Hunting is in a spot of bother

[PurpleSpots]

zero evidence that foxes have actually been at risk.

Ah yes, because if hounds/the hunt did catch up with a fox they would, I'm sure, just shake paws and let them go on their own merry way...

 

[Fred66]

Sabs frequently demonstrate and publicize their interference as well as announce that they have 'seen foxes to safety' with zero evidence that foxes have actually been at risk.

Ah yes, because if hounds/the hunt did catch up with a fox they would, I'm sure, just shake paws and let them go on their own merry way…

Quote the full sentence rather than extract the last few words to try and be “funny”

As can be seen from the full sentence Palo was commenting on the statements made by sabs on their pages regarding seeing a fox to safety, with absolutely no evidence that it was being hunted.

Yes if hounds were on its trail it would be at risk but if hounds are following a trail in one direction and the fox is going the opposite then sabs are not “seeing it to safety”

I have seen more foxes turned towards hounds by sabs than I have seen them saving them. I also was witness to a hound being killed on the road due to sabs interference and rather than help lift it into my car to try and get it to the vet, they filmed it for their facebook. If people want to come and monitor then I have absolutely no problem with it, in fact if they want to publish what they see good. However sabs are a different matter and I have nothing but disgust for them.

 

[Fellewell]

How are we expected to believe that hunts are not hunting fox when they continue to train the hounds to hunt fox.

There you are I meant to quote you before.
I would argue that hounds don't need training to hunt fox. They need training on when not to. That's where the huntsman/whips come in and that's the art and skill of trail hunting. I don't believe that changing the scent would wipe out thousands of years of DNA ancestry, anymore than it would for, say, pastoral breeds, because it is all in the training but I take your point.

 

[PurpleSpots]

Quote the full sentence rather than extract the last few words to try and be “funny”

As can be seen from the full sentence Palo was commenting on the statements made by sabs on their pages regarding seeing a fox to safety, with absolutely no evidence that it was being hunted.

Yes if hounds were on its trail it would be at risk but if hounds are following a trail in one direction and the fox is going the opposite then sabs are not “seeing it to safety”

I have seen more foxes turned towards hounds by sabs than I have seen them saving them. I also was witness to a hound being killed on the road due to sabs interference and rather than help lift it into my car to try and get it to the vet, they filmed it for their facebook. If people want to come and monitor then I have absolutely no problem with it, in fact if they want to publish what they see good. However sabs are a different matter and I have nothing but disgust for them.

Not trying to be funny in the slightest; the sentence in question referred to 'foxes' generally, twice, not 'a fox' or specific foxes or specific situations as you have referred to in your reply.

Hence my derision at the concept of foxes in general not being at any risk from hunt activity.

 

[Tiddlypom]

For balance, the one and only time that I have knowingly interacted with an anti - that day the sabs were just checking that no illegal hunting was going on and were not interfering at all - it was left to him and to me to look after the few couple of hounds that the hunt had left behind to wander on the roads .

I only discovered that he was a sab because I asked him what group he belonged to.

Not the first time that I’ve stepped in to save hounds from being run over, but to do so that day in tandem with a sab was, err, strange.

I ended up promising him that I’d make sure that the hounds were safe so that he could carry on following the hunt. He was genuinely worried about them. More so than the hunt .

 

[skinnydipper]

There you are I meant to quote you before.
I would argue that hounds don't need training to hunt fox. They need training on when not to. That's where the huntsman/whips come in and that's the art and skill of trail hunting. I don't believe that changing the scent would wipe out thousands of years of DNA ancestry, anymore than it would for, say, pastoral breeds, because it is all in the training but I take your point.

You've had 20 years to train young hounds to follow artificial scent and we have been led to believe that some hunts actually do that.

If you can't do that then it doesn't say much for the scenting ability of the hounds or the skill of people who train them.

If you continue to train hounds to hunt using fox scent and then say 'hang on fellas, not that fox', from where I'm standing that doesn't look very clever.

When hunting is completely banned it will be the consequence of your (generic) actions and choices.

 

[palo1]

You've had 20 years to train young hounds to follow artificial scent and we have been led to believe that some hunts actually do that.

If you can't do that then doesn't say much for the scenting ability of the hounds or the skill of people who train them.

