Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Koweyka]

I am talking about they are excempt from being prosecuted from livestock worrying.

Hunt AGM’s what wonderful nuggets of information they have proven to be....

Forestry England isn’t really an issue as trail hunting has been banned from there, MOD will follow.

 

[Koweyka]

I just can't be drawn into agreeing that a picture of a dead fox is evidence of any particular death tbh and I don't think that just using a picture of a dead fox would be particularly 'convincing' but the picture I posted is perfectly clear and yes, unfortunate, particularly because it reflects a level of ignorance that makes a nonsense of the 'message' and the claim of anti-hunters and sabs that they 'know and understand' about hunting.

Spoken like a true hunter ...unfortunately this site isn’t allowing me to upload many photos....shame as I have some corkers.

Are you also talking about your mink photo ? Another deflection eh

 

[Koweyka]

Thought you may find this interesting, though I doubt it wouldnt want to rain on your glee when you first brought this case up...

https://thecitro.substack.com/p/cps...-aI4F005oJMdWM8xw6rJkwTI55wCuR_kEKTZVEzHIynQk

 

[palo1]

Thought you may find this interesting, though I doubt it wouldnt want to rain on your glee when you first brought this case up...

https://thecitro.substack.com/p/cps...-aI4F005oJMdWM8xw6rJkwTI55wCuR_kEKTZVEzHIynQk

I am not sure of your point here; are you blaming a hunt for something that Citro say the CPS have or haven't done? The take that the CA and Citro have are both absolutely predictable - no surprises there at all.

 

[palo1]

Spoken like a true hunter ...unfortunately this site isn’t allowing me to upload many photos....shame as I have some corkers.

Are you also talking about your mink photo ? Another deflection eh

Well the mink photo also demonstrates a real lack of knowledge about wildlife/conservation etc - I don't think it is deflection to point out that critics of hunting don't appear to know some fairly basic and very important facts. That is pertinent to pro-hunting people asserting that often critics of hunting activities don't know what they are really talking about and so their argument is weak.

 

[Koweyka]

Wow you come out with some real diatribe don’t you.

For pro hunt to perceive having compassion for animals and to wish them no harm as a weak argument shows just how out of touch with reality you are.

 

[palo1]

Wow you come out with some real diatribe don’t you.

For pro hunt to perceive having compassion for animals and to wish them no harm as a weak argument shows just how out of touch with reality you are.

Oh blimey - my comment was not remotely about compassion for animals but about demonstrating knowledge - real knowledge - of the issues that they are trying to convey. The two things are not at all the same but if you want to drive the discussion in that direction I would just ask how to you balance the 'harm' of say a mink attacking native fauna (including for the example the young gannet in the photo) with the 'compassion' deployed when those foreign mink were released into the countryside? How do you also balance the 'harm' of suggesting (by visual inference) that bloodhounds are part of illegal blood-sport with the 'compassion' and 'understanding' of repeatedly stating (not yourself individually, but that of the anti-hunt lobby) that you have no issue with 'safe', 'wildlife friendly' blood hounding?

How would you also balance the 'harm' that foxes and other predators cause to our rarest ground nesting birds (where predation is very much part of the picture of their decline, alongside significant habitat loss) with the 'compassion' of asserting that no animals should be controlled by lethal means where necessary (I am not talking about illegal hunting here at all).

For me, there is nothing compelling in what you say - you have presented no evidence to support your assertions and much of what you say is just angry and a somewhat lame form of virtue signalling - just words about wildlife, not facing facts at all.

 

[Koweyka]

Finally we have something in common....I find absolutely nothing compelling in what you say either.

I am not angry, I feel pity that you continue to demonise animals for your own justification.

 

[palo1]

Finally we have something in common....I find absolutely nothing compelling in what you say either.

I am not angry, I feel pity that you continue to demonise animals for your own justification.

Common ground is a good start if everyone has the best interest of wildlife and other animals at heart. I know that there is common ground between hunters and anti-hunting folk though that is never helped nor will it ever contribute to actual improvements to animal welfare whilst any debate remains so incredibly polarised. I wonder why you say I demonise animals; I don't think I have ever done that or even suggested that; can you suggest why you think that? What constitutes 'demonising' ? I have certainly never attributed negative characteristics to any animal nor do I blame any animal for being exactly what they are or do what they need to do. I am fascinated by animals and to my mind, far from demonising them I am astounded, fascinated and pretty much in awe of nature in toto.

