Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
I can only assume it's because they think they are above the law.
Hunting is in a spot of bother
- Thread starter Tiddlypom
- Start date
I can only assume it's because they think they are above the law.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I think the vast majority of hunts are certainly aware of the need to be demonstrably following the law but that is not the story that the anti-hunt brigade will want to tell. The small number of misbehaving hunts are a grim minority and when you have been taunted, baited, harrassed, followed, fillmed, shouted at and on occasions physically assaulted or frightened (for example, by having your horses reins grabbed by an anti) it is inevitable and intended for people to lose their cool. That is an absolute basic of sab tactics of course.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
But that can happen in all 'controversial' activities. I used to live near a big animal testing lab and the activists could get very scary there, but the protocol for members of staff to deal/interact with them was very strict. Could the hunts not train members on how to deal with sabs?
palo1
Well-Known Member
I don't think that is the case although it may be in some instances. A great deal of the time, the response to antis/sabs is driven by actual fear or total frustration and outrage that a legal activity is being interrupted by a group of masked vigilantes that would not be tolerated by society in ANY other settting. That is one reason why the police are often perceived to be on the side of hunters - they are pursuing a legal activity and the police, on the whole, have no time whatsoever for people who conceal their identity and are intent on harm/disruption/causing offence and or intimidation. It is not really what the UK stands for...
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Exactly it is their tactic, even more reason not to go along with it.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I think that is what those infamous webinar sessions were supposed to be doing....!!
People working in an animal testing lab are professionals - most responses to Sab activity are from members of the field who are not professional in that setting. Hunt staff tend to cope much better in my experience and often try to kill the SABS with kindness as a tactic; terribly polite when they have to be but on the whole completely disengaged.palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes, but much easier said than done, especially when it is your child/husband/wife/friend under attack.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
rules of behaviour are set out at the start of every meet though, why shouldn't that cover interactions with sabs? In fact I have certainly heard it come up when their attendance has been likely.
BeckyFlowers
Well-Known Member
Disgusting behaviour on both sides.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
What proportion of hunts are legally trail hunting, though? You still seem to believe that only a small minority of hunts are deliberately flouting the law.
If it wasn’t for the antis, my local pack would still be fox hunting.
Michen
Well-Known Member
I have in the last 6 months hunted with 4 different trail packs and not seen any break the law ?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
They have not been a minority in Cheshire where TP and I live. I also know people who have talked openly about hunting fox post ban in Derbyshire and Leicestershire.
In one notable conversation the husband of someone I knew well was complaining about sab behaviour. I asked him why they were being sabbed and he looked at me as if I was a bit dim and said "because we hunt fox of course!".
If trail hunting wants to be free of sabs they have to rid their sport of people hunting fox.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
As posted by many of us on here, any genuinely legal trail packs still operating need to get out from their current organising body and set up on their own.
stormox
Well-Known Member
A lot of the time the 'sabs' don't have permission to be on the private land, whereas the hunt (as far as I know) has got permission from the landowner.
Hunts that are obeying the law and trail hunting have every right to be angry with the sabs.
The sabs do not discriminate between legal and illegal hunts.
Hunts that are obeying the law and trail hunting have every right to be angry with the sabs.
The sabs do not discriminate between legal and illegal hunts.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Hunts often trespass onto land on which they have no permission to be on.
The sabs and monitors are leaving my now legit local pack alone, although they do keep an eye on them.
The sabs and monitors are leaving my now legit local pack alone, although they do keep an eye on them.
Last edited:
palo1
Well-Known Member
Baily's hunting directory have published this today: https://www.bailyshuntingdirectory....6i-VRhdzpKRLsDpFkboQw4GRB-9nO1nscF3bTRcO0KxaM.
In this guest editorial Ivan Massow MFH describes the birth pains of a new Club supporting Trail laying.
There will be few hunting enthusiasts who didn’t wake up in a cold sweat, the morning news broke of the MFHAs terrible “smokescreen” gaffe during their now infamous Zoom conference. It was not what was said in the video conference but the way it was said, any impartial observer was left with the impression that there was something to hide. Less inflammatory phrases such as ‘best endeavours’ or ‘all reasonable efforts’ could and should have been used – but weren’t, the phrase used was ‘smoke screen’ a phrase that immediately suggests that something is being concealed.
