Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Koweyka]

The use of drones is hugely questionable and difficult in legal terms - likely to become more so too so you probably don't have much of a market for sab-soiled drones....

Ahh this is what I have been waiting for .... for you to start to show your true colours ...sab soiled .... really though is that the best you have got ?

It’s a shame it’s not yet sunk in that over 85% of the country despise hunting and the people that do it, what do you think the public would prefer ?

My sab soiled hands soiled from protecting wildlife from you and your ilk or your blood stained ones from the deaths of thousands of foxes.

I was speaking to a DCI today around the use of drones and they have no issues around us using them, providing we have the correct licences which we do, not so easy to hide what you get up to from drones is it.

 

[palo1]

Ahh this is what I have been waiting for .... for you to start to show your true colours ...sab soiled .... really though is that the best you have got ?

It’s a shame it’s not yet sunk in that over 85% of the country despise hunting and the people that do it, what do you think the public would prefer ?

My sab soiled hands soiled from protecting wildlife from you and your ilk or your blood stained ones from the deaths of thousands of foxes.

I was speaking to a DCI today around the use of drones and they have no issues around us using them, providing we have the correct licences which we do, not so easy to hide what you get up to from drones is it.

Sorry you were offended by my phraseology. I do not believe that you are protecting wildlife from me in any shape or form nor do I have 'blood stained' hands from the death of any foxes or other wildlife. It is pretty offensive to suggest that to an individual you don't know. I am super glad you are talking to the police about the use of drones; that at least is responsible though the groups you are allied to may be seen in a very different light.

 

[Koweyka]

If you have hunted and killed foxes which you have then you have their blood on your hands, those foxes didn’t want to die they didn’t wave a flag saying kill me, the hunters I speak to have the same disassociation for the Fox that has been killed as you do.

I am super happy that you are super glad that we take drone use responsibly, but that’s the pro hunts problem isn’t it, you always always completely underestimate the anti movement.

 

[palo1]

If you have hunted and killed foxes which you have then you have their blood on your hands, those foxes didn’t want to die they didn’t wave a flag saying kill me, the hunters I speak to have the same disassociation for the Fox that has been killed as you do.

I am super happy that you are super glad that we take drone use responsibly, but that’s the pro hunts problem isn’t it, you always always completely underestimate the anti movement.

I was involved in fox hunting back in the day so in that respect you are right; I accept that. I always felt, sincerely that hunting was the best way to manage the fox population and thus other elements of our countryside in several ways. That was a system that had been in existence using methods (hounds) that had been refined over hundreds of years without detriment to the fox population. Hunting with hounds absolutely was a proxy for larger, extinct predators in relation to foxes. That is what I believed and understood then and that is what I believe now. I do not engage in fox hunting now. I do trail hunt within the law and still believe that activity, without the death of foxes, has validity in a number of ways. We fundamentally disagree. I don't think it is un-called for to push back against opinions which I believe are wrong from start to finish nor do I believe it is wrong to state that I don't believe Hunt Saboteurs have the best interests of animals at heart. Nothing I know or have seen of sabs leads me to believe that this is the case. Perhaps you are unique, different to what I have heard of from friends and professionals (police, vets, doctors, animal welfare officers, wildlife trust workers) with regard to anti-hunt activities. I am sorry you are so angry, sorry that your anger seems to be personally directed at me in this particular place (the HHO forum) - someone you absolutely don't know and sorry that whatever you feel you do towards animal welfare and wildlife crime requires such aggression and vitriol. That may just be your way of doing things, your way of 'coping' and of communicating. It doesn't make any impact on me other than to confirm what I already believe I am afraid.

ETA - Just in case you are wondering, I have never hunted hounds - I totally accept that by supporting fox hunting before the ban that I do have the blood of killed foxes on my hands as it were (your expression, not mine; I don't see it like that at all). The emotive language that you use doesn't change the way I feel however but it is hugely irritating as it is so clearly intended to be offensive and manipulative.

