Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
Whos fault it was is not the whole issue is it really. The fact that a field of riders and a foot follower all just left a injured person on the ground says all you need to know really.
Hunting is in a spot of bother
- Thread starter Tiddlypom
- Start date
ester
Not slacking multitasking
you brought up the issue of fault in your first sentence, that's why I commented on it! If it wasn't relevant you could have just said how terrible it was they didn't stop. And it is terrible.
If apportioning blame/fault you need sufficient information, I was just pointing out there wasn't sufficient info, I didn't think that was ground breaking or argumentative just fact
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
Nit picking....
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
If you are in a car when passing horses you are asked to drive wide and slow. Max 10 mph and 2 metres space.
What's the advice for someone riding a horse when passing pedestrians?
What's the advice for someone riding a horse when passing pedestrians?
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
It would be unadvisable to stop. I know sabs have successfully promoted the we are the good guys, they are way more media savvy than any hunts, but they pull people out of saddles, undo bridles, grab reins and frighten horses. As it’s hard to immediately identify which are likely to do that I’m afraid I would assume the worse and keep well away.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Anyone other than a group of sabs I would slow to a walk.
nutjob
Well-Known Member
I've had a sab jump out at me from behind a hedge and run after me up a road. I wasn't dressed for hunting, don't hunt and wasn't together with any of the hunt staff or followers although they were in the area. Just being on a horse seemed to give them grounds to chase me. I certainly didn't hang around proceeding at a walk while a strange bloke wearing a balaclava tried to approach me shouting abuse.
Millionwords
Well-Known Member
This gets said all of the time, and yet, even with body cams, phone cameras in plentiful supply, you never see any of it....?
Surely they'd want people to see this aggressiveness by sabs in order that they understood there are two sides committing violent acts.
Maybe it's historic (like "getting paid" to sab) and it's happens infrequently enough it's never caught on film.... In which case, the sabs are more canny because the hunt aggression is filmed week in, week out.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Yes, maybe. I don’t hunt any more so maybe they are all nice people now.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
All lovely people.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
facts
emilylou
Well-Known Member
The video is a few seconds long which is insufficient really.. as the video ends and pans back to the sab you can see she is already getting up. If the rider knocked the sab down purposefully then that is extremely wrong, but we can't tell from the video posted.
And in regard to stopping- I agree with Clodagh. Sabs hate you if you are out hunting and stopping whilst mounted is putting your horse at risk, in the path of someone who hates you and is unpredictable, so I'd avoid too unless they were obviously seriously injured.
Sabs always get more video footage, that's literally what they are there to do. People who are out hunting are there to enjoy themselves and try to engage with sabs as little as possible and try to avoid them- screaming, shouting, horn blowing, nasty comments as you go past. I'm not about to get my phone out and film, just want to get away from them.
And in regard to stopping- I agree with Clodagh. Sabs hate you if you are out hunting and stopping whilst mounted is putting your horse at risk, in the path of someone who hates you and is unpredictable, so I'd avoid too unless they were obviously seriously injured.
Sabs always get more video footage, that's literally what they are there to do. People who are out hunting are there to enjoy themselves and try to engage with sabs as little as possible and try to avoid them- screaming, shouting, horn blowing, nasty comments as you go past. I'm not about to get my phone out and film, just want to get away from them.
Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
If you go to any county show you will find the local Foxhound pack doing a meet and greet. Lots of dogs in a small space (at least it is at Ardingly). with kids being invited in to mix with them. In my 'umble opinion, that does make rather a mockery of the belief that they can't be rehomed, albeit with caution (but no more than, say, Akitas).
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Clodagh
Well-Known Member
No one who said they were difficult to rehome said it’s because they were unfriendly.
Millionwords
Well-Known Member
And as the hunts always say, you can't tar the many with the actions of a few....and this was 20 years ago, you'd hope there would be a couple more "baddies" by now if they were all so awful....?
Nancykitt
Well-Known Member
Re. the clip - as has been mentioned, it's hard to say exactly what has happened given that there isn't any footage leading up to it. I am not saying that the rider or the sab is 'to blame', just that the piece of footage shown doesn't give all the answers. Sure, if I'd knocked someone over, I'd check that they were OK. Similarly, if I was filming and one of my friends got knocked down, I'd be inclined to get to them asap to make sure they were OK. But we just don't know the full story.
It could be that the rider maliciously rode much too close to the sab, which would be awful.
It could be that the sab intentionally placed themselves in a dangerous position, which would be stupid.