I would hope that I have demonstrated at least some interest in and knowledge about the issues through referencing scientific and other research and by trying to continue engaging in discussion with people that take the opposite viewpoint, even when that is actually frustrating, difficult and sometime offensive? Would you agree that that is at least an attempt to look outside my own viewpoint through continuing to engage in those discussions?

For me, there are a great many issues which need unpicking on this subject; not only the moral and philosophical issue around hunting/killing animals in any setting but also the social, cultural and political issues which make the waters on this subject very, very murky.

I get the 'outrage' about 'killing wildlife' that anti-hunters (who wrongly assert that all trail hunting is illegal fox hunting) and animal rights campaigners have; but outrage isn't actually a basis for law nor is it necessarily reasonable in the face of incredibly complex ecological and environmental difficulties. Outrage is just a feeling; I think we can all feel outraged about things but that doesn't necessarily mean that this should dictate what other people do or that this sense of outrage is justified in relation to other people or nature.

 

[Sandstone1]

I dont think anyone has said that ALL trail hunting is in fact illegal fox hunting. Some packs do just drag or trail hunt, which I dont have a problem with BUT quite a lot of trail hunting is just a smokescreen for illegal hunting as admitted very clearly in the recent webinars. Sadly for the genuine trail and drag hunts this will tar them all with the same brush as it were. They know who to blame for this! A lot of hunts have a awful attitude, holding up traffic, trespassing, upsetting livestock and other animals and killing pets shall I go on?
Huntings time is past and a lot of it is their own fault.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I get the 'outrage' about 'killing wildlife' that anti-hunters (who wrongly assert that all trail hunting is illegal fox hunting)

Some anti-hunters assert that all trail hunting is illegal fox hunting.

Not all anti-hunters do this, though I can quite see why antis currently find it difficult to believe anything presented to them by the pro hunt lobby.

The local antis are keeping a watchful eye on the local now legit hunt (or they were before hunting was stopped due to Covid) and as long as they continue to demonstrably trail hunt, they are allowing them to continue. There is no love lost between the pros and the antis, for sure, but a way forward seems to have been found.

 

[Koweyka]

Some anti-hunters assert that all trail hunting is illegal fox hunting.

Not all anti-hunters do this, though I can quite see why antis currently find it difficult to believe anything presented to them by the pro hunt lobby.

The local antis are keeping a watchful eye on the local now legit hunt (or they were before hunting was stopped due to Covid) and as long as they continue to demonstrably trail hunt, they are allowing them to continue. There is no love lost between the pros and the antis, for sure, but a way forward seems to have been found.

I am aware the hunt you are referring too and yes they did demonstrably trail hunt that single season, but they were openly hunting foxes until then, they had to bow to pressure, but they were monitored and not, they haven’t been quite so on it this season though unfortunately.

If all trail hunts operated this way then a way forward has been found, but they don’t and it’s that is why we are where we are. Around the country out of something 210 hunts only 30 or so are regularly monitored, these unmonitored hunts knew exactly what was going on, so why should we believe all these unmonitored hunts are not hunting foxes ? Especially after the webinars.

 

[palo1]

Some anti-hunters assert that all trail hunting is illegal fox hunting.

Not all anti-hunters do this, though I can quite see why antis currently find it difficult to believe anything presented to them by the pro hunt lobby.

The local antis are keeping a watchful eye on the local now legit hunt (or they were before hunting was stopped due to Covid) and as long as they continue to demonstrably trail hunt, they are allowing them to continue. There is no love lost between the pros and the antis, for sure, but a way forward seems to have been found.

Fair cop - you are right; not all anti-hunters assert that all trail hunting is illegal fox hunting. Apologies for that generalisation. It just feels like that a lot of the time I guess. I can't personally see how drag hunting could ever really be mistaken for trail hunting or illegal fox hunting as the two are very different in a number of ways. (Not the point you were making I know. )

 

[palo1]

I am aware the hunt you are referring too and yes they did demonstrably trail hunt that single season, but they were openly hunting foxes until then, they had to bow to pressure, but they were monitored and not, they haven’t been quite so on it this season though unfortunately.