If you continue to train hounds to hunt using fox scent and then say 'hang on fellas, not that fox', from where I'm standing that doesn't look very clever.

When hunting is completely banned it will be the consequence of your (generic) actions and choices.

Yes, there has been time to train young hounds to follow an artificial scent but there has not been a requirement to do that under the law. Some hunters have been encouraged from the date of the Hunting Act to use the statutory instrument to enable them to continue hunting practices that are not illegal, because of the sense of significance in traditional hunting terms of that natural scent and the hound work that goes with it. I think it's important not to overlook the huge sense of injustice, as well as deliberate failure to try to understand traditional hunting, that many hunting communities still feel. 20 years after the act many hunting people still feel culturally and politically betrayed. That may mean nothing to anti-hunters of course but it does have a bearing on the current situation. With increased sabbing and political pressure on other field/blood sports (I am comfortable using that term) the ante has only been upped. As I have said, using a naturally derived scent may not be wise but it is not illegal.

As has been seen with the Banwen Miners, even bloodhounds that have never been trained on anything other than human trails, can make a mistake. Usually it is one of two hounds that might riot and that has to be dealt with. Many, many dogs generically can do things which put other animals at risk or actively harm them; with or without training. The vast majority of hounds are safer in the countryside than most domestic dogs.

 

[Sandstone1]

You've had 20 years to train young hounds to follow artificial scent and we have been led to believe that some hunts actually do that.

If you can't do that then doesn't say much for the scenting ability of the hounds or the skill of people who train them.

If you continue to train hounds to hunt using fox scent and then say 'hang on fellas, not that fox', from where I'm standing that doesn't look very clever.

When hunting is completely banned it will be the consequence of your (generic) actions and choices.

Exactly, When hunting is completely banned { Which it will} Watch for all the moaning about hounds being put down and blame the antis etc..... Will they remember they have had 20 years to train hounds to follow a artificial sent? I doubt it. Dogs sense of smell is many thousands of times better than ours. Dogs can be trained to tell the difference between scents such as drugs, explosives, money, cancer and many more. They can even be trained to find bed bugs! Can hunts train hounds to follow a scent other than fox? It seems not. Or is it because they simply do not want to? The old story of " its not the kill its the thrill of the chase" is BS. The die hard hunters simply enjoy killing. If not why continue to train hounds to fox scent? Why when its been 20 years are they still killing foxes? Why are they cub hunting?
The answer is simple. Its because they want to and they enjoy it.
Will they admit it? No. They dress it up as pest control.... If that were true they would be galloping down the high street as urban foxes are more of a pest than county foxes.
Tradition is another. Lots of things were traditional ie cock fighting, badger baiting dog fighting etc etc but they have been consigned to history.
The welfare of hounds comes low down when they are hunting main roads and railway lines.... They also have no worries about putting a bullet in hounds heads when it suits them.

 

[Trickywooo]

I've never trained my terrier to catch rats but he will chase them all the same and kill them if he catches them it's not about the training. It's about a huntsman having control of their hounds.

 

[equinerebel]

Yes, there has been time to train young hounds to follow an artificial scent but there has not been a requirement to do that under the law. Some hunters have been encouraged from the date of the Hunting Act to use the statutory instrument to enable them to continue hunting practices that are not illegal, because of the sense of significance in traditional hunting terms of that natural scent and the hound work that goes with it. I think it's important not to overlook the huge sense of injustice, as well as deliberate failure to try to understand traditional hunting, that many hunting communities still feel. 20 years after the act many hunting people still feel culturally and politically betrayed. That may mean nothing to anti-hunters of course but it does have a bearing on the current situation. With increased sabbing and political pressure on other field/blood sports (I am comfortable using that term) the ante has only been upped. As I have said, using a naturally derived scent may not be wise but it is not illegal.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't really get this angle. Times change, and in order to keep the cultural tradition alive, it's a no brainer that hunts needed to change with it. I understand they didn't legally have to stop using fox scent, but now we face an inevitable situation where all hunting with hounds will be banned. That could have been avoided and the cultural tradition kept alive, albeit modified for modern opinions and taste.

Sabs or no sabs, training hounds to follow a different scent should have been the obvious compromise if hunts intended to act within the law.

