Hunting is in a spot of bother

[paddy555]

I think as you are clearly all fed up with my input on this subject I shouldn't bother and leave the group of you who want to continue your own narrative to do that. Hunts do publish meet cards but don't distribute them very well because of the guidance that they should do what they can to avoid monitors and anti's arriving on the doorstep of local communities and causing issues. It isn't great. Hunts do have work to do on that score. It is well known that anti-hunt groups are classed by the govt and police as potential extremists. That is probably a good enough reason.

but what about letting local non hunting people know? No one can get their cat/horse in if they don't know it is going to happen? or perhaps local people don't matter to them. To build good relations they need to consider their effect on the population where they are hunting. Not everyone agrees with trail or any other form of hunting. No good to someone whose cat gets eaten who will think "if only I had been told"
I am afraid "arrogance" and "s0d everyone else" comes to mind too often.

 

[Koweyka]

I think as you are clearly all fed up with my input on this subject I shouldn't bother and leave the group of you who want to continue your own narrative to do that. Hunts do publish meet cards but don't distribute them very well because of the guidance that they should do what they can to avoid monitors and anti's arriving on the doorstep of local communities and causing issues. It isn't great. Hunts do have work to do on that score. It is well known that anti-hunt groups are classed by the govt and police as potential extremists. That is probably a good enough reason.

The public and communities are very supportive of us, it’s the hunts they hate...hunts descend on communities whether they want them there or not, the hunts don’t advise them they are coming, people aren’t given the chance to prepare their animals, surely you have seen how distressed horses can get when the hunt is about, is that acceptable to you ? Would you want your horses put at risk of injury because of the deliberate actions of others ? Do you have a cat ? If so would you risk letting your cat out in front of the hounds ? Rabbits, would you let your pet rabbit for a play in the garden knowing the hunt are around and hounds don’t respect gardens when they chase a fox. You get to have that choice, but many families don’t and their animals suffer and die so you can get your kicks. It’s pure arrogance and a self serving attitude on huntings part and sod everyone else.

There is a huge sea of change now as communities are banding together, I am aware of communities buying land to stop the hunts terrorising the local wildlife, more and more farmers and landowners in my area have banned the hunt, I have seen locals banding together to keep hunts away from areas foxes live. Why do you think meet cards get leaked to the anti’s ? Because people don’t want hunting in their villages and their wildlife terrorised, their pets killed, their gardens invaded.

 

[Amirah]

Palo, I find it quite incredible how much research you've done and how deep you have dug to find any small piece of evidence, however tenuous, that convinces you that the cruelty you condoned and were party to before the ban, and maybe since, by an unfortunate (mumble mumble) "accident" is justified.

I think that deep in your heart there is a small place of disquiet and guilt regarding your beloved "hobby", otherwise why bother to go to such lengths?

 

[littleshetland]

Palo, you lost me pages ago on this thread....you wax lyrical about how special it is to watch hounds following the scent of fox urine, how special it is and how it enhances your whole experience of following the hounds, and really, no other scent is quite like it. How lovely for you and all your hunting chums....however, the fact that the chances of foxes getting ripped to shreds because the scent of fox is really quite like no other.... This just speaks volumes. It really is a case of 'sod everyone else' isn't it.

 

[Upthecreek]

but what about letting local non hunting people know? No one can get their cat/horse in if they don't know it is going to happen? or perhaps local people don't matter to them. To build good relations they need to consider their effect on the population where they are hunting. Not everyone agrees with trail or any other form of hunting. No good to someone whose cat gets eaten who will think "if only I had been told"
I am afraid "arrogance" and "s0d everyone else" comes to mind too often.

I completely agree. Whether people support hunting, don’t support it or don’t have an opinion either way, many hunts have done themselves no favours due to their arrogant attitude in not caring how what they do affects others. My experience is they don’t care about building good relations, they do what they want and say sorry afterwards if they have to. Because of that hunting is banned by many landowners where I live, but somehow they still often ‘accidentally’ run on to land where they have no permission to be.