 

[Koweyka]

Oh you do make me chuckle, you and the language you use and the accusations you throw around are typical of what we deal with every time we go out.

I have seen too many foxes die at the hands of hunts to be anything other than angry, this why I am so driven to stop foxes losing their lives so you can have a bit of fun.

In my group we have two ex policemen, a retired doctor, vets nurses, nhs nurse, a solicitor so all the same people that you quote ....not quite what you allege Sabs are.

It’s not personal towards you, though fair play to you, you put your head above the parapet and admit what you are, but you constantly defend the indefensible. You attempt to defend it on a thread that exposed trail hunting for what it truly is .... a myth a disguise for the real thing, you must know it goes on, many many people within hunting knows it goes on, but you constantly say it doesn’t. I would have far more respect for you, if you came out and said yes you know what, it does go on and we need to stop it and sort it out from within, sort yourselves out, get rid of the people who think they are above the law and stop killing foxes. Work with the anti’s and prove you aren’t chasing and killing foxes, if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about. In fact I know of several packs doing this exact same thing.

 

[Koweyka]

I see you have edited your post to say that you have never hunted hounds ....

This is taken from a message you sent me that you didn’t allow me to reply to

“I will not share which hunt I trail hunt with”

So make your mind up do you hunt or don’t you ....

Irritating ....one of the nicer insults I have had, though I get the distinct impression that you trump me on the irritation scale.

 

[L&M]

If ITV hadn’t got hold of it I doubt there would be any condemnation and if you read the online chatter in the hunting community there is more condemnation that they sneaked into Cottesmore territory.... Never mind those hounds were very interested in what appears to be a fox earth or badger sett ....or did they have a trail layer out as well.

Why shouldn’t the HSA point fingers ? Why shouldn’t anyone point fingers ?

Sorry, I am a hunting person and utterly disgusted by this pack and their Mastership, and don't give a hoot about 'who's country they were on'.

Another example of how hunting will destroy itself, without any help from legislation or monitors.

Bloody idiots making a mockery of covid restrictions and enforcing the public opinion that hunting folk think they live above the law......

 

[palo1]

I see you have edited your post to say that you have never hunted hounds ....

This is taken from a message you sent me that you didn’t allow me to reply to

“I will not share which hunt I trail hunt with”

So make your mind up do you hunt or don’t you ....

Irritating ....one of the nicer insults I have had, though I get the distinct impression that you trump me on the irritation scale.

I just meant that I have been a huntsman or master of a hunt

I see you have edited your post to say that you have never hunted hounds ....

This is taken from a message you sent me that you didn’t allow me to reply to

“I will not share which hunt I trail hunt with”

So make your mind up do you hunt or don’t you ....

Irritating ....one of the nicer insults I have had, though I get the distinct impression that you trump me on the irritation scale.

Now I am laughing!! I thought you knew all about hunting and I had assumed you would understand that I meant I have never been either a huntsman or master (hunting hounds) - sorry though I think there was a typo in one of my responses. I have only been a member of the field so never in charge of hounds, not that it is particularly significant here.

 

[teapot]

Does anyone know if foot following counts under the 'no spectators' ruling in Friday's Govt guidelines?

Foot following or ramble in the countryside is one thing, but if hunting comes under organised sport/activites, hunts may have to be careful.

 

[Koweyka]

Well you know what happens when you assume it make an ass out of you ...

The field are just as culpable in our eyes, when they ride into us to stop us getting to the fox, when they deliberately block roads with horses, when they signal as to which way the fox ran it all contributes to the fox dying.

 

[DabDab]

If you have hunted and killed foxes which you have then you have their blood on your hands, those foxes didn’t want to die they didn’t wave a flag saying kill me, the hunters I speak to have the same disassociation for the Fox that has been killed as you do.

What about the disassociation many people have with the killing carried out by their cat? They know the cat kills and are directly responsible for introducing it to that environment, entirely for their own pleasure.


