Clodagh
Well-Known Member
So does the falconer not enjoy himself? Surely if he wanted a hawk just as a pet he would just sit it on a perch and feed it frozen chicks? I do object to something being cruel if it is enjoyable and not cruel if it isn't.
Hunting is in a spot of bother
- Thread starter Tiddlypom
- Start date
So does the falconer not enjoy himself? Surely if he wanted a hawk just as a pet he would just sit it on a perch and feed it frozen chicks? I do object to something being cruel if it is enjoyable and not cruel if it isn't.
JulesRules
Well-Known Member
Just my two pence worth,..
I just think that regardless of anything else the hunts that are still fox hunting are missing a trick and tarrring the legal hunts with their brush. This is 2020, the older traditional generation won't be around much longer and to preserve the history of the hunt and be sucessful financially they need to move with the times to attract the younger generation...and that means hunting legally and ethically and making themselves attractive to a bigger market. Tbere are plenty of people who would love a day out riding in the countryside but want nothing to do with killing animals for fun. The hunt could still offer farmers a humane fox culling service as a sideline.
In terms of shooting, I don't actually have an issue with it as long as again it's done ethically and the meat enters the food chain. Licencing should take this into account to force the big guns to do this. I know some people have an issue with a poor shot and a bird then having it's neck wrung, but surely a lovely free range life and a slightly sticky end is far preferable to a chicken raised in a high intensity environment with a so called humane end.
I just think that regardless of anything else the hunts that are still fox hunting are missing a trick and tarrring the legal hunts with their brush. This is 2020, the older traditional generation won't be around much longer and to preserve the history of the hunt and be sucessful financially they need to move with the times to attract the younger generation...and that means hunting legally and ethically and making themselves attractive to a bigger market. Tbere are plenty of people who would love a day out riding in the countryside but want nothing to do with killing animals for fun. The hunt could still offer farmers a humane fox culling service as a sideline.
In terms of shooting, I don't actually have an issue with it as long as again it's done ethically and the meat enters the food chain. Licencing should take this into account to force the big guns to do this. I know some people have an issue with a poor shot and a bird then having it's neck wrung, but surely a lovely free range life and a slightly sticky end is far preferable to a chicken raised in a high intensity environment with a so called humane end.
BeckyFlowers
Well-Known Member
I completely agree with this and although I am 100% vegetarian so I wouldn't eat it anyway, I would much rather see meat production happen like this, where the animal is ultimately dispatched by a fully trained marksman. I think the biggest problem people have with hunting and shooting is the apparent enjoyment that large groups of people seem to get out of killing sentient beings. Killing animals should be done with compassion and respect for the animal and the land, in my opinion. Not chased half way across the countryside and ripped apart by a pack of dogs so a bunch of horse riders can have a jolly time. If hunting really was about controlling the fox population, why does it need to involve paying members of the public to join in? Why can't it be done with a few of the estate staff members or trained marksmen?
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
There are other posts on this subject now, but tbh I completely agree. Shooting is a harvest, of a sorts, watch a video of a broiler farm catch up, transport, slaughter and process and think would you rather be a pheasant?
We are a small farm with a small shoot, our whole farm is managed for the beneift of wildlife, bar foxes, magpies and mink. Apart from that everything gets to fill its boots. We have several species of owl, including barn, a thriving population of grey partridge that we reintroduced because we can, myriad hares and so many small brown jobs. We have plovers, redshank, fieldfare. We have buzzards and kites, kestrels and corvids... I could go on and on. If we stopped shooting someone higher up suggested it would be nice to make it accessible for cyclists and walkers - how would that help ground nesting birds? Leverets?
I pick up on several larger shoots and we go to such lengths to find any injured birds. (and at home of course). You say the guns move on to the next drive, yes they do, but two or three pickers up will be sweeping the far hedges for a bird. I usually miss lunch and go home after dark.
Every single bird on every shoot I attend is eaten, most by humans and the not so good by animals.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
When I used to hunt, the whole point of the day was the hounds. We are in cold scenting plough country, and watching an old hound work his way across a field and then the pack joining in, it is indescribable.
I love dog work, the same that many of you on here enjoy schooling your horses. Seeing something do, well, what it was bred to do is the whole thing to me.
Working with my dogs to find an injured bird, and seeing them use their instincts, knowledge and training to do so gives me the same thrill as a dressage rider feeling their horse really engage and work with you.