Masters and field followers alike, who have been hunting within the law, laying trails for the last 15 years, could hardly believe their ears. For many of us involved in putting on a day’s trail-hunting in country nestled between trendy, increasingly urban cities, and the countless suburban districts that pepper-pot our dog-walker dominated landscape, it’s not like we’ve ever had the option to break the law. In order to keep our traditions alive and prevent our community of farmers, equine enthusiasts and country folk, from being overrun by urbanites who have been told by various pressure group that they have the inalienable right to use someone’s else land as their own. Trail hunting has never been a “smokescreen”, it’s been a real part of everyday life and what’s more, an increasing number of people have grown to love it.
And what’s not to love? Stunning winter days spent with friends, in wonderful countryside, watching skilled hounds pursue an even more skilfully laid scent.
Sadly, all of this is threatened by the failure of a handful of people to take responsibility as they allow the situation to limp on in the hope that COVID paralysis will divert attention and save the day. It is no longer enough to hope that things will simply blow over during lockdown, measures must be taken to demonstrate to a largely alienated critical audience that there we have nothing to hide. Hunting today is not the blatant pursuance of foxes in breach of the law, it is a maintaining of tradition and the hunting community within the law. The exemptions within the Act are not ‘loopholes’ but are essential on the grounds of utility and welfare.
Of course, this isn’t just about the Hunting Office’s perceived failure to take swift decisive mitigating action, which in any other environment would begin with the obvious; suspending the individuals who, let’s face it, messed-up royally. Or, likewise, taking a robust line with hunts who serially do the same; their antics filling the papers and the 10 o’clock news. It’s that, long before “smokescreen-gate” (cries of ‘smokescreen’ now the mantra of every balaclava-wearing student), the MFHA failed to mention, until very recently let alone celebrate, Trail Hunting anywhere on their website despite having 15 years to do so.
For those who take on a Mastership, they quickly discover that it’s almost a full-time job, or should be if they’re doing it right. Most have built their people and organisational skills running businesses, handling publicity and using it to turn disasters into triumph. Our Chairman is one such individual and in the face of the emerging PR disaster, he was swift to put together a team that could create a positive response to the crisis.
It took a small team less than 24 hours to conceptualise and build trail layers club (www.trail-layers.org). The brief was simple; to create an open, upbeat celebration of our beloved pastime supported by a Facebook page where people can upload trail videos and images. To be clear, this is not and never was a political move or a bid to create a rival organisation. The trail layers club is just there to celebrate what we do and help those beleaguered lobbyists in our magnificent organisations like the Countryside Alliance, explain to, growingly impatient, Members of Parliament, why they shouldn’t simply make hunting with hounds, even trail hunting, totally illegal once and for all.
Unfortunately, the road to politics is paved with good intentions and unintentionally the trail layers club landed in the thick of it. For reasons still unknown the principal players, moved to frustrate and silence all other voices and offers of help. A reasonable observer would be forgiven for believing that the trail layers club, rather than the perpetrators of this mess, were the problem!
The day the site went live, calls were received from no fewer than three of the most senior MFHA officers. These calls culminating in a request that the entire site was taken down pending a committee investigation and subsequent decision some two weeks later.
After four weeks with no further communication, whilst being continuously bombarded with letters of encouragement and offers of donations from people eager to support a fresh approach celebrating our way of life, notification was sent to the hunting office that the site would be reinstated and asking them to sign off on a nothing more than a simple link to their website- a link that envisages and promotes a positive future for hunting with hounds.
Finally, finally, the closest thing to support or even receiving their blessing arrived. A page of text for us to include on the site. Unfortunately, however, that was the last helpful gesture we received. For example, we wrote to a master featured in the wonderful video on the Countryside Alliance website to ask his permission to showcase this video on our new website trail-layers.org. How could he possibly object?