There's a few other possibilities but it's impossible to be certain from the video.
I have to say that I've come close to making contact with a 'pedestrian' when out hunting; we were riding, in walk, down a tree-lined track and there were people observing at the side of the track. We then started trotting and the horse behind me suddenly surged forward and tried to overtake, pushing my pony out to the edge of the track and dangerously close to one of the spectators.
We didn't make contact but it was close...personally, if I was on foot (as I have been on several occasions) I would have kept a safe distance from the track.
Serious question - why can't we just have monitors? I've been out hunting (legally!) with monitors present and I have to say that they behaved sensibly; they travelled round very efficiently, talked to the huntsman about the line at various stages and watched very closely, but didn't cause any major issues.
It could be that the rider maliciously rode much too close to the sab, which would be awful.
It could be that the sab intentionally placed themselves in a dangerous position, which would be stupid.
There's a few other possibilities but it's impossible to be certain from the video.
I have to say that I've come close to making contact with a 'pedestrian' when out hunting; we were riding, in walk, down a tree-lined track and there were people observing at the side of the track. We then started trotting and the horse behind me suddenly surged forward and tried to overtake, pushing my pony out to the edge of the track and dangerously close to one of the spectators.
We didn't make contact but it was close...personally, if I was on foot (as I have been on several occasions) I would have kept a safe distance from the track.
Serious question - why can't we just have monitors? I've been out hunting (legally!) with monitors present and I have to say that they behaved sensibly; they travelled round very efficiently, talked to the huntsman about the line at various stages and watched very closely, but didn't cause any major issues.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
A social media post taken out of context to prove a point? Surely not
palo1
Well-Known Member
Quite. I have witnessed and reported sab attack on a pony with a child rider. The police attended but no camera footage because at that moment in time we were far more concerned with dealing with the incident safely than filming it! Even sabs end up having to heavily 'edit' to get what they want people to see onto social media. The vast majority of hunters have no reason to keep a camera running whilst they are out. Some hunts do film trails but they are very unlikely to also be able to film sabs dodging around hedgerows and in the undergrowth at the same time. Last weekend a sab WAS filmed/photographed turning a fox onto trail hunting hounds. Bit of an own goal and I don't know what happened to the fox! So yeah, if you see a sab, safeguard your horse and others as first priority. For any other pedestrian always slow to a walk.
palo1
Well-Known Member
There have been a number of recent convictions, including for serious offences. Hunts are definitely a minority of people so these convictions against sabs often remain under the radar of national news - it's not surprising at all. Media has to cater for the mass, not the few.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
Not really as the facts are that a person was knocked down and no one stopped to help.facts
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
Did you see the video of the huntsman breaking the sabs car? I guess that was a mistake was it?
ester
Not slacking multitasking
damn we could have skipped all the discussion, let me know next time.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
Millionwords
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure if we're totting up recent convictions the hunts win hands down
I'm also sure, that if there were so many of these "under the radar" convictions, given the attention that hunting has had the last few years...they'd be more well known as its all part of the story.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Paul Allman, Cathy Scott, David Graham...but Jamal Eboe is currently not in trouble!I'm pretty sure if we're totting up recent convictions the hunts win hands down
I'm also sure, that if there were so many of these "under the radar" convictions, given the attention that hunting has had the last few years...they'd be more well known as its all part of the story.
Millionwords
Well-Known Member
The hunts are certainly still winning....
"There have been over 573 successful prosecutions under the Hunting Act from 2005 to 2021. A further 47 people have admitted an offence under the Act to the police since 2005 for which they received a formal police caution as an alternative to being prosecuted in court"
Millionwords
Well-Known Member
If we're naming names... Here's a year's worth... So hunts are most certainly more prolific, or better at getting caught.