I love dog work, the same that many of you on here enjoy schooling your horses. Seeing something do, well, what it was bred to do is the whole thing to me.
Working with my dogs to find an injured bird, and seeing them use their instincts, knowledge and training to do so gives me the same thrill as a dressage rider feeling their horse really engage and work with you.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
??????
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
It sure is because I recognise the car and where it parks ?
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I called 999 5 times last weekend, we are under seige here. Our rural team is great, supporting us toffs as they do.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
When you send your child hunting, if they off lead rein you are basically relying on the field to keep an eye on them for you, you can try and follow by car, but once they are across a couple of fields, it pretty much impossible. Perhaps we have been lucky, they went out with several hunts as PC guests, but people were lovely to my children, it taught them manners and the ability to speak to adults as an equal, with no anxious mum.
There used to be a lot of standing about, and perhaps a small badly clipped 11.2 pony is seen as cute, but they were always nice to them, even when they became teenagers.
The thing about hunting is if you have a horse that is well behaved in company, and can stand still, you can just about take anything out, no one is really looking at what you ride, or how you ride. All our equines have been bargain basement, hunted from the field types with fluffy legs, not the super purpose kept hunter that I used to look after.
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
No such luck for us at all. The Police have no interest at all.
To be perfectly honest it's not the laming I object to, it's the damage they cause to the fences and crops with their vehicles.
If they came on foot it would be tolerable at least.
To be perfectly honest it's not the laming I object to, it's the damage they cause to the fences and crops with their vehicles.
If they came on foot it would be tolerable at least.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
We have spent a fortune on gates and digging ditches, the gates get nicked periodically but in between times they are on foot or on next doors land, but we do stick together.
rextherobber
Well-Known Member
At the end of the day, pheasant will never rival chicken as a meat, because it doesn't taste as nice. Not all shoots clear up the injured, or ensure all the meat enters the food chain, ( in my area, you literally annot give pheasant away!) Some hunt supporters are nice, some are not, some antis are nice, some are not. Bottom line is some hunts blatantly break the law, and the time has come for this to be addressed
paddy555
Well-Known Member
This.
I've often wondered why it needed so many horse riders to "assist" in fox control.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
as far as I can see both sides are as bad. I cannot stand either the hunters or the antis.
The harassment I have seen came from the hunt towards the antis. One was a lone anti in a very large field with no one near for a couple of hundred yards. 2 mounted riders were beating the shit out of him. On another occasion I found an anti lying by the side of the road covered in blood. No idea who started that one but inflicting that much damage by either side is not on IMHO.
palo1
Well-Known Member
This.
I've often wondered why it needed so many horse riders to "assist" in fox control.
Posts like this just reveal the level of ignorance there is about hunting
The horse riders do not 'assist' - except very occasionally and in a very secondary way for example to stop hounds heading where they shouldn't due to danger or lack of welcome but they are simply NOT necessary. The horse riders are there because they are following the hounds. The hound work is the 'sport' and watching hounds work really IS extraordinary especially if they have a good huntsman to work them. Houndwork has remained the sport that riders follow regardless of whether the fox is a legal quarry or not. Pre-ban obviously there was a determination to kill foxes, post ban the hound work is the focus and the reason why an animal based scent is laid as naturally as possible is so that hounds can continue to be suitably challenged. The urine of a huntsman (as often used by drag hounds) just isn't the same- it has very different scenting properties to an animal based scent and provides much less of a challenge for hounds.palo1
Well-Known Member
Sorry but you are using one animal to hunt and kill another - that is no different to pre-ban hunting with hounds. Fox hunting (the killing of the fox) was NOT the fun bit - the FUN is watching hounds work - as you enjoyed your hawk working and for the horse riders to cross the country as best they could.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
Posts like this just reveal the level of ignorance there is about hunting
the word "assist" was used very sarcastically. It was not used to infer the field were necessary to the activity.
I am not ignorant about hunting, I have been surrounded by them for the past 40 years with their hounds on my land without permission.I can see why that happened pre ban but not sure why post ban if they are following a scent which has not been laid on my fields.
I know exactly how superfluous the followers are to the activity of fox control. That was the point being made in the post I was replying to.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
They aren’t superfluous though, they are financing the whole shebang.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
The field are there to pay towards the running costs of the hunt with their subscriptions and cap fees.
No field = no income.