It is impossible not to acknowledge the irony of having to ask his permission to use a video promoting trail laying on a website specifically designed to create positive messaging about Trail hunting. The individual’s own hunt has become a regular fixture on the ITV News for both allegations of animal cruelty and illegal foxhunting over the last two seasons (along with the one he mentors). Depressingly, but not surprisingly, the answer, copied into the Hunting Office, of course, came back as ‘NO!’.
At the present time, COVID has put hunting largely out of action and allowed things to quieten down, hopefully for long enough for MPs to allow us to put the case for our amazing lifestyle, hunting with hounds has always adapted to fundamental changes, e.g. railways, wire, motorways and increasing urbanization, but we need to provide a route map to enable the National Trust, the Forestry Commission and the other Parks and landowners to reconsider their decisions to ban trail hunting from their land. If those that ‘govern’ the direction of hunting refuse to countenance change then it’s hard to see all of this land returning to us, if any. Whatever happens, inactivity on our part is not, and in fact never was, a viable option if we want to run hounds over it in the future. We all need to start making lots of noise about Trail-hunting and what it means to our communities – and surely the Hunting Office at the very least, should be seen to be helping and encouraging those people who are willing to dedicate their time and resources to making this happen.
NB www.trail-layers.org is chaired by Ivan Massow MFH and their Patron is The Countess of Denbigh & Desmond
Image of the Border Beagles courtesy Daryl Owen 2020''
In this guest editorial Ivan Massow MFH describes the birth pains of a new Club supporting Trail laying.
There will be few hunting enthusiasts who didn’t wake up in a cold sweat, the morning news broke of the MFHAs terrible “smokescreen” gaffe during their now infamous Zoom conference. It was not what was said in the video conference but the way it was said, any impartial observer was left with the impression that there was something to hide. Less inflammatory phrases such as ‘best endeavours’ or ‘all reasonable efforts’ could and should have been used – but weren’t, the phrase used was ‘smoke screen’ a phrase that immediately suggests that something is being concealed.
Masters and field followers alike, who have been hunting within the law, laying trails for the last 15 years, could hardly believe their ears. For many of us involved in putting on a day’s trail-hunting in country nestled between trendy, increasingly urban cities, and the countless suburban districts that pepper-pot our dog-walker dominated landscape, it’s not like we’ve ever had the option to break the law. In order to keep our traditions alive and prevent our community of farmers, equine enthusiasts and country folk, from being overrun by urbanites who have been told by various pressure group that they have the inalienable right to use someone’s else land as their own. Trail hunting has never been a “smokescreen”, it’s been a real part of everyday life and what’s more, an increasing number of people have grown to love it.
And what’s not to love? Stunning winter days spent with friends, in wonderful countryside, watching skilled hounds pursue an even more skilfully laid scent.
Sadly, all of this is threatened by the failure of a handful of people to take responsibility as they allow the situation to limp on in the hope that COVID paralysis will divert attention and save the day. It is no longer enough to hope that things will simply blow over during lockdown, measures must be taken to demonstrate to a largely alienated critical audience that there we have nothing to hide. Hunting today is not the blatant pursuance of foxes in breach of the law, it is a maintaining of tradition and the hunting community within the law. The exemptions within the Act are not ‘loopholes’ but are essential on the grounds of utility and welfare.
Of course, this isn’t just about the Hunting Office’s perceived failure to take swift decisive mitigating action, which in any other environment would begin with the obvious; suspending the individuals who, let’s face it, messed-up royally. Or, likewise, taking a robust line with hunts who serially do the same; their antics filling the papers and the 10 o’clock news. It’s that, long before “smokescreen-gate” (cries of ‘smokescreen’ now the mantra of every balaclava-wearing student), the MFHA failed to mention, until very recently let alone celebrate, Trail Hunting anywhere on their website despite having 15 years to do so.
For those who take on a Mastership, they quickly discover that it’s almost a full-time job, or should be if they’re doing it right. Most have built their people and organisational skills running businesses, handling publicity and using it to turn disasters into triumph. Our Chairman is one such individual and in the face of the emerging PR disaster, he was swift to put together a team that could create a positive response to the crisis.
