Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Exasperated]

As expected, there has been much hate for the hunts on social media following news stories about yesterday's meets.
According to some people, all hunts (trail, drag, bloodhounds) are killing foxes every time they go out. There's little point in arguing as it just turns into a 'class' thing (hilarious that I am being called a 'stuck up toff' - and that's one of the nicer insults - given that I'm from a north Manchester council estate & didn't even own a horse until I was in my 40s). And bloodhounds - well, apparently the clue is in the name! it seems that they rip things up to consume the blood. Looks like the runners with the hunt I rode with had a lucky escape.


Lots of talk about the Labour party's proposed ban on 'trail hunting'. Does anyone here know if it does indeed just cover trail hunting (that's all it says in the manifesto) or will it extend to drag hunting & clean boot? I can see that there's some confusion here amongst the public. I read that the proposed ban covers hunts following an 'animal based scent'...I can see what they're getting at, but how on earth could it be enforced without widespread checking? And wouldn't existing trail hunts who are using animal based scent just say that they have moved to artificial scent?

Really? killing foxes every time they go out??
Well, the packs must be doing a far better job today than ever was the case, pre-Ban:
One of the indisputable arguments against fox hunting was its relative inefficiency at reducing predators, whilst simultaneously damaging farmland. Many, many days were entirely bloodless.
Clean boot bloodhounding used to be the high octane alternative, very fast with few checks, but having witnessed them off-piste into a field of ewes, and pull one apart before hunt servants could whip them off - not necessarily ‘bloodless’, either.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Another item on The beeb news page about hunting, fresh up today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c7915r5n2jzo

The writer does seem to be rather muddled about the differences between the various forms of hunting - just like most of the rest of the general public.

The New Forest Hunt converted from foxhounds to bloodhounds two years ago and they now hunt "the clean boot", meaning they hunt the natural scent of human runners.

Will Day, joint hunt master with the New Forest Bloodhounds, said as it only hunts "the clean boot" it would be exempt from the ban.

"The bloodhounds are specifically bred for hunting human quarry only, they don't have accidents with other animals, they don't chase foxes, only the clean boot, so we believe we will be outside of the ban and able to continue," he told the BBC.

So far, so good, but followed in the same article by:-

Traditional hunts have now been replaced with trail hunting, which involves laying a trail using a rag soaked in animal scent, known as a "clean boot".

Way to go…

 

[ecologist785]

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Hunting foxes aside, is it really a good idea to canter down a steep hill on tarmac?

Besides the risk of the horse slipping, damaging its legs and causing a accident what about any other traffic?
OH WAIT!!!
Guess the sabs did it though, must be their fault! Or maybe the photo was not taken at the right time? Or maybe its not a steep hill? Or maybe the horse is only walking! Maybe the road is really made of grass!
Have I missed anything
Other excuses..... I must be a sab.... Im not
Im a townie I dont understand.... Im not and I do!

Seriously though Do hunt staff actually care about horses and hounds at all? Would you canter downhill on a road?

They love calling people who are against some of things they do as townies, I am like sir I have lived here my whole life

 

[ecologist785]

Another item on The beeb news page about hunting, fresh up today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c7915r5n2jzo

The writer does seem to be rather muddled about the differences between the various forms of hunting - just like most of the rest of the general public.

The New Forest Hunt converted from foxhounds to bloodhounds two years ago and they now hunt "the clean boot", meaning they hunt the natural scent of human runners.

Will Day, joint hunt master with the New Forest Bloodhounds, said as it only hunts "the clean boot" it would be exempt from the ban.

"The bloodhounds are specifically bred for hunting human quarry only, they don't have accidents with other animals, they don't chase foxes, only the clean boot, so we believe we will be outside of the ban and able to continue," he told the BBC.

So far, so good, but followed in the same article by:-

Traditional hunts have now been replaced with trail hunting, which involves laying a trail using a rag soaked in animal scent, known as a "clean boot".

Way to go…

Yeah who ever wrote that is wrong

 

[ecologist785]

I've had a sab jump out at me from behind a hedge and run after me up a road. I wasn't dressed for hunting, don't hunt and wasn't together with any of the hunt staff or followers although they were in the area. Just being on a horse seemed to give them grounds to chase me. I certainly didn't hang around proceeding at a walk while a strange bloke wearing a balaclava tried to approach me shouting abuse.