I felt like cats hadn't been mentioned for a page or two

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Dear god can you two go and have a private chat? I mean you are never going to convince each other, neither is willing to agree to disagree and it’s getting wearing reading you both openly insulting each other.

Palo I get your defending trail hunting and kow-watever I get you want it banned but neither hunter nor sab have clean hands despite what you are posting. Some hunts are obeying the laws and some aren’t and some sabs are damaging property, hurting hounds and horses and being a fecking menace and some aren’t. Why not just put each other on ignore and move on? I’m about to hit it and Unwatch this thread for the sake of my email alerts ??

 

[ycbm]

What about the disassociation many people have with the killing carried out by their cat? They know the cat kills and are directly responsible for introducing it to that environment, entirely for their own pleasure.

Cat whataboutery a-gain ?.

There is no disassociation.

Hounds are organised and managed so that they chase wildlife, so followers can enjoy the chase.

Cats are not.

People keep hounds to enjoy having them chase a wild animal.

People keep cats to enjoy looking at them and having them sit on their laps and pur. In pet cats, the hunting is an undesirable and undesired side effect, not the primary reason that they are kept.

End of.
.

 

[Koweyka]

She messaged me had a bit of a rant but blocked me from reply immediately and I asked her to put me on ignore, she wouldn’t but then I think she secretly likes the banter ....

 

[DabDab]

Cat whataboutery a-gain ?.

There is no disassociation.

Hounds are organised and managed so that they chase wildlife, so followers can enjoy the chase.

Cats are not.

People keep hounds to enjoy having them chase a wild animal.

People keep cats to enjoy looking at them and having them sit on their laps and pur. In pet cats, the hunting is an undesirable and undesired side effect, not the primary reason that they are kept.

End of.
.

? I was partly joking because the back and forth between K and Palo getting dull.

However, in relation specifically to the disassociation point that Koweyka came out with there, it is relevant.

If someone wants something soft that will sit on their lap and be stroked then people could go for a nice big lop-eared rabbit. That won't be killing any wildlife.

I used to have a lovely rabbit and it was unfortunately killed by someone else's cat one day when out in my garden. I still feel a lot of guilt about the way my beautiful pet died, but he was big and black and lived with terriers, so it never even occurred to me that a random cat would attack him. That cat's owner won't be aware that it killed my rabbit, but they will have been apathetic to the fact that their cat goes out and kills something. I have a cat now, and I just don't think about it, doesn't mean I'm not (morally) responsible for anything he kills.

Obviously I don't think it is any defence for anything that goes on in hunting or an argument in favour of hunting though. Because it isn't.

 

[Sandstone1]

Saying its ok to hunt foxes because cats kill is completely ridiculous and really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. Yes cats kill, they do not gather in numbers, dress up and go out and cause huge disruption to other people and livestock under the pretence of following a trail. For goodness sake get real.
Fact is fox hunting is illegal. Trail hunting will be before long and the only people to blame for that is hunters who have broken the law. You can argue and debate until the cows come home but that is the fact of it. No way in this day and age will hunting be allowed to continue. Face it and move on!

 

[DabDab]

?? are you responding to me sandstone? If so, did you read what I wrote

 

[CrunchieBoi]

My background is in ecology and I just can't see how free-roaming cats or fox-hunting with hounds could be viewed as anything other than a negative for wildlife and ecosystmes.

The fact remains however, that one is illegal and the other is not.

On a side-note how many packs are there roughly in the UK? I had the impression it was around 200 but might be wrong. If the leaked webinars were indeed attended by around 150 different people, that looks awfully like a fair chunk of the employed hunting community were hoping to pick up tips on how to bodyswerve the law.

 

[DabDab]

I agree CB. Although I often wonder if what is arguably the most ecologically damaging aspect of hunting is the bit that they left legal.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Which specific bit are you referring to DabDab?

 

[Tiddlypom]

The crashing through the countryside disturbing wildlife, farm animals and pets?

 

[DabDab]

The crashing through the countryside disturbing wildlife, farm animals and pets?