It took a small team less than 24 hours to conceptualise and build trail layers club (www.trail-layers.org). The brief was simple; to create an open, upbeat celebration of our beloved pastime supported by a Facebook page where people can upload trail videos and images. To be clear, this is not and never was a political move or a bid to create a rival organisation. The trail layers club is just there to celebrate what we do and help those beleaguered lobbyists in our magnificent organisations like the Countryside Alliance, explain to, growingly impatient, Members of Parliament, why they shouldn’t simply make hunting with hounds, even trail hunting, totally illegal once and for all.
Unfortunately, the road to politics is paved with good intentions and unintentionally the trail layers club landed in the thick of it. For reasons still unknown the principal players, moved to frustrate and silence all other voices and offers of help. A reasonable observer would be forgiven for believing that the trail layers club, rather than the perpetrators of this mess, were the problem!
The day the site went live, calls were received from no fewer than three of the most senior MFHA officers. These calls culminating in a request that the entire site was taken down pending a committee investigation and subsequent decision some two weeks later.
After four weeks with no further communication, whilst being continuously bombarded with letters of encouragement and offers of donations from people eager to support a fresh approach celebrating our way of life, notification was sent to the hunting office that the site would be reinstated and asking them to sign off on a nothing more than a simple link to their website- a link that envisages and promotes a positive future for hunting with hounds.
Finally, finally, the closest thing to support or even receiving their blessing arrived. A page of text for us to include on the site. Unfortunately, however, that was the last helpful gesture we received. For example, we wrote to a master featured in the wonderful video on the Countryside Alliance website to ask his permission to showcase this video on our new website trail-layers.org. How could he possibly object?
It is impossible not to acknowledge the irony of having to ask his permission to use a video promoting trail laying on a website specifically designed to create positive messaging about Trail hunting. The individual’s own hunt has become a regular fixture on the ITV News for both allegations of animal cruelty and illegal foxhunting over the last two seasons (along with the one he mentors). Depressingly, but not surprisingly, the answer, copied into the Hunting Office, of course, came back as ‘NO!’.
At the present time, COVID has put hunting largely out of action and allowed things to quieten down, hopefully for long enough for MPs to allow us to put the case for our amazing lifestyle, hunting with hounds has always adapted to fundamental changes, e.g. railways, wire, motorways and increasing urbanization, but we need to provide a route map to enable the National Trust, the Forestry Commission and the other Parks and landowners to reconsider their decisions to ban trail hunting from their land. If those that ‘govern’ the direction of hunting refuse to countenance change then it’s hard to see all of this land returning to us, if any. Whatever happens, inactivity on our part is not, and in fact never was, a viable option if we want to run hounds over it in the future. We all need to start making lots of noise about Trail-hunting and what it means to our communities – and surely the Hunting Office at the very least, should be seen to be helping and encouraging those people who are willing to dedicate their time and resources to making this happen.
NB www.trail-layers.org is chaired by Ivan Massow MFH and their Patron is The Countess of Denbigh & Desmond
Image of the Border Beagles courtesy Daryl Owen 2020''
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
I can tell you that the Warwickshire hunt do hunt foxes, they also trespass on land they have no right to be on. For example a railway line last year which actually held up trains. They were fined for this.
Im not saying sabs are perfect and without blame but what happens if no sabs or monitors?
They just continue to hunt foxes.
They have had hounds in Churchyards etc too.
Im not saying sabs are perfect and without blame but what happens if no sabs or monitors?
They just continue to hunt foxes.
They have had hounds in Churchyards etc too.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Palo, thank you for publishing the link to:-
https://www.bailyshuntingdirectory....6i-VRhdzpKRLsDpFkboQw4GRB-9nO1nscF3bTRcO0KxaM
It confirms what we have said before. Those of you who wish to carry on to celebrate and practise legal trail hunting will get no support from The Hunting Office. The trail layers club was formed by people with the right ethos, but I cannot see it flourishing within the confines of The Hunting Office (as is clear from the communications detailed in the link). It will need to fly solo.
It‘s a very promising start, though. This is the way forward for you legal trail hunters if you wish to continue.
https://www.bailyshuntingdirectory....6i-VRhdzpKRLsDpFkboQw4GRB-9nO1nscF3bTRcO0KxaM
It confirms what we have said before. Those of you who wish to carry on to celebrate and practise legal trail hunting will get no support from The Hunting Office. The trail layers club was formed by people with the right ethos, but I cannot see it flourishing within the confines of The Hunting Office (as is clear from the communications detailed in the link). It will need to fly solo.