If all trail hunts operated this way then a way forward has been found, but they don’t and it’s that is why we are where we are. Around the country out of something 210 hunts only 30 or so are regularly monitored, these unmonitored hunts knew exactly what was going on, so why should we believe all these unmonitored hunts are not hunting foxes ? Especially after the webinars.

Can you explain why you stated that I demonise animals? Or respond to my latest post directly?

 

[Koweyka]

You have a kill everything first consider alternatives second mentality and frankly we are polar opposites in our views and I simply cannot see the point dragging this discussion out any further, we will never agree on anything.

 

[palo1]

You have a kill everything first consider alternatives second mentality and frankly we are polar opposites in our views and I simply cannot see the point dragging this discussion out any further, we will never agree on anything.

Gosh that is a bit of a statement @Koweyka; where on earth have I ever indicated that I have a 'kill first, consider alternatives second' mentality? How did you glean this from anything that I have posted? If you knew/know me in person (which I don't think you do) what about my actions makes you think this? I think that you don't see the point in continuing the discussion because you can't answer the questions I have asked and don't want to accept that, nor can you provide any facts or anything else to support your views.

I certainly don't agree that you and I would never agree on anything as clearly we are both engaged in a discussion about animal welfare which we have both said we think is important. I think we would both agree that we are in a time of environmental and natural crisis too and that more needs to be done to support nature. We differ on what we demonstrate, have read and potentially understand about the facts of those things and also the best way to address those problems. We may well differ philosophically, culturally, religiously and in other ways too but I can't be certain of any of those as they haven't really been discussed on this thread.

 

[Koweyka]

Well that’s your opinion but the truth is no I actually I don’t see the point. I could post a link about mink, how they became to be living in the wild 40 years before any activist release, I could say you single out one species to cull but ignore all the other species and reasoning that also play a part in declining species....so does that mean all these other species should also be culled, birds of prey eat water voles, should they be culled, cats aren’t native to the UK should they all be culled.....where does it end ? You are going to disagree with me and the circle begins again and detracts from the point of this thread.

I simply believe that there should always be an alternative consideration before culling/killing is undertaken and if culling or killing is necessary then it is done with dignity and consideration and you know what if that makes you think I am an “angry anti” then so be it. I have witnessed so much animal cruelty in my life that I abhor taking the life of anything be it insect, arachnids, feathered, scaled or furred creatures. I have spent over 40 years fighting for animal welfare, not just foxes but many species so I while I may not be a professor or have a string of letters after my name, write papers or theories, I have years of first hand experience on the ground on the suffering endured particularly by wild animals, but fox hunting is something I hate, something I won’t even pretend to understand ....

 

[Amirah]

Koweyka, while I admire your efforts to persuade Palo that hunting is indefensible/cruel/outdated etc etc I can tell you with complete certainty that it is a futile endeavour, which is why most of us threw in the towel pages ago (unless you enjoy being called ignorant and hearing about trophic cascades and her qualifications to speak as an authority on the subject). Hunting whether fox or trail is clearly her Very Favourite Thing, and, to borrow a phrase, I highly doubt there is any argument you could make, rhetorical strategy, plea, invocation, supplication, or vetoomus that you could employ that would convince her to reconsider.

Hearing of others experiences of the hunt has made me dislike it even more than I did at the beginning of this thread despite reading every one of Palos's lengthy posts and even some of the many links. Our local hunt has trespassed, killed a cat in its garden and was out with the terrier men just before the last lockdown, they don't even bother with a smokescreen and to the best of my knowledge never been stabbed or monitored. They used to drive my horses nuts but I am very happy to have moved away (and sad for my friends that still have to tolerate them).

