Hunting is in a spot of bother

[ester]

This doesn’t seem unusual to me, I could train a dog to speak and to be quiet , surely thats the point about control and comes up in most dog training when you do/don’t want them to do something? What’s the issue with ‘not now’?

There seems to be a thing here about controlling the hounds to stop them doing something that they shouldn't be doing but which they have been trained to do by the people who are then trying to stop them doing it

 

[skinnydipper]

This doesn’t seem unusual to me, I could train a dog to speak and to be quiet , surely thats the point about control and comes up in most dog training when you do/don’t want them to do something? What’s the issue with ‘not now’?

I have taught a dog to speak on cue, also quiet. he was praised with a simple 'good boy' or a reward for getting it right.

It is illegal to hunt fox with hounds so why set them up to fail? Every time.

 

[skinnydipper]

So when the hounds that are trained on fox scent are successful. What happens next?

 

[ester]

Find the laid scent trail?

 

[Nancykitt]

I remember being out trail hunting once on a moor and a hare popped up, zig zagging at incredible speed. The hounds (harriers) were on to the scent straight away. Because I'd never seen anything like this before, I was amazed that the hounds followed the exact trail of the hare rather than going for the straight line. The hare was so blindingly fast it looked like the hounds were never going to catch up - but the huntsman and whippers in were taking no chances and everything stopped while they worked to bring the hounds back. It didn't look easy, the huntsman dismounted and gave directions to the whips; they did, however, manage to get every hound back and under control.
The hunt was regularly 'monitored' (as opposed to sabbed) - I can't say I was ever thrilled to see the monitors, but they were always very civil and sensible and the huntsman was very honest about the lines.

I haven't hunted since moving to the Highlands (no hunts up here!) but I have to say that I much preferred drag hunting and clean boot rather than trail hunting. The drag hounds and bloodhounds were always very well controlled; a do remember a fox crossing our path once but the hounds stuck to the (aniseed?) scent. However, later that day some sabs on Facebook posted that we had 'murdered a vixen'.

The fact is, we know that some hunts are operating illegally. Whether they are able to control the hounds or not, there are definitely those who are behaving very badly indeed.

 

[skinnydipper]

It is illegal to hunt fox with hounds so why set them up to fail? Every time.

Why train the hounds to hunt fox when they don't want them to hunt fox? or maybe they do.

 

[Sandstone1]

Why train them to hunt fox when they don't want them to hunt fox? or maybe they do.

Of course they want them to hunt fox...... Why else use fox scent? So you train your hounds to follow fox scent then you take them out in to the countryside and encourage them on to a scent. They find a fox scent because you take them to areas you know there will be foxes. So the hounds pick up a scent and follow it. What do you do? Call them off the scent if anyone is watching{ if you can} ie antis sabs whoever. { Or you allow them to continue and call it a accident}
What do you do if no one watching? You allow the hounds to follow the scent and kill the fox thats what.
Can anyone tell me thats not the truth?????
So cubbing? How do you train young hounds to hunt fox? You take them to woods, maize fields etc and surround it with followers who turn back any foxes that try to escape while hounds are put in to find and kill fox cubs that are taking shelter. Now why would you do that?

 

[ester]

I’ve only once seen sabs out once but hounds were always called off and brought back to the line- with 2 packs. I’ve only ever been out post ban.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something here, but that's something that could happen to any of us, surely? They couldn't go forwards and past due to the car blocking them (Sab Vehicle?), so they tucked in to the side. Horse spooked a couple of times so he trots it down the road, presumably to find a better passing place?

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% not in any support of illegal hunting, but this seems like a massive stretch. But like I said, maybe I'm missing something.

I agree . It was a narrow lane not a A road so not unreasonable to be riding there .

 

[Tiddlypom]

That’s a valid point about what is the reward for trail hunting foxhounds at the end of each trail. I’d not even considered that before.

Having only hunted pre ban the reward for a successful hunt was a kill. I believe that Bloodhounds get biscuits and cuddles from their human ‘prey’.

So what’s the reward for following a trail to its conclusion for legally trail hunting foxhounds?

 

[Trickywooo]

Why train the hounds to hunt fox when they don't want them to hunt fox? or maybe they do.

But you are not just dealing with training. You are also dealing with an instinct that has been bred into them for generations. I've not trained by terrier to chase rats but he will do so happily because that is so instinctive to him. I've never trained him to do this. If Rowland runs out from under a bale of hay you can bet my boy will be after it like a shot.
The point is, you could train hounds to "hunt" the scent of a toblerone and if a fox ran across their path they would instinctively chase it. Therefore its not about training but about lack of control of hounds. They either have none or they are encouraging hounds to go after foxes. They cannot have it both ways.