 

[suestowford]

I've never trained my terrier to catch rats but he will chase them all the same and kill them if he catches them it's not about the training. It's about a huntsman having control of their hounds.

This is very true, the huntsman does need to have control over the hounds. And in most cases I dare say they do have control over most of their hounds. Not the hounds who get left behind to find their own way home though. Or the ones who riot onto someone's pet cat. Or chase a fox into someone's back garden. Or find their way onto a main road. Or cross fields they shouldn't be in. With our countryside becoming ever busier/built on, I can only see these kinds of incidents becoming more frequent.

Also re. the huntsman having control over the hounds, if that huntsman has already been convicted of illegal hunting, he may have control but what is he asking them to do? I'd say it looks suspicious that such a person is given a second chance following a conviction. Those who are pro-hunt must see that this is a bad choice of appointment.

 

[ester]

My thought over them still using fox/natural scent (theoretically at least) is that because there’s a lot of that about too they have to spend more time casting to get on the right trail. Where aniseed etc is used for drag hunts everything goes a lot faster as it’s a clear trail distinguishable from everything around it and very A to B and that’s not what trail hunts are trying to simulate.

 

[PurpleSpots]

My thought over them still using fox/natural scent (theoretically at least) is that because there’s a lot of that about too they have to spend more time casting to get on the right trail. Where aniseed etc is used for drag hunts everything goes a lot faster as it’s a clear trail distinguishable from everything around it and very A to B and that’s not what trail hunts are trying to simulate.

Couldn't that 'issue' be solved by an experienced scent-layer though? One who lays a 'clever' trail rather than a dragged one?

 

[Trickywooo]

This is very true, the huntsman does need to have control over the hounds. And in most cases I dare say they do have control over most of their hounds. Not the hounds who get left behind to find their own way home though. Or the ones who riot onto someone's pet cat. Or chase a fox into someone's back garden. Or find their way onto a main road. Or cross fields they shouldn't be in. With our countryside becoming ever busier/built on, I can only see these kinds of incidents becoming more frequent.

Also re. the huntsman having control over the hounds, if that huntsman has already been convicted of illegal hunting, he may have control but what is he asking them to do? I'd say it looks suspicious that such a person is given a second chance following a conviction. Those who are pro-hunt must see that this is a bad choice of appointment.

Quite! So which is it if they catch a fox?

1. They have absolutely no control over their hounds whatsoever OR

2. They are actively encouraging them onto a fox

I don't believe training them to not chase foxes is entirely relevant as to be honest those instincts are to a hound as catching a rat would be to my terrier. If a huntsman has control of his hounds then it is of no relevance as he should be able to recall them in an instant. Those that kill foxes, attack pets, rampage through people's gardens etc either have no control of their packs or are actively encouraging them to hunt foxes and/or don't care.

 

[Fellewell]

You've had 20 years to train young hounds to follow artificial scent and we have been led to believe that some hunts actually do that.

If you can't do that then it doesn't say much for the scenting ability of the hounds or the skill of people who train them.

If you continue to train hounds to hunt using fox scent and then say 'hang on fellas, not that fox', from where I'm standing that doesn't look very clever.

When hunting is completely banned it will be the consequence of your (generic) actions and choices.

The factor that will finish hunting is the same one that is destroying much of our wildlife and that is lack of habitat/country. There is a constant struggle with deer management between environment and conservation. I'm seeing lone badgers out in the daytime. There are fewer and fewer hedgehogs (many diseased). Mange ridden older foxes and the cubs driven onto the roads and killed every year because they lose fights for territory already claimed. In many areas they are just trapped/shot all year round.
Hunters have traditionally been custodians of the countryside. Wildlife management has always been about equilibrium rather than extermination. Who is actually taking care of this now? Charities? You can't just leave it all to Brian May and his wonderfully distinctive guitar sound.
I think the hunting act muddied the waters for both pro and anti campaigners but no one on here is claiming that trail hunts don't routinely use artificial scent. As for the hounds, I don't want to see them 'exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage' (R. Waters, great lyricist, don't always agree with his politics.)

 

[Millionwords]

Mange ridden older foxes and the cubs driven onto the roads and killed every year because they lose fights for territory already claimed. In many areas they are just trapped/shot all year round.

