Hunting is in a spot of bother

BeckyFlowers

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And the sabs are increasing their 'range' ...latest updates from the HSA include angling in their pursuits:-

''The number of sab groups including angling in their activities is increasing. On the whole anglers are less likely to get pleasure out of the suffering they cause than hunters and enjoy instead the mindlessness of outwitting a fish into impaling itself on a hook, they don’t tend to be inherently violent. This is a bonus if you are a small group, as you can sab more anglers than you might want to confront if they were all blood crazed terrier boys. The other thing about sabbing angling, is that it can form a satisfying end to a day, after dealing with a hound pack.'' (https://www.huntsabs.org.uk/sabbing-angling/). I suppose at least they are getting a day out in the countryside!
I'm not sure what this brings to the discussion re this thread - from what I can gather most people on here are of the opinion that the sabs behave badly just as the hunts who are acting illegally and/or disrespectfully do.
 

Nasicus

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And the sabs are increasing their 'range' ...latest updates from the HSA include angling in their pursuits:-

''The number of sab groups including angling in their activities is increasing. On the whole anglers are less likely to get pleasure out of the suffering they cause than hunters and enjoy instead the mindlessness of outwitting a fish into impaling itself on a hook, they don’t tend to be inherently violent. This is a bonus if you are a small group, as you can sab more anglers than you might want to confront if they were all blood crazed terrier boys. The other thing about sabbing angling, is that it can form a satisfying end to a day, after dealing with a hound pack.'' (https://www.huntsabs.org.uk/sabbing-angling/). I suppose at least they are getting a day out in the countryside!
Latest updates? That article came from a magazine in 1992 lol
"Reproduced from HOWL (No 49, Summer 92) – magazine of the Hunt Saboteurs Association "
 

palo1

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Latest updates? That article came from a magazine in 1992 lol
"Reproduced from HOWL (No 49, Summer 92) – magazine of the Hunt Saboteurs Association "
Doh!! Their bad though as it is the latest info on their website ;);) I do hope someone has warned Jeremy Wade...
 

palo1

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I'm not sure what this brings to the discussion re this thread - from what I can gather most people on here are of the opinion that the sabs behave badly just as the hunts who are acting illegally and/or disrespectfully do.
Well you are probably right and no, it doesn't particularly add anything to the discussion except that I feel the need to point out that those that present information to the media most often about hunting and 'hunting incidents' are questionable in a number of ways. If it would help to get back on track it is not difficult to find video footage of sabs spraying hounds with chemicals... I have no strong feelings about fishing at all btw.

You are probably right about most people feeling sabs act badly but that doesn't seem to stop them from believing what the HSA spouts.
 

BeckyFlowers

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Well you are probably right and no, it doesn't particularly add anything to the discussion except that I feel the need to point out that those that present information to the media most often about hunting and 'hunting incidents' are questionable in a number of ways. If it would help to get back on track it is not difficult to find video footage of sabs spraying hounds with chemicals... I have no strong feelings about fishing at all btw.

You are probably right about most people feeling sabs act badly but that doesn't seem to stop them from believing what the HSA spouts.
I don't think it matters what people believe or don't believe, or what side of the fence they are re hunting, but when a pack of hunt dogs bust onto someone's property and kill pets or livestock (or foxes!), or chase pets or livestock, the hunter in charge of controlling the dogs has clearly failed. In my view there is absolutely no defence or excuse for this happening. The HSA can spout what it likes (I have never actively listened to anything they say) but when the hunter loses control of the dogs there can be no excuse. I don't see it any differently than someone walking a dog that does the same thing.
 

palo1

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It was a fair point, Palo. The sabs will increase their range if hunting all turns demonstrably squeaky clean. Fishing and shooting are obvious targets, if you'll pardon the pun.
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Yes, and then what? I can see the time that what we now see as 'extremists' will campaign for no domestic animals, no pets and of course that would threaten the thing that here we are most passionate about. I really don't want to return to a discussion about the killing of foxes as that IS illegal when carried out by hounds but one of the unintended consequences of the hunting act was that the welfare of individual animals became more influential than the welfare of the species and that is not 'big picture/ecosystem' thinking. I think that is a fearful environmental and human situation to find ourselves in.
 