I am not a sab but I hope that doesn't happen to me, I hope my pink glittery hat would be a deterrent. I do however empathise with them in a way, they are brutally attacked and there have been two deaths so I can imagine they are equally as terrified

 

[ecologist785]

Yes, but I was pointing out that the greatest damage done, and the greatest danger comes not from hounds but from domestic dogs. That is relevant I think because as someone who supports hound sports and working dogs more generally, I see the hypocrisy in sanctioning those things more harshly than the domestic pets that cause greater trouble.

I agree with you, free roam cats should be banned it's also outdated, the Scottish wild cat is fundamentally extinct in the wild due to hybridisation with domestic cats and habitat loss

 

[ecologist785]

The blood hounds etc need to pour some money into good publicity. Educate people what they do, include lots of goofy, friendly looking blood hounds and cute kids on scruffy ponies, less of the blood horse jumping huge hedges. Really push that they are "hunting" the clean boot. Maybe some high profile interviews with the runners? I dunno, I'm not a marketing guru, but they do need to do something. And while doing it the most important thing is that they distance themselves as far away as they possibly can from trail hunting and strongly and publicly condemn all the illegal and immoral stuff that has been going on.

I was actually a social media manager for years and I am now a scientist however, I think what needs to happen is the people who are doing it legally and not hunting foxes need to call out those who are doing it illegally and stand thier ground, even people who are doing everything above board but know of people who aren't won't talk and I think that gives and overall shady feeling to the general public, so it's almost easy to assume everyone's breaking the law, I think if some legal hunters cooperated and stood alongside the sabs something might actually be done and you might be able to rebrand it

 

[L&M]

I was actually a social media manager for years and I am now a scientist however, I think what needs to happen is the people who are doing it legally and not hunting foxes need to call out those who are doing it illegally and stand thier ground, even people who are doing everything above board but know of people who aren't won't talk and I think that gives and overall shady feeling to the general public, so it's almost easy to assume everyone's breaking the law, I think if some legal hunters cooperated and stood alongside the sabs something might actually be done and you might be able to rebrand it

I couldn't agree more - my partner and I have recently hung up our hunting boots as so fed up of our local packs not abiding by the law, or just doing it on public occasions too look like they are.

I was appalled at the CA comments with regards to the protests in London on Boxing Day - yet again they are still maintaining that people are hunting within the law, following trails and that hunting folk are the ones being persecuted!!!

It is nothing but bare faced lies, and how the likes of Tim Bonner sleep at night I do not know.

We have not hunted with a pack within the last few seasons that is trail hunting properly and no longer want to be a part of it - I am so tempted to whistle blow but don't have evidence that would stand up in court, but after years of avoiding the antis/monitors, am considering joining them.

We begged our local pack to trail hunt, went to meetings and agm's and said our piece but to no avail. The only option was left to walk.......

It makes me so angry, and ashamed that I have been party to the lies.

 

[PurpleSpots]

I've not watched it all, but I'm sharing this as it is likely of relevant interest to the thread content.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=913153837463179

 

[Dave's Mam]

I've not watched it all, but I'm sharing this as it is likely of relevant interest to the thread content.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=913153837463179

Not watched as I'm just going to bed, but Chris Packham gets my goat. Horses are ruminants & Koniks are better than Exmoors.

 

[PurpleSpots]

Not watched as I'm just going to bed, but Chris Packham gets my goat. Horses are ruminants & Koniks are better than Exmoors.

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any live streams following illegal hunting activity made by other people available to share right now...

 

[Nancykitt]

I saw some of the Chris Packham updates on Twitter (X) yesterday. My first thought was that the hunt would be crazy to do anything illegal with a high-profile bunch around them - so they were pretty unlikely to get the 'evidence' they were looking for.
At one point Packham said that there was a quad with terriers so it was obvious that illegal foxhunting was going on. But as we know, using two terriers to flush to guns is not illegal. Some of the comments showed just how much confusion there is, with people describing foxes as 'a protected species'. The general (incorrect) view was that killing a fox, by any means, is breaking the law.