 

[palo1]

Ok - that is fair enough if you don't want to engage in discussion. I completely agree with you about killing or culls being done with understanding, dignity and compassion. It is very sad that you have been so personally at the sharp end of animal cruelty for so many years. I would find that enormously difficult. I am just a bit mystified about why you say I have demonised animals and that I have a 'kill first, consider alternatives second mentality' when I really don't think I have ever suggested that is my approach. I guess that because I support trail hunting and have openly said that I think fox hunting, now illegal, was, in fact an appropriate way of controlling foxes for a number of reasons, you are making assumptions about my beliefs around welfare issues more widely. That is your right to make those assumptions thankfully but I would say you are wrong. Fox hunting, as it was, is not the same as trail hunting but perhaps if you don't even want to try or 'pretend' to understand the issues involved in either or both of those things it might be better to focus on other aspects of animal welfare tbh. Understanding the argument/reasons/motivations/facts around a practice you want to contest is quite important in making that voice heard effectively.

 

[palo1]

Koweyka, while I admire your efforts to persuade Palo that hunting is indefensible/cruel/outdated etc etc I can tell you with complete certainty that it is a futile endeavour, which is why most of us threw in the towel pages ago (unless you enjoy being called ignorant and hearing about trophic cascades and her qualifications to speak as an authority on the subject). Hunting whether fox or trail is clearly her Very Favourite Thing, and, to borrow a phrase, I highly doubt there is any argument you could make, rhetorical strategy, plea, invocation, supplication, or vetoomus that you could employ that would convince her to reconsider.

Hearing of others experiences of the hunt has made me dislike it even more than I did at the beginning of this thread despite reading every one of Palos's lengthy posts and even some of the many links. Our local hunt has trespassed, killed a cat in its garden and was out with the terrier men just before the last lockdown, they don't even bother with a smokescreen and to the best of my knowledge never been stabbed or monitored. They used to drive my horses nuts but I am very happy to have moved away (and sad for my friends that still have to tolerate them).

Blimey. I don't think I have set out my qualifications to act as an authority on the subject of trail hunting though I do know a bit about some other stuff mentioned. Trail hunting is not indefensible, cruel or outdated. I just think if you are going to enter into a debate, it kind of helps to be informed and to share facts and information. But if you don't want to, you don't have to of course. I am not sure whether to be pleased or not that most folk threw in the towel discussing this issue some time ago tbh!! But hey, that has made me laugh...

 

[Koweyka]

Ok - that is fair enough if you don't want to engage in discussion. I completely agree with you about killing or culls being done with understanding, dignity and compassion. It is very sad that you have been so personally at the sharp end of animal cruelty for so many years. I would find that enormously difficult. I am just a bit mystified about why you say I have demonised animals and that I have a 'kill first, consider alternatives second mentality' when I really don't think I have ever suggested that is my approach. I guess that because I support trail hunting and have openly said that I think fox hunting, now illegal, was, in fact an appropriate way of controlling foxes for a number of reasons, you are making assumptions about my beliefs around welfare issues more widely. That is your right to make those assumptions thankfully but I would say you are wrong. Fox hunting, as it was, is not the same as trail hunting but perhaps if you don't even want to try or 'pretend' to understand the issues involved in either or both of those things it might be better to focus on other aspects of animal welfare tbh. Understanding the argument/reasons/motivations/facts around a practice you want to contest is quite important in making that voice heard effectively.

I have seen fox hunting before and after the ban and I can say with a great deal of conviction that the hunts I go to, not a lot has changed, foxes are hunted and die, badger setts are filled in causing huge distress to badgers, terrier boys are still present, they are filmed forcing foxes out of artifice earths in front of the hounds, hiding fox bodies the list is endless.

If your pack is so well behaved and trailing properly and you absolutely have nothing to hide, tell me which pack it is and I will personally come and monitor it and report back to everyone here.

 

[Koweyka]

Koweyka, while I admire your efforts to persuade Palo that hunting is indefensible/cruel/outdated etc etc I can tell you with complete certainty that it is a futile endeavour, which is why most of us threw in the towel pages ago (unless you enjoy being called ignorant and hearing about trophic cascades and her qualifications to speak as an authority on the subject). Hunting whether fox or trail is clearly her Very Favourite Thing, and, to borrow a phrase, I highly doubt there is any argument you could make, rhetorical strategy, plea, invocation, supplication, or vetoomus that you could employ that would convince her to reconsider.