 

[Kipper's Dick]

Well that’s your opinion but the truth is no I actually I don’t see the point. I could post a link about mink, how they became to be living in the wild 40 years before any activist release, I could say you single out one species to cull but ignore all the other species and reasoning that also play a part in declining species....so does that mean all these other species should also be culled, birds of prey eat water voles, should they be culled, cats aren’t native to the UK should they all be culled.....where does it end ? You are going to disagree with me and the circle begins again and detracts from the point of this thread.

I simply believe that there should always be an alternative consideration before culling/killing is undertaken and if culling or killing is necessary then it is done with dignity and consideration and you know what if that makes you think I am an “angry anti” then so be it. I have witnessed so much animal cruelty in my life that I abhor taking the life of anything be it insect, arachnids, feathered, scaled or furred creatures. I have spent over 40 years fighting for animal welfare, not just foxes but many species so I while I may not be a professor or have a string of letters after my name, write papers or theories, I have years of first hand experience on the ground on the suffering endured particularly by wild animals, but fox hunting is something I hate, something I won’t even pretend to understand ....

It would seem that you are as capable of picking and choosing your facts as much as you accuse Palo of doing the same. Are you seriously saying that mink numbers should not be controlled? There is no place for such a predatory introduced species in the UK, and I find your intimation that there is, quite bizarre. Such a 'head in the sand attitude' makes me very relieved that our wildlife conservation and management is in the hands of people who know what the threats are and take pro-active steps to deal with them.

American mink (the clue is in the name) is a non-indigenous species. They were brought to the UK to be bred in fur farms in the 1920s. It is accidental escapes from these farms that established the wild population, although there were deliberate releases as well. They are voracious killers that have played havoc with UK wildlife in the last 50 years.

They can devastate entire populations of ground-nesting birds, who have no defence against them. When mink established themselves on North Uist in the Outer Hebrides (one of my favourite places and I go there regularly), the population of ground-nesting birds was at great risk. A determined effort was made to eradicate them and now they have been eliminated from the island. If they had been unsuccessful in this, the ensuing carnage doesn't bear thinking about.

Water voles are in desperate decline, and the introduction of American Mink has been the greatest single driver of this. Humane mink control is an essential tool in water vole conservation within the National Species Action Plan. There were 9 million water voles in the UK, now down to 1 million and that is down to mink. If nothing is done to control mink, then there is the possibility that water voles will become extinct in England. They also hunt water birds and have been filmed, by the BBC, taking all 6 chicks from a kingfisher's nest. They have decimated populations of lapwings in Wales. A seven-year study in Poland of the nesting success of lapwing, redshank and black-tailed godwit showed that mink control led to increases in daily survival rates of nests and to the overall nesting success of all three species.

I truly agree with you that there should always be alternative consideration before culling/killing is undertaken, and I abhor cruelty and persecution of wildlife. But what alternative is there here?

 

[Koweyka]

It would seem that you are as capable of picking and choosing your facts as much as you accuse Palo of doing the same. Are you seriously saying that mink numbers should not be controlled? There is no place for such a predatory introduced species in the UK, and I find your intimation that there is, quite bizarre. Such a 'head in the sand attitude' makes me very relieved that our wildlife conservation and management is in the hands of people who know what the threats are and take pro-active steps to deal with them.

American mink (the clue is in the name) is a non-indigenous species. They were brought to the UK to be bred in fur farms in the 1920s. It is accidental escapes from these farms that established the wild population, although there were deliberate releases as well. They are voracious killers that have played havoc with UK wildlife in the last 50 years.

They can devastate entire populations of ground-nesting birds, who have no defence against them. When mink established themselves on North Uist in the Outer Hebrides (one of my favourite places and I go there regularly), the population of ground-nesting birds was at great risk. A determined effort was made to eradicate them and now they have been eliminated from the island. If they had been unsuccessful in this, the ensuing carnage doesn't bear thinking about.

Water voles are in desperate decline, and the introduction of American Mink has been the greatest single driver of this. Humane mink control is an essential tool in water vole conservation within the National Species Action Plan. There were 9 million water voles in the UK, now down to 1 million and that is down to mink. If nothing is done to control mink, then there is the possibility that water voles will become extinct in England. They also hunt water birds and have been filmed, by the BBC, taking all 6 chicks from a kingfisher's nest. They have decimated populations of lapwings in Wales. A seven-year study in Poland of the nesting success of lapwing, redshank and black-tailed godwit showed that mink control led to increases in daily survival rates of nests and to the overall nesting success of all three species.