No field = no income.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
There are good and bad on both sides. Antis and hunters, but the fact remains that hunting foxes is illegal and it is going on. Anyone that says otherwise is either deluded or lying.
Its a bit hypocritical to accuse antis of scaring animals when out chasing a animal to its death.
Im not getting in to a long drawn out argument here. I have seen hunting from both sides, born and bred in the countryside, have owned livestock including poultry killed by a fox. Owned and ridden horses and have been hunting but I cant morally agree with hunting im afraid. yes its a tradition, yes its a country sport but things change and hunting is against the law and like it or not it cant go on in this day and age. Its not even a good way of pest control. If you are pro hunting just be honest about why you go.
Its a bit hypocritical to accuse antis of scaring animals when out chasing a animal to its death.
Im not getting in to a long drawn out argument here. I have seen hunting from both sides, born and bred in the countryside, have owned livestock including poultry killed by a fox. Owned and ridden horses and have been hunting but I cant morally agree with hunting im afraid. yes its a tradition, yes its a country sport but things change and hunting is against the law and like it or not it cant go on in this day and age. Its not even a good way of pest control. If you are pro hunting just be honest about why you go.
luckyoldme
Well-Known Member
But what's the relevance ?
Why is it necessary to say they are from a council estate?
Equine_Dream
Well-Known Member
The pack I hunt with are a legitimate trail hunt (I know I know they ALL say that). I wouldn't personally attend if I thought for a second that they were in fact hunting fox. While I hold mixed views it wouldn't sit well with me personally. I also know many of the landowners who allow the hunt on their land would not do so if they caught a wiff of illegal hunting.
Yet we have been subject to harassment by antis frequently. Despite the complete lack of evidence of illegal hunting and the openness which our hunt operates. The sabs are not interested. Yes those hunts who illegally hunt foxes are clearly wrong but so are the sabs who cause distress and harm to one animal under the pretence of protecting another are no better. Sabs have no right to take the moral high ground in this regard.
There is most definitely right and wrong on both sides but the smugness and righteousness of sabs does get up my nose I'll admit, especially when they are no better than the illegal hunts.
Yet we have been subject to harassment by antis frequently. Despite the complete lack of evidence of illegal hunting and the openness which our hunt operates. The sabs are not interested. Yes those hunts who illegally hunt foxes are clearly wrong but so are the sabs who cause distress and harm to one animal under the pretence of protecting another are no better. Sabs have no right to take the moral high ground in this regard.
There is most definitely right and wrong on both sides but the smugness and righteousness of sabs does get up my nose I'll admit, especially when they are no better than the illegal hunts.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Is it possible for people to read this paper from 2018 (revised from 2009) ? https://vawm.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Hunting-Wildlife-Moral-Issue-March-2018.pdf It is from the Veterinary Association for Wildlife Management and regards the moral issue around hunting and foxes in particular. Other studies consider a range of species management strategies too, including the second paper here: https://vawm.org.uk/animal-welfare/
Most of us believe that vets intrinsically have an objective and educated view of animal welfare issues and the VAWM is open to all vets with an interest in wildlife. I think that anyone who has an interest in hunting or wildlife should read this; there is no 'counter' paper produced by wildlife vets or vets at all on this subject nor are the conclusions in these papers challenged by any science or veterinary organisation.
Most of us believe that vets intrinsically have an objective and educated view of animal welfare issues and the VAWM is open to all vets with an interest in wildlife. I think that anyone who has an interest in hunting or wildlife should read this; there is no 'counter' paper produced by wildlife vets or vets at all on this subject nor are the conclusions in these papers challenged by any science or veterinary organisation.
Nasicus
Well-Known Member
Said in juxtaposition to the idea that only the toffs/rich enjoy hunting/bloodsports, and that the police aren't interest because of their 'rich' status.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I read 2 pages of the first link, Palo. Then I gave up. Written supporting fox hunting clearly by pro hunters. The para below did put me off a bit. Nothing to stop them coming to the countryside if they wish to observe wildlife. Many of us live in the countryside and see this on a daily basis. On the day after hunting we also see the damage their horses hooves have done especially to open moorland and grass verges as they have charged around..
I don't know were fox hunting comes into any of this at all. It is banned. People now have the opportunity to go for rides in the countryside trail riding. Perhaps the problem is the word HUNT. It is no longer a hunt, they are not hunting anything. They keep dogs who follow a scent and give their riders a day's outing. Perhaps they should be called a trail riding club to remove any suggestions of hunting. The public may like that better.