IMO the root of the problem is that a law was introduced years ago with seemingly no thought given to how that law would be enforced.
So it's left to antis and sabs to do what they do. I've said in the past, I don't have any objection to hunt monitors and I've been out on hunts that have been monitored - no problem at all as we were not breaking the law. But I've seen some awful behaviour from sabs and I'm slightly uncomfortable that Packham & co were making them out to be paragons of virtue who were policing hunting.
We all know that there has been some awful behaviour from those involved with hunts, too - but high-profile people like Packham should be more responsible.

I've not really got any skin in the game as I've moved to an area where there is no hunting at all, but the whole thing annoys me immensely. Brian May came out in support of hunting with bloodhounds, which was really good, but some of the comments from people were all about how they objected to people on horses 'dressing up' - as if the outfits were the problem. I suppose to some people they are, as they associate it all with the ruling class etc etc.

I actually think that banning trail hunting (with an animal-based scent) will not solve the problem. The law-breaking hunts will find a way round it. And we will still be stuck with the problem of a law that isn't policed/enforced for 99% of the time.

 

[palo1]

I saw some of the Chris Packham updates on Twitter (X) yesterday. My first thought was that the hunt would be crazy to do anything illegal with a high-profile bunch around them - so they were pretty unlikely to get the 'evidence' they were looking for.
At one point Packham said that there was a quad with terriers so it was obvious that illegal foxhunting was going on. But as we know, using two terriers to flush to guns is not illegal. Some of the comments showed just how much confusion there is, with people describing foxes as 'a protected species'. The general (incorrect) view was that killing a fox, by any means, is breaking the law.

IMO the root of the problem is that a law was introduced years ago with seemingly no thought given to how that law would be enforced.
So it's left to antis and sabs to do what they do. I've said in the past, I don't have any objection to hunt monitors and I've been out on hunts that have been monitored - no problem at all as we were not breaking the law. But I've seen some awful behaviour from sabs and I'm slightly uncomfortable that Packham & co were making them out to be paragons of virtue who were policing hunting.
We all know that there has been some awful behaviour from those involved with hunts, too - but high-profile people like Packham should be more responsible.

I've not really got any skin in the game as I've moved to an area where there is no hunting at all, but the whole thing annoys me immensely. Brian May came out in support of hunting with bloodhounds, which was really good, but some of the comments from people were all about how they objected to people on horses 'dressing up' - as if the outfits were the problem. I suppose to some people they are, as they associate it all with the ruling class etc etc.

I actually think that banning trail hunting (with an animal-based scent) will not solve the problem. The law-breaking hunts will find a way round it. And we will still be stuck with the problem of a law that isn't policed/enforced for 99% of the time.

Chris and Megan live were just awful, pointless and so ill informed that their piece makes them both look ignorant and frankly stupid. It is madly irresponsible of Packham to actively promote that group of sabs too. He should be ashamed of himself, but won't be. What other apparantly knowledgeable (I don't think he is, frankly) and 'authoritative' person would rely on a group of vigilantes for 'stats' - which have been utterly dissed by police, wildlife trusts and other stakeholders, and perspectives of the same and present those as 'facts'? Just irresponsible and ridiculous....

 

[PurpleSpots]

with people describing foxes as 'a protected species'.

I think they were referring to badgers as a 'protected species' though?

It's hard to see how the hunt weren't actively trying to hunt when you put all the aspects together. At least they showed that I think?

 

[Nancykitt]

I think they were referring to badgers as a 'protected species' though?

It's hard to see how the hunt weren't actively trying to hunt when you put all the aspects together. At least they showed that I think?

Sorry, I should have said - the 'protected species' references was a comment made on one of Packhams' social media posts...apparently the person in question was worried that foxes will become extinct in the UK and several people agreed. Interestingly, another post on the thread was from someone living in an urban area saying that foxes were a major nuisance and pest control are constantly being called out to trap and 'dispatch' them. Lots of confusion about whether or not it was illegal to actually kill a fox, by any means.

Chris and Megan live were just awful, pointless and so ill informed that their piece makes them both look ignorant and frankly stupid. It is madly irresponsible of Packham to actively promote that group of sabs too. He should be ashamed of himself, but won't be. What other apparantly knowledgeable (I don't think he is, frankly) and 'authoritative' person would rely on a group of vigilantes for 'stats' - which have been utterly dissed by police, wildlife trusts and other stakeholders, and perspectives of the same and present those as 'facts'? Just irresponsible and ridiculous....