 

[Sandstone1]

I agree . It was a narrow lane not a A road so not unreasonable to be riding there .

Not unreasonable to be riding there no. However a large amount of riders holding up traffic not a good thing. people who hack in the countryside do not often go out in such large groups. Does not look good to the general public and does nothing to help encourage road users to slow down for horses. Some of those riders didnt have great control of their horses and could very easily have caused a accident.

 

[Trickywooo]

I agree . It was a narrow lane not a A road so not unreasonable to be riding there .

I've noticed many sab posts on Social media are becoming not just anti hunt but also anti horses on roads in general. Frequently see posts accusing hunts of "taking over the road" underneath a photo of a group of riders trotting along a road. My thoughts on illegal hunting aside, horse riders have every right to use the roads and use them safely.

 

[skinnydipper]

Therefore its not about training but about lack of control of hounds.

Why not both? Train the hounds using a non animal based scent and control the hounds.

 

[Sandstone1]

I've noticed many sab posts on Social media are becoming not just anti hunt but also anti horses on roads in general. Frequently see posts accusing hunts of "taking over the road" underneath a photo of a group of riders trotting along a road. My thoughts on illegal hunting aside, horse riders have every right to use the roads and use them safely.

you are right they do and I am all in favour of riders being allowed to ride safely on the road. However the hunt followers that cause choas on roads do great harm to the publics general perception of riders.

 

[Sandstone1]

Why not both? Train the hounds using a non animal based scent and control the hounds.

Now you are being too sensible and that would be true trail hunting.... Thats what hunts should have been doing for the last 20 years! However....

 

[Millionwords]

I've noticed many sab posts on Social media are becoming not just anti hunt but also anti horses on roads in general. Frequently see posts accusing hunts of "taking over the road" underneath a photo of a group of riders trotting along a road. My thoughts on illegal hunting aside, horse riders have every right to use the roads and use them safely.

I think the argument is they're not using the roads safely. (ignoring that clip above as I don't know that that wouldn't have been the case with any group)

There is plenty of footage of riders and hounds pouring out onto roads, blocking the roads around blind bends, filling the roads at dusk with no hi vis, expecting other road users to give way, blocking roads with vehicles and hounds everywhere ...

Not that long ago a field member and horse lept out of a hedge onto the windscreen of a car, public have run hounds over, lorries have had to slam on their anchors... . Which is the point of having a pre-laid trail trail rather than a live (fox) one... This wouldn't happen if the trail was a laid one and they had marshals.

 

[Trickywooo]

Why not both? Train the hounds using a non animal based scent and control the hounds.

Because they would still chase a fox regardless if they came across it?

 

[Millionwords]

Because they would still chase a fox regardless if they came across it?

Not if the control is as good as everyone here seems to claim.

 

[Trickywooo]

I think the argument is they're not using the roads safely. (ignoring that clip above as I don't know that that wouldn't have been the case with any group)

There is plenty of footage of riders and hounds pouring out onto roads, blocking the roads around blind bends, filling the roads at dusk with no hi vis, expecting other road users to give way, blocking roads with vehicles and hounds everywhere ...

Not that long ago a horse lept out of a hedge onto the windscreen of a car, public have run hounds over, lorries have had to slam on their anchors... . Which is the point of having a pre-laid trail trail rather than a live (fox) one... This wouldn't happen if the trail was a laid one and they had marshals.

But that isn't the type of thing I am referring to. Hounds strewn all over the roads/riders on the wrong side of the road etc that is obviously unsafe.

I am referring to posts that simply show a group of riders on a road. I've seen several posts in the last few weeks accusing riders of taking over the roads, arrogance, etc. I'm not condoning hounds and horses all over the roads but a group of riders riding up the road is perfectly legal and not arrogance or taking over the road.



This is just one example. Although I've seen quite a few posts like it.

 

[skinnydipper]

Because they would still chase a fox regardless if they came across it?

Training them on fox scent increases the likelihood of them hunting fox, because that is what they have been trained to do. And then when they do what they've been trained to do, hunt fox - they get told they've got it wrong?

They are a scent hound who could be trained to follow a non animal based scent. And they could have started that training 20 years ago.

Dogs can be taught scent discrimination.

 

[Trickywooo]

Not if the control is as good as everyone here seems to claim.