Tiddlypom

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I do agree Palo1. Farmers would leave foxes and the hunt would cull the weakest thus leaving a stronger species. Farmers now shoot them all so actually more foxes get killed than the hunt ever did.

Just saying that's all.
There are a lot of us on here who hunted pre ban, and we agree on that. The fox population was better regarded by farmers and healthier when fox hunting was legal.

However, that was then...
 

ycbm

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In the absence of hunting the sabs have already targeted shoots in this area. That is why all country sports need to stand together and work as one. The sabs will target shooting then fishing, the extremists wont be happy until anything involving animals is banned.

I don't agree I'm afraid. If trail and drag hunting want to survive, I think they need to distance themselves swiftly from the killing of any animal.
 

Tiddlypom

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In the absence of hunting the sabs have already targeted shoots in this area. That is why all country sports need to stand together and work as one. The sabs will target shooting then fishing, the extremists wont be happy until anything involving animals is banned.
I know that this is what the pro field sports peeps keep saying, but sabs round here are leaving my now legit local pack alone, although they keep an eye on them.
 

ycbm

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I do agree Palo1. Farmers would leave foxes and the hunt would cull the weakest thus leaving a stronger species. Farmers now shoot them all so actually more foxes get killed than the hunt ever did.

Just saying that's all.
Can of worms! :)

Is it ok, then, to leave foxes alive so they can be chased for sport?

Is there any shortage of foxes, as a whole?

Do they need to be made stronger? The urban ones seem very strong and big to me when they are released here by the RSPCA to be promptly shot by farmers.
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palo1

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I know that this is what the pro field sports peeps keep saying, but sabs round here are leaving my now legit local pack alone, although they keep an eye on them.
Yes, sabs may leave the legit packs alone at the moment (if only, actually...) but they have already started to target shoots and fishing which are entirely legal.
 

palo1

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Can of worms! :)

Is it ok, then, to leave foxes alive so they can be chased for sport?

Is there any shortage of foxes, as a whole?

Do they need to be made stronger? The urban ones seem very strong and big to me when they are released here by the RSPCA to be promptly shot by farmers.
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I think the key difference here is that hunters (the world over)would say that it is NOT sport but utility in one way or another - sport is, in this sense, a reductive term (from an anthropological point of view and as regarded by cultural legal bodies) and ethically this has been called into question. There is a generally accepted difficulty with the idea that one lot of people can tell another lot how to classify and manage their 'culture' and very well respected international organisations work hard to push back against this form of globalisation, homogenisation and in some cases colonialisation of cultures. In the UK, fox hunting was carried out by a very small 'team' of people, with the 'sport' element being that of those following the skilled hunters (the team/hunt staff). Objection to viewing a kill is utterly nonsensical - if that objection had any real traction in this country David Attenborough would have been a non-starter as a national treasure!! It is entirely clear that anti-fox hunting protestors abhor those people engaged in fox-hunting rather than the practice itself. However, that practice is now illegal.

It is interesting to consider other contexts for hunting and the difficulties that it causes cultures not in the UK. For example: https://www.survivalinternational.org/about/hunting monitors and documents this very thing. I admit that I support this charity, but certainly not purely for it's stance on hunting. Survival International certainly views a variety of forms of hunting as culturally valid and worth protecting. A great deal of research around contemporary attitudes to hunting resonates with those who have deep environmental concerns and a committment to protect traditional cultures.

Foxes, along with every other species within an ecosystem, need to face natural ecological pressures in order for the species to thrive. Sadly I see a number of mangy urban foxes as well as those so bold as to not move more than 10 yards from an approaching horse.
 

Ditchjumper2

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Can of worms! :)

Is it ok, then, to leave foxes alive so they can be chased for sport?

Is there any shortage of foxes, as a whole?

Do they need to be made stronger? The urban ones seem very strong and big to me when they are released here by the RSPCA to be promptly shot by farmers.
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I am more getting at tbe sabs view that they save foxes wheres actually more end up getting killed but by farmers that's all.

