was mid-air the sab moved into his path. Is there that much to fathom, really? And this is far from being an isolated incident.

Unfortunately the cotts is not lawful!!

 

[Gallop_Away]

Comparatively very little, so little that it doesn't reach anyone outside of hunting often. Which isn't to say its not there. But hunts won't make anyone belive them with only claims.

All hunts members seem to have been at the same incident when "a child was pulled from her horse"....some of them 20 years old, some 50 years old from different ends of the country.

A bit like all those squaddies on the balcony. Its made it into hunting narrative and everyone parrots it like their own experience.

We will have to agree to disagree on that I'm afraid. I don't consider there to be little evidence of poor behaviour from sabs, but I do agree that it does not seem to reach the wider public as does the bad behaviour of hunts. I think this likely due to the poor public opinion people have of hunting, and rightly so given the poor behaviour of some hunts.

Just a quick Google search throws up quite a few results dated only recently : -

VIDEO: Hunt saboteur beats 81-year-old over the head with camera lens

EXCLUSIVE: Saboteur Alexandra Dennis lunged at the elderly pensioner as he attempted to retrieve something from the ground just behind her and then struck him in the head with a video camera.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Tim Bonner: Hunt sabs convicted

Last week's conviction of five hunt saboteurs at Loughborough Magistrates Court for threatening and punching a 15-year-old girl and two men aged 61 and 52 years old, who were following a trail hunt in Leicestershire back in January, is very welcome but it also leaves a string of questions.

www.countryside-alliance.org

Pensioner arrested as police clash with anti-hunt protestors

A hunt saboteur group has hit out at Kent Police after they arrested a pensioner involved in an anti-hunt protest for "harassment".

www.kentonline.co.uk

I personally don't feel either "side" can take the moral high ground to be honest. I honestly think it really is a matter of time before someone is killed.

 

[Burnttoast]

I personally don't feel either "side" can take the moral high ground to be honest. I honestly think it really is a matter of time before someone is killed.

People seem to forget that at least one person (a sab) has already been killed.

 

[sakura]

We will see. But I wonder how the general equestrian community will feel when the bullies start turning up at badminton or the local p2p.

If horses were being intentionally and illegally killed at Badminton, I would welcome some form of protest.

 

[Gallop_Away]

If horses were being intentionally and illegally killed at Badminton, I would welcome some form of protest.

Sakura you and I clearly have different views on the motivations of sabs. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. Time will tell.

 

[Koweyka]

It seems the police aren’t going along with the “it was the Sabs fault for not moving rhetoric”


A man has been arrested following an incident in which a horse "collided" with a hunt saboteur while jumping over a gate.
Leicestershire Police said the 34-year-old was arrested on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm and remains in custody.
The arrest comes after Hertfordshire Hunt Saboteurs posted footage online of the incident in Whissendine, Rutland.
They had been filming the Cottesmore Hunt when it happened.
Police said they were called to a field in Station Road shortly after 13:35 GMT on Saturday, after receiving "a report that a horse had collided with a woman".
They said the hunt saboteur did not suffer any serious injuries during the incident.

 

[Fred66]

People seem to forget that at least one person (a sab) has already been killed.

Actually there was a hunt supporter killed

Protester Bryan Griffiths is cleared of killing hunt supporter Trevor

Gyrocopter pilot is not responsible for decapitation during heated confrontation

www.independent.co.uk

If you read the article it bears remarkable similarity to the incident we are discussing.

 

[Burnttoast]

Actually there was a hunt supporter killed

Protester Bryan Griffiths is cleared of killing hunt supporter Trevor

Gyrocopter pilot is not responsible for decapitation during heated confrontation

www.independent.co.uk

If you read the article it bears remarkable similarity to the incident we are discussing.

I said 'at least'. And these deaths make it all the more amazing that incidents like the recent one are continuing. The huntsman must have known as he rode at the gate that there was an outside chance he could end up killing one of the people in front of him.

 

[Sossigpoker]

It seems the police aren’t going along with the “it was the Sabs fault for not moving rhetoric”


A man has been arrested following an incident in which a horse "collided" with a hunt saboteur while jumping over a gate.
Leicestershire Police said the 34-year-old was arrested on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm and remains in custody.
The arrest comes after Hertfordshire Hunt Saboteurs posted footage online of the incident in Whissendine, Rutland.
They had been filming the Cottesmore Hunt when it happened.
Police said they were called to a field in Station Road shortly after 13:35 GMT on Saturday, after receiving "a report that a horse had collided with a woman".
They said the hunt saboteur did not suffer any serious injuries during the incident.

I was just about to post this,.thank you.
No doubt certain hunt supporters will still try to justify his actions.

BTW Do you or anyone know whats happened to the Avon Vale people who were arrested- have they been charged?