Then the roads are doing it in lieu of the hunters then.. Being as they claim to take out the sick/old ones only.... (though I'm not sure how a sick, old ones give the long chase that they hope for). So theres no issue.

The badgers have been out in the day as ground has been hard and dry... So they're spending extra time foraging as digging is too difficult.
How do we know the hedgehogs are diseased?

 

[Indy]

For balance, the one and only time that I have knowingly interacted with an anti - that day the sabs were just checking that no illegal hunting was going on and were not interfering at all - it was left to him and to me to look after the few couple of hounds that the hunt had left behind to wander on the roads .

I only discovered that he was a sab because I asked him what group he belonged to.

Not the first time that I’ve stepped in to save hounds from being run over, but to do so that day in tandem with a sab was, err, strange.

I ended up promising him that I’d make sure that the hounds were safe so that he could carry on following the hunt. He was genuinely worried about them. More so than the hunt .

Maybe fox scent continued to be used because the hunts hoped that the ban would be overturned.

 

[I'm Dun]

The method of scent marking and territorial behaviour has long been part of the fox's appeal. The myriad ways foxes mark boundaries /behaviour is a challenge for any animal, even hounds who can distinguish between thousands of different scents, old and new. It is quite possible to simulate fox urine but that wont stop them overmarking it, although much of what foxes communicate to each other is above ground. As you will know when finding scat halfway up the ragwort you want to pull.
Following a pre-laid trail is straight forward for hounds. The art is in the training, when following the trail the hounds will put up any number of 'non-target species' which they will ignore. That's what they've been trained to do. That is the huntsman's job. The problem occurs when others, followers or sabs, deliberately interfere with the hounds. Anyone who trains canines will know that the ability to scent is deeply compromised when confidence is lost.

I have a working bred whippet here, genuinely the best working dog I've ever seen and coveted by anyone who sees him. He knows when a deer is nearby when we are driving in the car. On the ground he can tell at huge distances that there's prey about. He was born knowing how to find, chase and take down deer etc, its in his DNA. He has zero interest in farm animals etc, but anything he reocgnises as prey, he will, if allowed, hunt and take down

Hes super smart and super trainable. I could train him to hunt a scent in a couple of sessions, and he would be good at it. But the first time he came across real deer scent doing it, he'd immediately change track. The drive and instinct in him is so strong. I cant see how any animal bred in a similar way, ie generations of dogs bred to hunt a specific thing, can then be stopped.

I never really got it till I got this dog, now I'm genuinely stunned that anyone thought hounds could rampage around the countryside, loose, and not chase foxes,

 

[palo1]

I have a working bred whippet here, genuinely the best working dog I've ever seen and coveted by anyone who sees him. He knows when a deer is nearby when we are driving in the car. On the ground he can tell at huge distances that there's prey about. He was born knowing how to find, chase and take down deer etc, its in his DNA. He has zero interest in farm animals etc, but anything he reocgnises as prey, he will, if allowed, hunt and take down

Hes super smart and super trainable. I could train him to hunt a scent in a couple of sessions, and he would be good at it. But the first time he came across real deer scent doing it, he'd immediately change track. The drive and instinct in him is so strong. I cant see how any animal bred in a similar way, ie generations of dogs bred to hunt a specific thing, can then be stopped.

I never really got it till I got this dog, now I'm genuinely stunned that anyone thought hounds could rampage around the countryside, loose, and not chase foxes,

I would say that on average fox hounds are very, very different to sight hounds; temperamentally they are much more confident in a pack and single Foxhounds can really lack confidence. They really depend on the pack for so much security in so many things: hunting and eating included.

Sight hounds tend to be much more independent and that is largely due to their history and working role. Foxhounds vary enormously in their talents and abilities - many completely lack any aggression at all towards a prey animal but have fabulous noses, or huge stamina or a wonderful voice. You need that variety in a pack and managing a pack is quite different to a single or pair of sighthounds/lurchers etc who can be more multi-skilled and individually confident.

 

[palo1]

Maybe fox scent continued to be used because the hunts hoped that the ban would be overturned.

This, indeed, and as a matter of principle for some.