I truly agree with you that there should always be alternative consideration before culling/killing is undertaken, and I abhor cruelty and persecution of wildlife. But what alternative is there here?

^Sigh^ you have clearly been to the Palo school of selectively choosing to misconstrue what I have said, but you have missed tropic cascade out and numerous links she will not be pleased about that......

Its not purely down to mink the decline of the water vole, they play a part though of course they do but I never said they shouldn’t be culled humanely as a last resort and I said there should be always be alternative consideration before killing/culling, so you agree with me on that point yet you are still arguing with me.

Clearly my think first, consider all options and act accordingly doesn’t sit right with you, if that’s a burying my head in the sand attitude I will take that and own it. I would rather be that than feet first kill everything type of person....

Please stay away from paper bags, it appears you could start a fight with yourself in one.

 

[paddy555]

I said there should be always be alternative consideration before killing/culling, so you agree with me on that point yet you are still arguing with me.

Clearly my think first, consider all options and act accordingly doesn’t sit right with you, if that’s a burying my head in the sand attitude I will take that and own it.

what options do you see for mink control? have you had experience of mink?

 

[Kipper's Dick]

^Sigh^ you have clearly been to the Palo school of selectively choosing to misconstrue what I have said, but you have missed tropic cascade out and numerous links she will not be pleased about that......

Its not purely down to mink the decline of the water vole, they play a part though of course they do but I never said they shouldn’t be culled humanely as a last resort and I said there should be always be alternative consideration before killing/culling, so you agree with me on that point yet you are still arguing with me.

Clearly my think first, consider all options and act accordingly doesn’t sit right with you, if that’s a burying my head in the sand attitude I will take that and own it. I would rather be that than feet first kill everything type of person....

Please stay away from paper bags, it appears you could start a fight with yourself in one.

I made it absolutely clear in my post, in the last paragraph, that there should always be alternative consideration before killing/culling wildlife. Which is making it clear that thinking first, considering options and acting accordingly certainly does 'sit right' with me. I also said that I abhor cruelty and persecution of wildlife. Couldn't make it clearer than that. But I feel that your post rather glossed over the facts concerning predation by mink, and its devastating consequences in the UK. I stand by what I said. The facts need to be known, even if that does mean I have to be on the lookout for a suitable paper bag to get into.

With regard to the decline in water vole populations, there is much information online about this. The biggest factor in the declining numbers of water voles is predation by mink.

 

[Koweyka]

I have never set any free if that’s what you are asking...

Personally I would like to see more otters reintroduced, hunting decimated their population, but observations show that where otters are present mink populations reduce as does their territory, though all these other species including foxes, otters, stoats, weasels, owls, herons, marsh harriers, pike, brown rats, Golden Eagles up in Scotland and cats also predate on water voles, is it wrong to totally single out one species and demonise them, but would you advocate killing all these other species ?

River management and water pollution needs to be addressed as well. It’s not just a kill all mink solution and water voles will make a comeback, as I tried to say there are more factors at play here. Beavers have been successfully reintroduced with safe habitats, could the same be done for water voles ? I don’t know what else you want me to say to be honest.

 

[Koweyka]

I made it absolutely clear in my post, in the last paragraph, that there should always be alternative consideration before killing/culling wildlife. Which is making it clear that thinking first, considering options and acting accordingly certainly does 'sit right' with me. I also said that I abhor cruelty and persecution of wildlife. Couldn't make it clearer than that. But I feel that your post rather glossed over the facts concerning predation by mink, and its devastating consequences in the UK. I stand by what I said. The facts need to be known, even if that does mean I have to be on the lookout for a suitable paper bag to get into.

With regard to the decline in water vole populations, there is much information online about this. The biggest factor in the declining numbers of water voles is predation by mink.

So basically we agree with each other ....other than you think I glossed over mink and I think you glossed over the other reasons for water vole decline .....I am off to build a sandcastle.

 

[paddy555]

So basically we agree with each other ....other than you think I glossed over mink and I think you glossed over the other reasons for water vole decline .....I am off to build a sandcastle.

you have glossed over mink control. What would you do? (other than never setting any free) how much experience do you have of mink damage?