It‘s a very promising start, though. This is the way forward for you legal trail hunters if you wish to continue.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
I dont think anyone is against TRAIL HUNTING, the problem is that a lot (most?) hunts are still hunting foxes.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
That's what I was talking about! A professional campaign to distance trail hunting from illegal hunting.
It's a great start but now it needs to break itself off from any link to the campaign to return to fox hunting, amalgamate with the drag packs, and fight for the sport in its own right, not as a holding phase before repealing the law.
BeckyFlowers
Well-Known Member
I really hope the Trail Layers organisation grows and that this becomes the hunting norm. They sound like a very forward-thinking group ??
Kipper's Dick
Well-Known Member
One problem is going to be getting pro-foxhunting landowners to admit defeat and allow trail-hunters on their land. Many are living in hope that the Hunting Act will be repealed in their favour.
There has to be some sort of inducement for all farmers/landowners. Trail-hunting simply cannot take place without their support. The article mentions the joy of days with friends in wonderful countryside watching skilled hounds. Not sure that's enough for the farmers watching 'their' bit of countryside being trashed. It was mentioned upthread the damage a group of riders can do to crops, pasture, hedges, etc. Why on earth should farmers allow this sort of damage to their livelihood? Many might see it as just some sort of jolly, serving no useful purpose. Hopefully the Trail-laying Club would still offer a fallen stock service. I really wish this Club well, but have a feeling it's not going to be that straightforward.
There has to be some sort of inducement for all farmers/landowners. Trail-hunting simply cannot take place without their support. The article mentions the joy of days with friends in wonderful countryside watching skilled hounds. Not sure that's enough for the farmers watching 'their' bit of countryside being trashed. It was mentioned upthread the damage a group of riders can do to crops, pasture, hedges, etc. Why on earth should farmers allow this sort of damage to their livelihood? Many might see it as just some sort of jolly, serving no useful purpose. Hopefully the Trail-laying Club would still offer a fallen stock service. I really wish this Club well, but have a feeling it's not going to be that straightforward.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I always thought that re. what is in it for farmers yet many trail only hunts are still welcomed, even when no fallen stock service is available. I guess it would be helpful for them to find out why that is and replicate it.
Kipper's Dick
Well-Known Member
In many cases it might simply be a case of goodwill towards the hunt. Their fathers used to support them, their grandfathers. It might be risky relying on that goodwill going forward. Plus farming itself has changed in many ways, far more intensive in some areas, with more of an emphasis on arable. The old incentive (when many farms were stock farms) to keep the fox at bay, has gone. I see no reason why a fallen stock service should not still be offered, though. This is appreciated by many farmers.
Last edited:
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-55534567
"An alpaca breeder has claimed hounds from a nearby hunt have left her animals "traumatised".
Teri White, from Bingfield Alpacas, said that hounds from the Tynedale Hunt had got on to her land, near Hexham, Northumberland, on three occasions.
She said they chased newly-weaned alpacas into a corner, terrifying them.
The hunt said a few hounds did "drift" on to the land but did not chase or harm any animals, and it apologised unreservedly for any distress caused.
Ms White described the most recent occasion, just before Christmas, as "horrendous".
She said: "Newly-weaned animals were chased into a corner and we had to sit with them until midnight to calm them down.
"We have pregnant females who could still easily abort as a result of the stress of being chased.
"It's just not right, we are literally staying here all day if we know they are hunting just to try and protect them, to keep them off the land."
So land owners have to live in fear of their animals being injured or killed, because hunts don't have a basic level of control over their hounds. So even if the above was completely legal and no foxes were involved, the lives of beloved animals were still being put at risk. Individuals still felt unsafe on their own property.
Dozens of stories like this come out every year. Pet cats killed, livestock attacked, farmer's crops ruined. Isn't hacking with friends enough for people to have a good time on horseback in the countryside?
"An alpaca breeder has claimed hounds from a nearby hunt have left her animals "traumatised".