Which is exactly my point?
No amount of "training" will replace instinct and so what really matters is the control they have over their hounds. They either have none or they are allowing/encouraging hounds to hunt foxes. They cannot have it both ways.

 

[Millionwords]

Which is exactly my point?
No amount of "training" will replace instinct and so what really matters is the control they have over their hounds. They either have none or they are allowing/encouraging hounds to hunt foxes. They cannot have it both ways.

Apologies, I thought you were suggesting something else, I completely agree with you.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Posts on local village page this morning about a large dog loose on the road weaving in and out of traffic. Poster says she isn’t local and tried to catch dog, but it wouldn’t come to her.

Replies indicate that it’ll be a hound as the hunt are out locally. So that’s grand then, tis to be expected on a hunting day .

ETA A second post from an admin on the village FB page about the loose dog.

Currently following a large dog running free back and forth across the roads he has just bolted into the wilds behind the ***** etc and iv lost site of him he wouldn't let me catch him to get him in the car ! He is at extreme risk he has no road sense and was running infront of cars

Edit i tracked him to ***** then lost him again found a hunt on the way through to ****** and he belongs to them didn't seem in a rush to get him even though i advised them had nearly been hit multiple times ....

This is more common than a common thing in these parts .

 

[skinnydipper]

Posts on local village page this morning about a large dog loose on the road weaving in and out of traffic. Poster says she isn’t local and tried to catch dog, but it wouldn’t come to her.

Replies indicate that it’ll be a hound as the hunt are out locally. So that’s grand then, tis to be expected on a hunting day .

ETA A second post from an admin on the village FB page about the loose dog.

Currently following a large dog running free back and forth across the roads he has just bolted into the wilds behind the ***** etc and iv lost site of him he wouldn't let me catch him to get him in the car ! He is at extreme risk he has no road sense and was running infront of cars

Edit i tracked him to ***** then lost him again found a hunt on the way through to ****** and he belongs to them didn't seem in a rush to get him even though i advised them had nearly been hit multiple times ....

This is more common than a common thing in these parts .

I wonder who the hunt will blame for that.

 

[lizziebell]

But you are not just dealing with training. You are also dealing with an instinct that has been bred into them for generations. I've not trained by terrier to chase rats but he will do so happily because that is so instinctive to him. I've never trained him to do this. If Rowland runs out from under a bale of hay you can bet my boy will be after it like a shot.
The point is, you could train hounds to "hunt" the scent of a toblerone and if a fox ran across their path they would instinctively chase it. Therefore its not about training but about lack of control of hounds. They either have none or they are encouraging hounds to go after foxes. They cannot have it both ways.

A chase instinct in a dog is just that, but they are not born to chase specific species. Species specific chasing/ hunting/ scenting is either trained by human or in the wild taught by their parents. This is why many herding breeds will naturally show herding towards many things not just to one particular livestock. Your terrier is chasing rats as that’s what’s available to him at that moment in time.
Drag hunts rarely get caught up with chasing foxes, and guess what - majority are using foxhounds, which shows training is absolutely at the forefront and that the instinct to scent is not species specific to foxes.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I live in a very rural area, it's been a while since a hunt has been in this area but my neighbours (farming folk who have lived here for decades, well before the ban) have nothing good to say about them and are glad that they no longer hunt on this side of the hills. They would trespass frequently on land they had zero permission to be on, trampling crops and disturbing stock. It's also worth noting that my neighbours who dislike the hunt are not 'soft' city people as is so often implied by pro hunters, they have guns and take care of their own pest control. They simply didn't appreciate their fields getting trashed and stock worried, although many hunts don't seem to be able to comprehend that.

I would like to know what concrete evidence there is, if any, that a pack of dogs with a strong prey drive can ever actually be fully under control of humans. It's not uncommon for people to lose a dog on a walk because it caught sight of a rabbit or squirrel, and never see that dog again. And there are several horrible incidents of pet dogs attacking humans like a pack of wolves. Can any amount of recall training overcome nature's instinct, especially when dogs are in a large group?

 

[ester]

What would constitute concrete evidence? Perhaps it’s something that should be tested annually by the governing body, can’t stop hounds not allowed to hunt.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I wonder who the hunt will blame for that.

The consistent thing hereabouts is the hunts (not just that pack) being unbothered about mislaid hounds mixing it with traffic . So dangerous for everyone, not least the hounds.

 

[skinnydipper]

What would constitute concrete evidence? Perhaps it’s something that should be tested annually by the governing body, can’t stop hounds not allowed to hunt.

Can't stop hounds in pursuit of a fox. But I can't see many foxes volunteering for that.