 

[Koweyka]

you have glossed over mink control. What would you do? (other than never setting any free) how much experience do you have of mink damage?

Put your paper bag down for one second .... in a post above I explained what I would do if I was omnipotent, you will probably disagree just for the sake of it to be honest, you have also glossed over and made no proposals yourself about how you would deal with the habitat loss issue.

I have seen mink eat fishing stock and I have also seen remains of birds they have eaten, but mink didn’t ask for the hand they were dealt did they, they didn’t book a trip to UK they were brought here by humans for fur and it was those breeders that were finally called out for the disgusting treatment of them and the drop in demand for fur that resulted in the breeders setting them free.

Humans are ultimately responsible for the decline of all native species, but rather than admit that there is always something else to blame.

 

[Clodagh]

Thats a very good question and one I would like the answer to. If hunts have nothing to hide why do they worry so much about sabs and why is everything done in secret?

I can only answer for myself, as someone who stopped hunting a year or so after the ban. I freely admit I'm a wuss but sabs are terrifying! Masked up, bridle grabbing, aggressive, swearing. Grabbing horses and mocking small children. I certainly would not want them to come along to anything and for me to be harassed and intimidated.

 

[Clodagh]

Humans are ultimately responsible for the decline of all native species, but rather than admit that there is always something else to blame.

Culling humans is probably never going to take off.

This thread, though, has strayed far from it's origins, as they are wont to do. An anti and a pro are probably never going to agree on hunting. On the whole it has been amazingly civil, far more so than in RL!

 

[Koweyka]

I can only answer for myself, as someone who stopped hunting a year or so after the ban. I freely admit I'm a wuss but sabs are terrifying! Masked up, bridle grabbing, aggressive, swearing. Grabbing horses and mocking small children. I certainly would not want them to come along to anything and for me to be harassed and intimidated.

You see, I see it from the other side...I don’t mask up (apart from Covid) but I wish I had from the start. I monitor and I have had my lip split, teeth knocked out, fingers broke when terrier boys have tried to grab incriminating footage off a camera, a broken rib when I was thrown against a fence and ridden into frequently, property stolen and cameras damaged. I have had people shoot at my home, poison thrown in my garden for my animals to ingest, I ended up moving house and I now have a police marker on my address. My colleagues have woken up to dead foxes left on their cars, we have dead foxes and birds thrown at us from the hunt supporters. There is the incident where an elderly couple had their house and car smashed up and were terrorised, because they moved into a house a sab previously lived at.

Sabs have been killed and seriously injured (broken necks and backs) I honestly haven’t said this to argue, but there are two sides to this and we frequently come off worse for wear.

I don’t condone violence from either side, I hate it but I stand up for what I believe is the right thing to do even if it does get me some bruises along the way.

 

[littleshetland]

I can only answer for myself, as someone who stopped hunting a year or so after the ban. I freely admit I'm a wuss but sabs are terrifying! Masked up, bridle grabbing, aggressive, swearing. Grabbing horses and mocking small children. I certainly would not want them to come along to anything and for me to be harassed and intimidated.

2 winters ago a friend of mine , innocently standing next to some antis, who were quietly protesting on our village green where the hunt were meeting on boxing day. My friend, a resident of the village was, was doing nothing, just watching. she didn't know the antis who were next to her, but they were standing quietly, holding some placards. Apropo of nothing at all, a hunt follower marched up to them, started shouting and swearing and chucked a load of fox pi** all over her. This is just one incident that I have personal experience of, I know there are many others. 1/2 dozen of one...6 of the other?

 

[Amirah]

From what I have seen the antis seem to come off worse in any confrontation. The hunters have the high ground, have whips, ride people down... Seems to be more like six of one and several dozen of the other.

I only know personally of one confrontation between an irate landowner and the hunt and the landowner was hit when he ordered them off his land. Kept his teeth thank goodness, but the entitlement and arrogance is breathtaking. Their attitude is that they will go where they like, do what they want and if a cat is killed take it with them hoping to get away with it. I am so sorry that you have suffered such dreadful abuse Koweyka, absolutely disgusting. I am also sorry for the shock and upset your friend suffered littleshetland.

 

[paddy555]

, but mink didn’t ask for the hand they were dealt did they,

neither did the 25 hens in my hen house that they slaughtered. I would erradicate them.