 

[rabatsa]

And yet drag hunts were only sabbed by mistake and the Cheshire Hunt stopped being stabbed when it went legit.

They will go for shooting, not drag hunting, IMO.
.

Tell the local sabs that tried to stir up tension at the Bloodhounds high profile New Years day meet, that everything was legit and no foxes were involved.

 

[Red-1]

I can quite see why most hunt supporters don't wear video. It would show the things they do wrong as well as the things the sabs do wrong.

Just look at Harry Whatsis-chops. I bet he wishes he hadn't filmed that day. I would welcome the hunt supporters having video, and why not, if they are doing no wrong. it's hardly like most hunt supporters couldn't afford a camera. It may mean fewer foxes chased.

 

[Red-1]

I always said I believed the huntsman to be reckless in his actions (so at fault, so I don't know why I had 2 angry reactions). I merely said that I don't think he deliberately jumped into the sab.

Being reckless is still guilty of assault.

I believe the Police are correct to interview, although if the defendant were to be identifiable and agree to go to the Police station voluntarily, there should be no reason to actually arrest, unless they wish to gain access to some extra evidence. Begs the question as to the necessity to arrest as opposed to do it on a voluntary basis. I wonder if he refused to attend?

Common Assault – s.39 Criminal Justice Act 1988
An assault is any act (and not mere omission to act) by which a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to suffer or apprehend immediate unlawful violence.


Assault occasioning Actual Bodily Harm (ABH) – s.47 OAPA 1861
The offence is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly assaults another, thereby causing Actual Bodily Harm. It must be proved that the assault (which includes “battery”) “occasioned” or caused the bodily harm. Bodily harm has its ordinary meaning and includes any hurt calculated to interfere with the health or comfort of the victim: such hurt need not be permanent, but must be more than transient and trifling: (R v Donovan [1934] 2 KB 498).

What makes an arrest necessary?
The PACE Act establishes a range of specific conditions that would make an arrest necessary.

In brief, these are as follows:

• To ascertain a person’s name or address. This would be considered an arrest necessity if the police had reason to believe they were being given false information.
• To prevent physical harm. This includes harm to the person being arrested, whether from others or from themselves.
• To prevent loss of or damage to property. This would particularly apply if the individual has a history of theft or criminal damage, for instance.
• To prevent an offence against public decency. This only applies if members of the public are going about their business nearby and cannot reasonably avoid the individual.
• If there is an unlawful obstruction to the highway. In this case, there should be some indication that the obstruction will continue or be repeated without an arrest.
• To protect a child or a vulnerable person. This includes both the physical and mental wellbeing of the person.
• To prevent the investigation of an offence or the prosecution of the suspect being hindered. For instance, if there was reason to believe the individual would not attend court following a summons, this would suggest an arrest necessity.

According to PACE, even in these cases police must consider other practical alternatives to arrest. Only in the absence of such alternatives is arrest justifiable.

 

[TGM]

Tell the local sabs that tried to stir up tension at the Bloodhounds high profile New Years day meet, that everything was legit and no foxes were involved.

What bloodhound pack was that? Were the protestors proper organised hunt sabs or just onlookers who got the wrong idea?

I must say it is unusual for bloodhound packs to get sabbed, my family have been involved with the local bloodhound pack for over 10 years (including mastering, whipping in etc) and in that time they have never been targeted by organised sabs, because the sabs know that bloodhounding is legit. However, we do get the odd layperson shouting at us occasionally if they don't understand what bloodhounding is all about.

 

[paddy555]

Now you may feel that as hunting is illegal and these hunts are breaking the law, the sabs are justified. But what happens when they have finished with hunting and they turn their attention to other LEGAL activities? Fishing, shooting, horse racing, eventing, farming... where do you draw a line?

is the argument to continue to allow hunting be it legal or not because it will give the sabs something to do and keep their attention away from fishing, shooting, racing etc etc.

 

[Red-1]

is the argument to continue to allow hunting be it legal or not because it will give the sabs something to do and keep their attention away from fishing, shooting, racing etc etc.

On a personal level, I can't say I like the idea of fishing. Sitting there, getting a hook through a fish's lip and then throwing it back for pleasure. nope, doesn't do it for me.

And yes, I do eat meat.

 

[paddy555]

On a personal level, I can't say I like the idea of fishing. Sitting there, getting a hook through a fish's lip and then throwing it back for pleasure. nope, doesn't do it for me.

And yes, I do eat meat.

on a very personal level ie having a shoot in the field across the road from us, (really up and personal as that is where the duckpond is and where they all gather round for their killing spree) I can't say I like the idea of shooting much.

 

[Landcruiser]

Actually there was a hunt supporter killed

Protester Bryan Griffiths is cleared of killing hunt supporter Trevor

Gyrocopter pilot is not responsible for decapitation during heated confrontation

www.independent.co.uk

If you read the article it bears remarkable similarity to the incident we are discussing.