I agree that most hunts are their own worse enemy.
 

Tiddlypom

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It is entirely clear that anti-fox hunting protestors abhor those people engaged in fox-hunting rather than the practice itself. However, that practice is now illegal.
I rather think that anti fox hunting protestors detest those who engage in fox hunting AND the practice itself.

Going back to my posts on hunt trespass, on none of those days were any antis out at all, so there is no one else to blame bar the hunt itself for the sat nav failures.
 

ycbm

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I am more getting at tbe sabs view that they save foxes wheres actually more end up getting killed but by farmers that's all.

I agree that most hunts are their own worse enemy.

I get it. There never was any argument that it would save or improve any foxes lives. It was a blatantly political move to ban it but it's done now and I can't see any government repealing it. It's sad for people who genuinely believe its the right thing for foxes and the country, but I do hope they reconcile themselves to the permanence of the situation soon.
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palo1

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I rather think that anti fox hunting protestors detest those who engage in fox hunting AND the practice itself.

Going back to my posts on hunt trespass, on none of those days were any antis out at all, so there is no one else to blame bar the hunt itself for the sat nav failures.
And on this occasion the antis were trespassing where there was not a hunt. Trespass is not the sole preserve of the hunting community by a very, very long way...trespass happens far too regularly in many ways and causes considerable distress.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/n...ts-gang-balaclava-wearing-hunt-saboteurs.html
 

Tiddlypom

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Palo, I have posted repeatedly that I do not condone active disruption of hunts by sabs by horn calls, intimidation, violence etc. My money is on the monitors. The best evidence is from covert cctv, which has caught the infamous Kimblewick Hunt out twice now.

I will stick by my point that some hunts do not much care whether they have permission to cross the land they are on or not. I know that you find that hard to believe.
 

palo1

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Slightly off topic but I have been wondering, if the HSA really wants to disrupt angling activities, when it will be ok for them to yell 'hunting scum' or other slogans to stop small children putting out a crab line in seaside harbours? Or perhaps they will just stick to intimidating wealthy people fishing on expensive beats whose fish stocks (such as they are) and waters are maintained for that... I know @Tiddlypom that you don't condone this behaviour - I certainly haven't meant to suggest that you do.

Shooting is within the sights of the anti-hunt brigade already and is starting to feel a degree of pressure. Fishing is bound to follow not long after. I wonder when people will start to see the Hunting Act as one of the worst pieces of bad news for the countryside and our traditional rural culture and relationship with the land and nature...Thankfully, in spite of very strong opinions, on the whole here the discussion has been safe and civilised. :)
 

palo1

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Palo, I have posted repeatedly that I do not condone active disruption of hunts by sabs by horn calls, intimidation, violence etc. My money is on the monitors. The best evidence is from covert cctv, which has caught the infamous Kimblewick Hunt out twice now.

I will stick by my point that some hunts do not much care whether they have permission to cross the land they are on or not. I know that you find that hard to believe.
Monitors are fine but they will find they have problems with the use of drones.
 

palo1

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I can see why people that don't agree with fox hunting would also disagree with shooting, can't be that much of a surprise. If I'm completely honest commercial shooting bothers me more then fox hunting.
I understand this too and there are plenty of incidents where shooting parties/commercial shoots have been reported to have behaved badly but I sincerely hope that the same pattern of mutual abuse and 'behaviour reporting' such as is the case with trail hunting does not impact on shooting or fishing. I would hope that lessons learnt would include the need for better strategies; description of 'incidents' and media headlines does not help one bit.
 

Fellewell

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I think the vast majority of hunts are certainly aware of the need to be demonstrably following the law but that is not the story that the anti-hunt brigade will want to tell. The small number of misbehaving hunts are a grim minority and when you have been taunted, baited, harrassed, followed, fillmed, shouted at and on occasions physically assaulted or frightened (for example, by having your horses reins grabbed by an anti) it is inevitable and intended for people to lose their cool. That is an absolute basic of sab tactics of course.
So agree with this post.
The actions of hunt saboteurs often do more to facilitate a kill than prevent one. You could say this was ironic but if the definition of irony is the direct opposite of what's intended, you would need to know their intentions. Given their behaviour/attitude towards hounds, horses and ponies, I seriously question their true intentions.
The demise of hunting will come about because of a lack of country. This will eventually affect us all so be careful what you wish for.
 