Teri White, from Bingfield Alpacas, said that hounds from the Tynedale Hunt had got on to her land, near Hexham, Northumberland, on three occasions.
She said they chased newly-weaned alpacas into a corner, terrifying them.
The hunt said a few hounds did "drift" on to the land but did not chase or harm any animals, and it apologised unreservedly for any distress caused.
Ms White described the most recent occasion, just before Christmas, as "horrendous".
She said: "Newly-weaned animals were chased into a corner and we had to sit with them until midnight to calm them down.
"We have pregnant females who could still easily abort as a result of the stress of being chased.
"It's just not right, we are literally staying here all day if we know they are hunting just to try and protect them, to keep them off the land."
So land owners have to live in fear of their animals being injured or killed, because hunts don't have a basic level of control over their hounds. So even if the above was completely legal and no foxes were involved, the lives of beloved animals were still being put at risk. Individuals still felt unsafe on their own property.
Dozens of stories like this come out every year. Pet cats killed, livestock attacked, farmer's crops ruined. Isn't hacking with friends enough for people to have a good time on horseback in the countryside?
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
The Trail Layers Club really are going to be up against it if they try and stay within the current regulatory body.
Finally, finally, the closest thing to support or even receiving their (The Hunting Office) blessing arrived. A page of text for us to include on the (Trail Layers Club) site. Unfortunately, however, that was the last helpful gesture we received.
ABOUT REGULATION
The Hunting Office
The Trail Layers Club is not a regulatory body. The six Hunting Associations represent all registered packs of hounds and are the Governing Bodies for all hunting with hounds in the UK.
The Hunting Office is the central organisation which runs the administrative, advisory and supervisory functions of those Hunting Associations; it communicates with all hunts, members and external bodies to set and maintain high standards, and promote and protect the interests of hunting across the UK. Click Here to visit the Hunting Office Website
It is hardly a glowing endorsement or heartfelt welcome to the embryonic new group. More a ‘Move along please, this is a bunch of amateurs‘ put down.
Finally, finally, the closest thing to support or even receiving their (The Hunting Office) blessing arrived. A page of text for us to include on the (Trail Layers Club) site. Unfortunately, however, that was the last helpful gesture we received.
ABOUT REGULATION
The Hunting Office
The Trail Layers Club is not a regulatory body. The six Hunting Associations represent all registered packs of hounds and are the Governing Bodies for all hunting with hounds in the UK.
The Hunting Office is the central organisation which runs the administrative, advisory and supervisory functions of those Hunting Associations; it communicates with all hunts, members and external bodies to set and maintain high standards, and promote and protect the interests of hunting across the UK. Click Here to visit the Hunting Office Website
It is hardly a glowing endorsement or heartfelt welcome to the embryonic new group
. More a ‘Move along please, this is a bunch of amateurs‘ put down.Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Yeah, when I was a student, I did research for my dissertation in the sort of environment that @ester describes. The research was actually part of a project aimed at improving animal welfare, but that's another story. We were told never to react to any protestors and never to interact with them, and I have to say I never saw anyone do so- including students who were not professionals and in most cases were in their very early 20s.
I don't care what the provocation was, the person on the film's remarks about Covid were unacceptable, and I assume he means what he says.
I'm afraid, following the webinars, I am no longer willing to give any trail hunts the benefit of the doubt on anything. The assumption they are definitely pursuing a legal activity is gone, in my opinion.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Actually, I would say in my local area, there is a specific focus from sabs/monitors on a couple of hunts that are rumoured to still hunt fox, and they leave another couple of hunts who everyone seems to think follow the law alone.
I say rumoured, because it has never been proven in a court of law, but I have seen photos taken by sabs of one hunt that looked an awful lot like they were hunting fox (i.e. a fox was being chased by hounds).