Hearing of others experiences of the hunt has made me dislike it even more than I did at the beginning of this thread despite reading every one of Palos's lengthy posts and even some of the many links. Our local hunt has trespassed, killed a cat in its garden and was out with the terrier men just before the last lockdown, they don't even bother with a smokescreen and to the best of my knowledge never been stabbed or monitored. They used to drive my horses nuts but I am very happy to have moved away (and sad for my friends that still have to tolerate them).

Thank you also for trying ! I have just offered to go and monitor her hunt, so she can put her money where her mouth is, I think my offer will be declined though....

if you do get advance notice of any meets and this goes for any people reading who see trail hunting for what it is, you can message me on here and I will contact any relevant groups nearby.

I feel sorry for your friends, hunts should be clearing the areas and notifying horse and landowners they will be in the area, but they don’t because they think the anti’s will be tipped off.

 

[palo1]

I have seen fox hunting before and after the ban and I can say with a great deal of conviction that the hunts I go to, not a lot has changed, foxes are hunted and die, badger setts are filled in causing huge distress to badgers, terrier boys are still present, they are filmed forcing foxes out of artifice earths in front of the hounds, hiding fox bodies the list is endless.

If your pack is so well behaved and trailing properly and you absolutely have nothing to hide, tell me which pack it is and I will personally come and monitor it and report back to everyone here.

Well thank you for that offer. We have had a couple of monitors previously but haven't seen them for several seasons. I will pm you.

 

[paddy555]

Thank you also for trying ! I have just offered to go and monitor her hunt, so she can put her money where her mouth is, I think my offer will be declined though....

if you do get advance notice of any meets and this goes for any people reading who see trail hunting for what it is, you can message me on here and I will contact any relevant groups nearby.

I feel sorry for your friends, hunts should be clearing the areas and notifying horse and landowners they will be in the area, but they don’t because they think the anti’s will be tipped off.

in the days of fox hunting meets were advertised in H & H and also in our local paper. Now those who need to know get told. Why the secrecy? If there is nothing to hide no reason for everyone to go along and watch. Palo?

 

[Sandstone1]

in the days of fox hunting meets were advertised in H & H and also in our local paper. Now those who need to know get told. Why the secrecy? If there is nothing to hide no reason for everyone to go along and watch. Palo?

Thats a very good question and one I would like the answer to. If hunts have nothing to hide why do they worry so much about sabs and why is everything done in secret?

 

[Koweyka]

If they were acting within the law and not hunting foxes then there would be no need for monitors/sabs or secrecy.

#trailhuntlies

 

[Sandstone1]

Thats a very good question and one I would like the answer to. If hunts have nothing to hide why do they worry so much about sabs and why is everything done in secret?

No answer came the stern reply!

 

[palo1]

No answer came the stern reply!

I think as you are clearly all fed up with my input on this subject I shouldn't bother and leave the group of you who want to continue your own narrative to do that. Hunts do publish meet cards but don't distribute them very well because of the guidance that they should do what they can to avoid monitors and anti's arriving on the doorstep of local communities and causing issues. It isn't great. Hunts do have work to do on that score. It is well known that anti-hunt groups are classed by the govt and police as potential extremists. That is probably a good enough reason.

 

[Sandstone1]

I think as you are clearly all fed up with my input on this subject I shouldn't bother and leave the group of you who want to continue your own narrative to do that. Hunts do publish meet cards but don't distribute them very well because of the guidance that they should do what they can to avoid monitors and anti's arriving on the doorstep of local communities and causing issues. It isn't great. Hunts do have work to do on that score. It is well known that anti-hunt groups are classed by the govt and police as potential extremists. That is probably a good enough reason.

I think local communities are more fed up of hunt followers blocking roads, churning up grass, upsetting livestock, trespassing on land they have no right to be including railway lines and delaying trains as well as killing peoples pets than they are of hunt sabs turning up to keep a eye on whats going on with "trail hunting" who turn up with terrier men and birds of prey to follow a scent.

 

[Upthecreek]

No answer came the stern reply!

Clearly most hunts would far rather be able to get on with their day without the presence/interference of sabs/monitors whether they have anything to hide or not. For some it will undoubtedly be so that they can hunt illegally. For others who have no intention of doing that it will simply be that their day is more enjoyable without them.