- Hunting people are in an advantaged posion to observe changes in wildlife demographics by virtue of their numbers, their widespread distribuon and their commitment.
I don't know were fox hunting comes into any of this at all. It is banned. People now have the opportunity to go for rides in the countryside trail riding. Perhaps the problem is the word HUNT. It is no longer a hunt, they are not hunting anything. They keep dogs who follow a scent and give their riders a day's outing. Perhaps they should be called a trail riding club to remove any suggestions of hunting. The public may like that better.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I read 2 pages of the first link, Palo. Then I gave up. Written supporting fox hunting clearly by pro hunters. The para below did put me off a bit. Nothing to stop them coming to the countryside if they wish to observe wildlife. Many of us live in the countryside and see this on a daily basis. On the day after hunting we also see the damage their horses hooves have done especially to open moorland and grass verges as they have charged around..
I have to say that most of the vets that I have had usually hide if the hunt is around. Those are the good vets who have a serious interest in animal welfare. They find themselves in the position of having to support their clients, some of whom hunt, by virtue of their employment. If I asked the ones who have been friends over the years I know what they would really like to answer.
- Hunting people are in an advantaged posion to observe changes in wildlife demographics by virtue of their numbers, their widespread distribuon and their commitment.
I don't know were fox hunting comes into any of this at all. It is banned. People now have the opportunity to go for rides in the countryside trail riding. Perhaps the problem is the word HUNT. It is no longer a hunt, they are not hunting anything. They keep dogs who follow a scent and give their riders a day's outing. Perhaps they should be called a trail riding club to remove any suggestions of hunting. The public may like that better.
Paddy555 - you have given up on the document because of the bias you perceive yet if you look at the references, those are unbiased and largely produced by organisations that have no direct interest in hunting. I agree that the issue is not around hunting and foxes at this point BUT I am all too aware of some entirely prejudiced and ignorant statements and attitudes about the entire premise of hunting.
I can't comment on the quality of your vets -I have met and used good and bad vets myself but for a veterinary body to research and produce this document suggests that there was and continues to be a group of professionals involved in wildlife welfare and management that challenge the attitudes that you and others have. It's great to debate and discuss but it really helps to be in possession of facts, information and as the current woke-spoke would have it 'the science'. If you don't like the science, research and data and you are unable to challenge it with an alternative set of facts then you are probably not winning the argument!!
Amirah
Well-Known Member
So according to the document wild foxes die painful deaths as nature is cruel therefore being chased and ripped apart by a pack of hounds is preferable. Yes, nature can be very cruel but I fail to see how this condones humans (who should know better) indulging in blatant cruelty in the aim of having a jolly good time, often at the expense of others.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-mobs-driving-communities-apart-a7948516.html
My lovely local hunt, who have made no effort to disguise what they are doing, killed a pet cat last season and made off with the corpse, which they had to later return as they had been seen. This was reported in the local press so not heresay. Nice.
The pro hunt brigade continue to defend the indefensible.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-mobs-driving-communities-apart-a7948516.html
My lovely local hunt, who have made no effort to disguise what they are doing, killed a pet cat last season and made off with the corpse, which they had to later return as they had been seen. This was reported in the local press so not heresay. Nice.
The pro hunt brigade continue to defend the indefensible.
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
In response to this wording in the post directly above my own;-
"yep it seems crazy to allow it just because it's gentrified. if it was a group of teenagers on a housing estate with guns setting their dogs on chickens or the like, there would be uproar."
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
A reminder of what some of the delightful, country based, animal welfare at heart hunting lot get up to.
Kimblewick Hunt, New Years Day 2019.
Kimblewick Hunt: Men sentenced for releasing fox 'into hunt path' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-50562260
Covert cctv filming, no antis present. Fox prodded out of a drain then pulled out by its tail just as hounds approach. The stooges who did the prodding got suspended prison sentences, but the brains who pulled their strings did not.
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/kimblewick-hunt-pair-found-guilty.781967/
Kimblewick Hunt, New Years Day 2019.
Kimblewick Hunt: Men sentenced for releasing fox 'into hunt path' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-50562260
Covert cctv filming, no antis present. Fox prodded out of a drain then pulled out by its tail just as hounds approach. The stooges who did the prodding got suspended prison sentences, but the brains who pulled their strings did not.
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/kimblewick-hunt-pair-found-guilty.781967/