 

[I'm Dun]

I would say that on average fox hounds are very, very different to sight hounds; temperamentally they are much more confident in a pack and single Foxhounds can really lack confidence. They really depend on the pack for so much security in so many things: hunting and eating included.

Sight hounds tend to be much more independent and that is largely due to their history and working role. Foxhounds vary enormously in their talents and abilities - many completely lack any aggression at all towards a prey animal but have fabulous noses, or huge stamina or a wonderful voice. You need that variety in a pack and managing a pack is quite different to a single or pair of sighthounds/lurchers etc who can be more multi-skilled and individually confident.

but how do they stop them doing something they have been bred for multiple generations for, especially when they are in a pack and loose in big areas

 

[ester]

they can though, it happens plenty when you’re on patchy country where they don’t have permission to go in certain directions. I’ve always been very impressed given the general public’s lack of control over their single dog.

 

[palo1]

they can though, it happens plenty when you’re on patchy country where they don’t have permission to go in certain directions. I’ve always been very impressed given the general public’s lack of control over their single dog.

This. My experience is that the pack is responsive to instruction and it is quite something to see a huntsman turn hounds round when needed. Occasionally one or two hounds have run on but they will do whatever they can to get back with the rest of the pack. That can be difficult if people try to pick them up or rescue them - they tend to try to avoid strangers. It can vary, depending on country and breeding to an extent: Fell hounds have been bred to be much more independent where it used to be said that you should be able to throw a blanket over a packing English hounds. It's really hard to know why, occasionally, a formerly steady hound might riot but in general hounds are delighted to return to the huntsman or whip,with whom they are, or should be, confident and familiar.

 

[Millionwords]

This. My experience is that the pack is responsive to instruction and it is quite something to see a huntsman turn hounds round when needed. Occasionally one or two hounds have run on but they will do whatever they can to get back with the rest of the pack. That can be difficult if people try to pick them up or rescue them - they tend to try to avoid strangers. It can vary, depending on country and breeding to an extent: Fell hounds have been bred to be much more independent where it used to be said that you should be able to throw a blanket over a packing English hounds. It's really hard to know why, occasionally, a formerly steady hound might riot but in general hounds are delighted to return to the huntsman or whip,with whom they are, or should be, confident and familiar.

In that case all these "accidents" with foxes, can't be accidents at all.
And rioting on pets shouldn't happen either.

 

[palo1]

In that case all these "accidents" with foxes, can't be accidents at all.
And rioting on pets shouldn't happen either.

Rioting on pets or livestock is appalling and a huntsman should always be able to control hounds. Some elements of the Hunting Act have possibly contributed to hunters being more distant from lead hounds than formerly but I have seen hounds stopped from full cry when they are heading towards ground where they don't have permission: I would suggest packs that sabs and monitors have visited and found no problems with have demonstrated this(among other elements of control). I see hounds under very tight control very frequently.

 

[palo1]

In that case all these "accidents" with foxes, can't be accidents at all.
And rioting on pets shouldn't happen either.

It is entirely possible for hounds following the scent of a fox to have an accident; there are many ways that might happen, including sabs turning a fox, or unintentionally changing its course through their presence or noise. The law is clear about 'intent' however. The Act made that differentiation a fundamental part of the compromise of course.

 

[skinnydipper]

There seems to be a thing here about controlling the hounds to stop them doing something that they shouldn't be doing but which they have been trained to do by the people who are then trying to stop them doing it.

 

[Sandstone1]

There seems to be a thing here about controlling the hounds to stop them doing something that they shouldn't be doing but which they have been trained to do by the people who are then trying to stop them doing it.

Quite, So if the hounds are under such good control why at least where I live are they still hunting and killing foxes? It can not be by accident as the hounds are under such good control? Recently, hunt members are often seen surrounding maize fields etc while hounds are put in to the maize. Now what would they be doing that for...... I wonder what they could possibly be doing......

 

[Sandstone1]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1266414371154196

Why would you put your horse in danger like this?

 

[Nasicus]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something here, but that's something that could happen to any of us, surely? They couldn't go forwards and past due to the car blocking them (Sab Vehicle?), so they tucked in to the side. Horse spooked a couple of times so he trots it down the road, presumably to find a better passing place?

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% not in any support of illegal hunting, but this seems like a massive stretch. But like I said, maybe I'm missing something.