July '22 - July '23
CONVICTIONS AND OUTCOMES
Name Date of
offence
Hunt Offence Outcome
- Louis Bridgman - Mendip Farmers Public order Anger management course
- Sam Colbourn 4 May Mendip Farmers Public order Conditional caution
- J W - Mendip Farmers Criminal damage Cautioned
- Angela Jarrom Hunt support
25 Oct 2022 Cottesmore Hit and run of sab ABH
- Shaun Parish 5 Mar 2022 Fitzwilliam Hunting a wild mammal Fined £421 (pled guilty)
- Jack Taylor Nov 2022 West Norfolk Criminal damage Pled guilty, outcome not yet known
- Chris Woodward - Wynnstay Public order Pled guilty, outcome not yet known
- Jamie Barnes & Ben Lloyd Davies
Wynnstay Interfering with badger setts Found guilty
Each fined £1000, £600 costs, £100 victim surcharge
- Duncan & Verity Drewett
Jan 2021 Vale of the White Horse Section 1 & 3 of The Hunting Act Case dismissed because key witness had a stroke
Magistrate refused CPS request for adjournment
Master Vale of the White Horse Section 1 of the Hunting Act Case dismissed because key witness had a stroke
Magistrate refused CPS request for adjournment
- Chris Mardles - Pytchley with Woodland Ran down a sab with his horse Section 18 GBH Pled guilty To be sentenced 21 July
- Stewart Masters - South Dorset Deliberately ran into a sab Guilty of careless driving/Failing to stop after an accident/ Failiung to report an accident
To be sentenced in July
- Georgina Price 5 Nov 2022 Royal Artillery Tried to run down 2 sabs with her horse Cautioned
- Mark Harris Spooners and West
Dartmoor
Caused a terrier to enter a protected sett Guilty under the Protection of Badgers Act
Fine of £1000 Victim surcharge £100
Crown costs of £900
- Tim Ingram March 2022 South Telcott Driving into sab vehicle when member of Mendip Hunt Fined £912
- Andrew Pope 21 Dec 2021 Weston & Banwell Attacking sabs and sab vehicle with a stick Cautioned
Letter of apology to injured sab
-Hartley Crouch - Pytchley Stole a hunt member’s pet sheep, killed it, skinned it and fed to hounds
Charged with theft 12 month conditional discharge To pay £775 costs £150 compensation Surcharge of £22
- Gavin Field - Warwickshire Stealing keys from sab vehicle, running off with them and
throwing over a hedge
Cautioned Section 4a Public Order Act
- Ollie Finnegan - Quorn Illegal foxhunting Fined £656
- Daniel Cherriman
29 Nov 2021 South Shropshire Hunting offences Cherriman pled guilty and was fined £600 for failing to call dogs
away from disturbed fox
- David Thomas Dwydryd Running a badger-baiting ring at the hunt kennels Pled guilty
Initially imprisoned for 24 weeks
Appealed – 13 weeks in prison suspended for 12 months
- Mark Pearson 13 Dec 2021 South Dorset Illegal fox hunting Found guilty
Fined £6000
£190 victim surcharge
£620 costs
Appealed – successful
- Member 5 March 2022 Seavington Released bagged fox Charged with Hunting Act offences
Charge of causing unnecessary suffering to an animal was withdrawn £180 fine
-Sam Jamie Mepham
Oct 2020 East Sussex & Romney
Marsh
Repeatedly drove tractor into sab vehicle Pled guilty 12 months community service
12 month driving ban
-John Bennett
Wright (supporter) & Ryan Sinclair
(supporter)
Lanarkshire & Renfrewshire
Attacking disabled sab 12 month supervision order
180 hours unpaid community work
£500 to victim
- Jack Harris Iveagh Hounds killed cat and bit a man £500 fine £1200 costs £15 offender’s levy
- Paul Martin 16 Oct 2021 Weston Assaulting sab with stick Fine
To pay compensation for breaking phone
- Member 26 Dec 2022 Cotley Assaulting protestor at Boxing Day meet Common assault
- Paul O’Shea East Essex Videoed stabbing a live fox with a garden fork Convicted under Section 4 Animal Welfare Act and Section 1
Hunting Act Suspended sentence of 18 weeks Community service
Apologies for poor formatting, it's difficult on a phone.
ETA these are just the ones I could be bothered to copy.... There's quite the list for 2024 too.
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palo1
Well-Known Member
Bravo for compiling this. Some horrible things done I agree although a number of these were overturned, appealed etc. I couldn't face trying to pull the same number of sab recorded incidents but they are often serious, unpleasant crimes too...
Dave's Mam
Well-Known Member
I think we need to step away from the finger pointing & who is better than who.
Hunting is illegal, sabs can be utterly dangerous, so can hunters.
The hunts who are Trail hunting need to behave themselves or all riding to hounds (note I did not say hunting) will be banned, and I don't have the balls to go bloodhounding, but holyshit, that looks like a great day! & bloodhounds don't kill.
Hunting is illegal, sabs can be utterly dangerous, so can hunters.
The hunts who are Trail hunting need to behave themselves or all riding to hounds (note I did not say hunting) will be banned, and I don't have the balls to go bloodhounding, but holyshit, that looks like a great day! & bloodhounds don't kill.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Agreed.