 

[Clodagh]

All the things that have happened to Koweyka have happened to both huntsmen, gamekeepers and farmers who allow the hunt. Well, maybe not the dead foxes. Death threats and physical attacks are ongoing.
It’s wrong from either side.

 

[Clodagh]

neither did the 25 hens in my hen house that they slaughtered. I would erradicate them.

Same, we trap them here. I like weasels and stoats though.

 

[littleshetland]

neither did the 25 hens in my hen house that they slaughtered. I would erradicate them.

it's our responsibility to make sure our chickens are locked away safely in their houses...that means making them fox proof. If a fox gets in its our fault. Simple as that. edited to say, if its minks getting in...then make the chicken house mink proof.

 

[Clodagh]

it's our responsibility to make sure our chickens are locked away safely in their houses...that means making them fox proof. If a fox gets in its our fault. Simple as that.

I’m pretty sure Paddy was talking about mink.

 

[Clodagh]

edited to say, if its minks in...then make the chicken house mink proof.

And never let them out? May as well buy battery eggs from a supermarket. I shall continue to let mine into my garden and set traps if I see a mink.

 

[paddy555]

it's our responsibility to make sure our chickens are locked away safely in their houses...that means making them fox proof. If a fox gets in its our fault. Simple as that. edited to say, if its minks getting in...then make the chicken house mink proof.

thank you for the lecture. When you build your henhouse of granite you sort of think it will resist all invaders.

 

[littleshetland]

thank you for the lecture. When you build your henhouse of granite you sort of think it will resist all invaders.

I fully appreciate how tenacious and vicious the Mustelidae family can be, but they're mink..not Ninjas. Apologies for the rather abrupt tone, Its been a long day....sorry about your chickens.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Interesting post put up today on the Baily's Hunting Directory FB page. Particularly interesting as it was originally posted in 2019, but would seem to be even more relevant today, with a court case pending against such a major player.

https://www.facebook.com/231475331013/posts/10158739289581014

'If those who claim to be leaders of hunting organisations refuse to lead a proactive campaign of education and promotion of ALL of the positives of hunting and make the changes necessary to satisfy society’s norms in the 21stcentury, rather than years long past, then the sad truth is that there will come a time when there is nothing left for them to lead. It will be their own apathy or intransigence that will have been the most significant factor in doing the damage. Social media and the rise of the opinion of the ‘Zucker sucker’ isn’t the problem, it is nothing more than a mere symptom of a lack of willingness or ability to prepare and encourage hunting’s stakeholders and the wider community to adapt to a new environment.

Transformation is scary, but to be successful it requires as a minimum:- effective governance, sanctions, and leadership. Wouldn’t it be great if we had those in place sooner rather than later? The alternative is to just continue to click ‘like’ on pretty pictures of our friends on horses and cute hounds without any consideration for the wider battles, until the day those pictures stop appearing.'

 

[Koweyka]

Hunting may be putting yet another appearance on the ITV news, they just can’t help themselves .....hunting during lockdown is bad enough but a hunt “trespassing” into another hunts area to do it ....well that’s caused more knicker twisting than anything amongst the ”pro’s”

What utter contempt they have for the “normal” people, can’t say goodbye to a dying relative but the hunts believe they can ride around in red coats chasing foxes.

 

[palo1]

Hunting may be putting yet another appearance on the ITV news, they just can’t help themselves .....hunting during lockdown is bad enough but a hunt “trespassing” into another hunts area to do it ....well that’s caused more knicker twisting than anything amongst the ”pro’s”

What utter contempt they have for the “normal” people, can’t say goodbye to a dying relative but the hunts believe they can ride around in red coats chasing foxes.

I think it is very clear that this incident is being investigated, that it is nothing at all to do with 'formal' hunt management and that there is a wider sense of fury in the hunting community if this incident is as appears.

 

[rextherobber]

Have to say, where I live, the hunt has apparently been respecting lockdown, but with no shoots either, we are tripping over Pheasants, they are the most common bird at my bird table at the moment (I assume the keepers stopped feeding them when there was no need to keep them in an area in order to shoot them) Which would imply there's no need to control fox numbers, surely? Game birds are thriving...