Yep that.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

The crashing through the countryside disturbing wildlife, farm animals and pets?

I agree, whichever way you look at trail hunting, it's difficult to come up with a positive angle to it (ecologically speaking).

 

[Koweyka]

I agree, whichever way you look at trail hunting, it's difficult to come up with a positive angle to it (ecologically speaking).

Or even morally speaking.

 

[Sandstone1]

?? are you responding to me sandstone? If so, did you read what I wrote

No, not you sorry. I was replying to Palo1.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Hunting Leaks has revealed another corker, this time from the Sinnington Hunt, for the season 19/20.

https://huntingleaks.is/sinnington-...BffnxfPnMYvRS8okWGU3ffsOK3qWoXy_OhwH6a0VjkyCE

The Sinnington seem not to have been troubled much by saboteurs, so have apparently been able to carry on fox hunting with little pretence at laying or following trails. This document offers advice on how they need to up their game in case the sabs or police turn up.




ETA I've blanked out individual's names, but they are visible on the original.

ETA The reference to 'holding up' when autumn hunting, and whether it is wise for them to continue the practice.

Holding up is cubbing as per pre ban, when the field surrounded a covert, hounds were sent in, the field made lots of noise to prevent the young foxes from escaping, so young hounds could have easy kills and learn their trade.

Holding up is in no way post ban compliant.

 

[Fellewell]

My pet dogs hunt trails every time we leave the house. They are mostly on lead at the moment because of nesting birds but at other times they're crashing about through the undergrowth because that's instinctive for them. Luckily my recall is good enough to prevent problems, although if I had to contend with balaclava-clad nitwits distracting them or me then my recall may fail.
I'm guessing most sabs are in favour of rewilding. If a guardian breed is used to protect sheep, for example, then wolves may be killed. They would probably suggest that sheep are kept in barns in these circumstances. Just which animals are allowed to display natural behaviours, in their opinion? Is it just the ones that aren't owned by people perceived as having lots of money?
Don't kid yourself that you don't enjoy hunting Koweyka, you've been baiting Palo since you got here.

 

[Silver Clouds]

Interesting that they don't include 'obeying the law' in their list of reasons to trail lay- a lot of hunts really are going to bring about their own demise.

 

[Koweyka]

My pet dogs hunt trails every time we leave the house. They are mostly on lead at the moment because of nesting birds but at other times they're crashing about through the undergrowth because that's instinctive for them. Luckily my recall is good enough to prevent problems, although if I had to contend with balaclava-clad nitwits distracting them or me then my recall may fail.
I'm guessing most sabs are in favour of rewilding. If a guardian breed is used to protect sheep, for example, then wolves may be killed. They would probably suggest that sheep are kept in barns in these circumstances. Just which animals are allowed to display natural behaviours, in their opinion? Is it just the ones that aren't owned by people perceived as having lots of money?
Don't kid yourself that you don't enjoy hunting Koweyka, you've been baiting Palo since you got here.

Yeh yeh whatever, crack on with the insults and delusions. I have been open that I joined this thread because of the crud she was spouting I have made no secret of that.

 

[Koweyka]

Hunting Leaks has revealed another corker, this time from the Sinnington Hunt, for the season 19/20.

https://huntingleaks.is/sinnington-...BffnxfPnMYvRS8okWGU3ffsOK3qWoXy_OhwH6a0VjkyCE

The Sinnington seem not to have been troubled much by saboteurs, so have apparently been able to carry on fox hunting with little pretence at laying or following trails. This document offers advice on how they need to up their game in case the sabs or police turn up.

View attachment 68816

View attachment 68814
ETA I've blanked out individual's names, but they are visible on the original.

Smokescreen anyone, not one of the registered “trail packs” should be allowed to leave kennels again.

We know that we can only ever cover a fraction of hunts at any given time and the reason the hunts haven’t outed the packs flaunting the law is because they themselves don’t want to become targets, they are basically “nimbys”