On one of the FB posts people were saying that they were really grateful to Chris Packham and the wonderful sabs and they had made donations to them.
Obviously people are at liberty to do what they want with their cash but I'm disappointed with the whole exercise.
Raptor persecution is a major problem on grouse shooting estates and some birds of prey are down to really small numbers now. He could be highlighting all sorts of wildlife crime (and there are plenty of worthy causes) - but chose to jump on this because it's an easy way for him to get adulation.
Just to clarify - I do not support illegal hunting in any way, shape or form and the attitude of some masters/huntsman/hunt staff makes me sick.
Equally, I don't support the action of some sabs who behave appallingly...and I most certainly don't support the promotion of sabs as 'guardians of our countryside' by people like Packham.

 

[paddy555]

IMO the root of the problem is that a law was introduced years ago with seemingly no thought given to how that law would be enforced.


I've not really got any skin in the game as I've moved to an area where there is no hunting at all, but the whole thing annoys me immensely. Brian May came out in support of hunting with bloodhounds, which was really good, but some of the comments from people were all about how they objected to people on horses 'dressing up' - as if the outfits were the problem. I suppose to some people they are, as they associate it all with the ruling class etc etc.

I haven't watched CP. I just can't bear him.
I agree the original law was very poorly drawn up.

IMO part of the problem is the "dressing up" . It is the arrogance of both the hunt staff and a fair number of the followers. The clothes seem to enable arrogance. I have lived in a hunting area for nearly 50 years and this arrogance is often overwhelming. . Dress them up in the clothes, put them on a horse and tell them they are part of the hunt or even worse one of the hunt staff and reality seems to go out of the window. I have seen this so many times over the years. They seem to lack respect for property, the damage they do, people's animals or how much they are holding up traffic etc. Whilst I have seen it so often I just think they are funny I can imagine that it would upset some people and give rise to feelings about the ruling class/snobs/toffs etc.

many people in our rual area dislike hunting. Many of the visitors who come here walking their dogs etc hate them with a vengeance. It is mandatory here that from 1 March dogs are kept on a fixed lead no more than 2m long. The reason is to protect ground nesting birds, lambs, foals etc. Those visitors cannot understand why their dogs should be leaded yet the dogs from the hunt can run wherever they want over the moorlad freely, shame about the ground nesting birds.

as for the sabs then about 20 years ago I got on well with many of them. They were pretty genuine people, possibly misguided, but friendly enough to us.
Then it all changed. I wouldn't want to go near the black balaclava brigade and I would be very unhappy meeting them out riding. I have no respect for anyone who cannot show their face. Protest if you want but at least have the guts to stand up and be counted.

The sabs are nasty to the hunt but the hunt are equally at fault. I remember watching 2 of the hunt on horses whipping a sab on the ground. They thought that no one could see them and they had chosen their spot for this obviously planned beating very carefully. I dislike them equally and just wish they would all go away and leave me in peace.

 

[Burnttoast]

He could be highlighting all sorts of wildlife crime (and there are plenty of worthy causes) - but chose to jump on this because it's an easy way for him to get adulation.

To be fair this is the first time I've noticed him engage with hunting in this way, but he's been active in drawing attention to wildlife crime of all sorts for years, particularly with Wild Justice, and it is mentioned relatively frequently I gather on his Watch programmes, where the context dictates.

 

[ester]

He’s been on hunting a while now

 

[Nancykitt]

He’s been on hunting a while now

Yes - I remember a TV show a few years ago where he was standing near his home (New Forest?) saying 'look at these wonderful surroundings, there are people on horses who want to destroy all of this.' (I assumed he was referring to the local hunt).
His Twitter feed does have some other wildlife/animal welfare-related stuff (including his recent resignation from the RSPCA I think), but it's heavily dominated by anti-hunting stuff and he is clearly well in with a whole load of sabs groups.
Personally I don't think anyone should be accepting 'stats' from the sabs without question. I have experience of this; went out with a drag hunt once (a pack that had always been drag and never live hunted), we had a great day. We knew that sabs were watching at one point, there wasn't really anything to see but later that day they posted on Facebook that we had 'murdered a beautiful vixen.' This led to some of us getting awful abuse and the people who'd hosted the hunt from their farm got death threats and had their property damaged.
This is why I'd rather have monitors. The monitors who came out with us (a different pack, trail hunting with artificial scent) were very civil and posted on their social media that we had hunted within the law.
Packham should certainly be ashamed of himself. He's made a lot more fuss about foxes than his recent fall-out with the RSPCA regarding poor conditions in their 'approved' abattoirs - something that really does need highlighting as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Burnttoast]