I would suggest the anger of the hunts is better directed at those hunts who bring hunting into disrepute by breaking the law.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Where we are, landowners are friendly and welcoming because for them, hunting is a part of their culture as a whole. In remote areas farmers are delighted to see visitors who are often old friends. Ours is a pretty traditional hunt though in that sense; most of the local farms have had the same family for years
Quite a lot of people also express the view that they welcome the hunt in preference to other groups of people that they find more difficult and don't really relate to; walkers with dogs, mountain bikers etc who they fear have little understanding of the countryside or where the real footpath is etc etc. My experience suggests that some farmers prefer the hunt to unknown dog walkers, countryside visitors and those that are likely to cause trouble with sheep/cattle/rights of way. I do think that in some cases there is a sense, here at least, where the divisions in society generally are kind of on a plate and some people would rather take their 'side' with the hunting community that represents tradition, conservatism (non-political) and familiarity than the community that is on 'the other side' (whatever that is). Farmers certainly fear and distrust 'animal rights people'; often for no other reason than they see them as disruptive trouble makers that don't understand animal husbandry. The militant vegan is probably the most terrifying urban legend for farming folk...!! At least with the hunt, they know what is likely to happen and when (yes, we do clear our country properly and ensure that landowners both know we are in the area and have given permission for trail laying). I do know too that if farmers think that sabs might pitch up, they are determined to have the hunt and not be intimidated. That is a response that anti-hunt protestors have created and even more than anything a hunt may do, those farmers will not tolerate the sense of entitlement to trespass that comes with the sabs.
Of course, not all our farmers welcome the hunt - most often because of ancient family or neigbhour disputes though sometimes they will have fallen out with a member of the hunting community and then the whole lot of us are unwelcome. You cannot always avoid that kind of thing.
I know too, that as soon as I assert this, several people will leap up to prove that I am utterly wrong, ignorant, naive, clueless etc but really I have NEVER seen a local hunt damaging ground in the way that the anti-hunt lobby maintain they do. Literally never. I have seen the odd visitor make a complete balls up of a fence and not tell us (we soon get it in the ear though and pitch up to make repairs). I have seen visitors/newcomers being continually reminded to WALK on the headland too. Perhaps in the most fashionable, smart/well subscribed hunts there are lots of people who behave badly but our neighbours are quite 'smart' and they certainly DON'T tolerate damage to their friends' and neighbours' property. What DOES happen is that the landowner will give permission for the hunt to visit and their tenant may not be so pleased but that isn't something that is the hunt's responsibility to untangle.
I guess, in short, farmers see and feel comfortable with the 'cultural' value of hunting - similar I guess to the way that urbanites are happy enough with various kinds of social disturbance as it is part of living in an urban environment. It may not be perfect but it is understood and assimilated into a way of life that suits.
I expect huge contradictions to what I have posted here; it is clearly not all idyllic at all and of course things go wrong but at the same time, in spite of the headlines, there are many, many hunts that are thriving, that are not on the wrong end of the news, that don't attract the attention of extremists and that continue to have country to hunt in spite of increasing urbanisation and lack of empathy and experience of traditional rural cultures. Young people and children regularly join hunts - it still seems entirely valid to them and the number of people wanting to try trail hunting has increased post-ban. Many, many top equestrian competitors, including Carl Hester support trail hunting - presumably because they recognise it's place and value in different ways to our culture. Not everyone wants to see society 'move on', 'develop', become more global, more IT centred etc and there are also many people who are and do all that and actually want to take time to step away from it; hunting is an anti-dote to some modern problems! We are not all the same and as people don't see 'what is in it' for the farmers, so that suggests that farming folk/landowners have literally no other consideration for their lifestyle than the profit and loss aspect of it. I think that is pretty ignorant and unimaginative to be honest. Do most of us only do things that 'have something in it' for ourselves? Really?
Kipper's Dick
Well-Known Member
I take it that the 'ignorant and unimaginative' might be directed at me, Palo1? I'm from a farming family and know many farmers. My family still farm. They have a profit to make and many I know do not share your golden view of trail hunts and their followers. In fact many of them are royally p*ssed off with the cavalier way that some riders treat crops and pasture land and have taken to banning them completely. Venture on to the Farmers Forum and you'll not find many who seem to have any patience with hunts/trail hunts of any description. Going onto land where they have not been invited, hounds harassing stock, damage to fencing, trashing crops, are just a few of their complaints. I would also suggest that insulting people who don't totally see your rosy view of things is hardly the best, or polite, way forward.