On the surface it does. But that doesn't bear scrutiny. The current incident involves someone who WAS moving away, and had their back to the oncoming hazard. The audio makes it quite clear that she had no idea the huntsman was going to (be idiotic enough to) jump the gate behind her. He had appeared to go in the other direction, away from the gate, so she thought she was safe to cross in front of the gate. You can hear someone shout "Look out Pat!" if you listen hard - nobody knew what he was going to do - and then for him to just ride on without a backwards glance??? I mean, come on!!

 

[Sossigpoker]

On the surface it does. But that doesn't bear scrutiny. The current incident involves someone who WAS moving away, and had their back to the oncoming hazard. The audio makes it quite clear that she had no idea the huntsman was going to (be idiotic enough to) jump the gate behind her. He had appeared to go in the other direction, away from the gate, so she thought she was safe to cross in front of the gate. You can hear someone shout "Look out Pat!" if you listen hard - nobody knew what he was going to do - and then for him to just ride on without a backwards glance??? I mean, come on!!

Well he's been arrested for it now thankfully.

 

[Gallop_Away]

is the argument to continue to allow hunting be it legal or not because it will give the sabs something to do and keep their attention away from fishing, shooting, racing etc etc.

That's a rather strange take on my post paddy but OK. Not once did I suggest this. Illegal hunting needs to stop and those breaking the law need to be held accountable by the authorities, as do masked vigilantes who feel they have a right to take the law into their own hands.
The point I was making, quite clearly I thought, is that if we allow the behaviour of sabs to continue because we take the view that their behaviour is ok as hunting is illegal, what happens when they have finished with hunting and turn their attention elsewhere to other LEGAL activities?

 

[Sossigpoker]

That's a rather strange take on my post paddy but OK. Not once did I suggest this. Illegal hunting needs to stop and those breaking the law need to be held accountable by the authorities, as do masked vigilantes who feel they have a right to take the law into their own hands.
The point I was making, quite clearly I thought, is that if we allow the behaviour of sabs to continue because we take the view that their behaviour is ok as hunting is illegal, what happens when they have finished with hunting and turn their attention elsewhere to other LEGAL activities?

Well the sabs are doing the work that the authorities should be doing!
I've seen a film of a PCSO saying to a sab to "make sure the footage isn't shaky or they won't be able to use it"! Why the feck aren't the cops out the monitoring the hunts instead of expecting us civvies to do so?
The reason why it's OK for us civvies to monitor hunts and record evidence is because our police won't do it (and many of them are busy joining the hunts !)
If the sabs turn their attention to say horse racing- good for them. What goes on behind closed doors needs to be exposed in so , so many fields.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It's very resource heavy to expect the police to be out all day every hunting day monitoring hunts, and the naughty hunts know this full well.

Our own police rural crime team do a very difficult job IMHO very well. They are often out with the hunts. The antis are outraged that the local pack still has a huntsman with a recent conviction for illegal fox hunting, but as the police correctly point out there is nothing illegal about him continuing in hunt service. It's idiotic, but not illegal...

It is absolutely right that the Cottesmore huntsman is questioned about the reckless incident with the sab. Interesting that he was arrested. Also interesting that the BBC reported it, as they usually keep their heads down if anything occurs that may tarnish hunting's reputation.

ETA with link.

Man arrested after hunt saboteur is hit by horse https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-64636719

 

[ycbm]

We will see. But I wonder how the general equestrian community will feel when the bullies start turning up at badminton or the local p2p.

I can't speak for everyone, but I do know that even on this forum I am far from alone in feeling that I will not be sorry to see either of those disappear.
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Well the sabs are doing the work that the authorities should be doing!
I've seen a film of a PCSO saying to a sab to "make sure the footage isn't shaky or they won't be able to use it"! Why the feck aren't the cops out the monitoring the hunts instead of expecting us civvies to do so?
The reason why it's OK for us civvies to monitor hunts and record evidence is because our police won't do it (and many of them are busy joining the hunts !)
If the sabs turn their attention to say horse racing- good for them. What goes on behind closed doors needs to be exposed in so , so many fields.

Which is all well and good in theory, but they don't just monitor do they? They interfere and intimidate and break the law to make their views known. Monitors are different entirely to sabs, and I've no issue with them.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I can't speak for everyone, but I do know that even on this forum I am far from alone in feeling that I will not be sorry to see either of those disappear.
.

And when they finish with them and start harassing "regular" equestrians out on fun rides, local show jumping competition etc?

Regardless of your opinion of these activities, they are legal, and whilst people have every right to protest if they have something against them, they do not have a right to force their views on others through violence and intimidation. I'm quite surprised that anyone wouldn't have an issue with this type of bullying mentality.