Packham should certainly be ashamed of himself. He's made a lot more fuss about foxes than his recent fall-out with the RSPCA regarding poor conditions in their 'approved' abattoirs - something that really does need highlighting as far as I'm concerned.

And yet his fall-out with the RSPCA made national papers, unlike the day-to-day contents of his X feed (which I'm not familiar with), so public awareness of that will have been increased thereby, as you wish.

 

[Nancykitt]

And yet his fall-out with the RSPCA made national papers, unlike the day-to-day contents of his X feed (which I'm not familiar with), so public awareness of that will have been increased thereby, as you wish.

This is a really interesting point. There was a discussion recently about breadth of coverage - national newspapers v. social media.
It seems that there are many people whose only contact with newspapers is, ironically, what they see on social media. I have to admit that I only knew about the RSPCA story because it was posted on X. I don't buy newspapers or subscribe to any online.

Although I would think it's really difficult to get info on numbers, there's no doubt that high-profile stuff on social media has a massive reach with the advantage that engagement is pretty much instantaneous. It also means that individuals & organisations have a high degree of control over what is posted, as opposed to publications where a third party (usually journalists/editors) are responsible for content. Same with TV.
Springwatch/Autumnwatch etc are extremely popular TV programmes that have helped to promote Chris Packham's career. But it's pretty clear that the BBC would not - understandably - put out material such as the series of sabbing videos put out on social media a few days ago. As palo1 says, it was pretty embarrassing to be honest. But in another respect it was successful in that the comments reflect huge support from thousands of people, many of whom have now donated to sabs associations.
My problem is that there is a very strong message that all sabs are the goodies and all dressed-up people on horses are the baddies. I don't think anyone here would agree with that.

One of the quotes from the feed on X that puzzled me a little: "61 different hunts had at least one report of badger sett interference made against them in the 2022–23 season ... badgers are a protected species in the uk , yet the wildlife interference continues as a result of illegal fox hunting ." I wasn't aware of the link here - is this true?

And a few people legitimately asked why badgers are culled if they're a protected species, but that's a whole other argument I suppose...)

 

[Tiddlypom]

One of the quotes from the feed on X that puzzled me a little: "61 different hunts had at least one report of badger sett interference made against them in the 2022–23 season ... badgers are a protected species in the uk , yet the wildlife interference continues as a result of illegal fox hunting ." I wasn't aware of the link here - is this true?

The illegal hunts block badger setts so that the foxes that they are hunting (and shouldn’t be) can’t go to ground. Prolongs the chase and easier to get a kill that way. So yes, there is a direct link to badger sett interference and illegal hunting.

Covert cameras set up by the antis have caught out a number of hunts doing this, and the footage has led to successful prosecutions.

Though the police report doesn’t mention it, this is a hunt terrierman, and it’s not the first similar offence for that hunt.

Loading…

www.westmercia.police.uk

Same hunt, different offences.

Hunter 'deliberately' let hounds chase fox - court https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-67797320

 

[Nancykitt]

The illegal hunts block badger setts so that the foxes that they are hunting (and shouldn’t be) can’t go to ground. Prolongs the chase and easier to get a kill that way. So yes, there is a direct link to badger sett interference and illegal hunting.

Ah right, thanks for this - OH guessed as much.

I don't doubt that this happens and it's disgraceful. (61 different hunts does sound like a lot though.)

 

[palo1]

Ah right, thanks for this - OH guessed as much.

I don't doubt that this happens and it's disgraceful. (61 different hunts does sound like a lot though.)

The 'stats' are nonsensical generally! There seems to have been a pretty negative response to C P hanging out with certain members of that group of sabs. I do wonder if all the fans actually know what kind of company CP keeps and supports...

 

[Sandstone1]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1776369003164923

Very interesting and I feel this is a long way from being over...