Miss_Millie

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So agree with this post.
The actions of hunt saboteurs often do more to facilitate a kill than prevent one. You could say this was ironic but if the definition of irony is the direct opposite of what's intended, you would need to know their intentions. Given their behaviour/attitude towards hounds, horses and ponies, I seriously question their true intentions.
The demise of hunting will come about because of a lack of country. This will eventually affect us all so be careful what you wish for.
The demise of hunting will not come about because of lack of country, but because the countryside is becoming a more diverse place and the majority of the public do not agree with fox hunting (hence the ban). Hunting continues to get bad press, even if it is legal trail hunting, because of damage and trespass, pets being killed, livestock being attacked, and certain individuals who think they are above the lockdown laws, that the majority of us are obeying, despite the impact on our mental health.

Not to mention, countless hunts are STILL flouting the law and killing foxes. When 'accidents' happen (like the recent killing of the cat, Spider), the general public will only become more angry and frustrated that someone's idea of a fun day out = their beloved pet being savagely murdered by dogs on their own property.
 

GoldenWillow

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I really don’t believe that this is the norm. How is it that this doesn't seem to be the case in packs local to me? I remember once my stirrup flying off the bar at a flat out gallop, in order to emergency pull my horse up I did a big turn and one of his hooves went on the drilled field. Boy did I (rightly so) get a bollocking and I was mortified!

Every single hunt I’ve ever hunted with, trail or drag (and in total that’s 8 different packs) have been nothing but hugely respectful and grateful to landowners.

Is it just fluke that I have decent packs where I am!?
I can only speak of the two packs local to me, one afaik from close friends isn't too bad but has a few times that they know of gone onto land they should not of. The pack that hunts in my immediate area went on land both that they were specifically asked not to by the land owner who's land they were allowed to hunt on, and on land that they had no permission to be on on numerous occasions. That includes going through my field which is set in a parcel of land approx 30 acres non of which they had permission to be on.
 

Tiddlypom

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I can’t confirm the authencity of these particular exchanges, but I can confirm that these are typical of hunt incursions onto farmers land that I personally know of, such onto my vet‘s farm. Permission was given by my vet‘s husband to access most of his land, but to stay off other areas, for perfectly good farming reasons. So the hunt rode right across the forbidden area...

I do know which pack is referred to in the first exchange, it is not my local pack. I’ve blanked out the name.
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Ceriann

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I live and keep my horses next to a wildlife trust reserve. The trust has not permitted the local hunt to use their land for over 10 years yet each year they use the reserve. They are also known to flout the hunting ban - I have viewed them from my own yard on the reserve clearly not following a trail. The reserve is a wildlife reserve and is also used by local dog walkers, who get no warning to keep away on the days they stray onto the land. They also often make a mess of the land they use - reserve or adjoining farmers land. The most recent hunts (pre COVID) that went on the reserve ignored trust volunteers who turned out to police the restricted access - poor hound management being blamed.

The local view is hardening as a result and I have also been in touch with the trust to ask what steps are being taken to enforce their ban. It’s clear the hunt has a sense of entitlement and a complete lack of awareness of the dwindling support they have - not a good mix.
 

palo1

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And yet, we have permission to trail hunt across a nature reserve; that is reserved for the huntsman and hounds only; the field must stay outside the reserve which we do; it is usually a good opportunity for a chat and catch up. We can watch hounds and follow them via the lane and fields surrounding the actual reserve. If you want a gentle day, this meet is a good one! We have had this privelage for a number of years and we are glad of it. We are also able to ride across land where there is an area of real sensitivity in terms of plant life. Again, we have had this meet many times, everyone is clearly instructed as to where they can and cannot ride and we have had no problems. Constant reporting of 'issues' on either side really doesn't achieve anything as both points of view can evidence positive and negative stories.
 
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