Hunting is in a spot of bother

[paddy555]

For the life of me I don't know!! Well, not everyone feels confident to ride across country possibly at speed or over tricky terrain and obstacles. Not everyone enjoys watching hounds following a scent especially not in cold and/or utterly miserable weather/horizontal rain. Not everyone has the patience to sit quietly to wait until hounds can find a line to follow - that can be quite dull if you are not interested in the way hounds work. Not everyone knows a mate or friend that is involved in trail hunting so may not feel confident to give it a go and the myths of trail-hunting entirely outside the scope of what the antis say can make it seem daunting. Not everyone has a horse that can listen and/or be safe to ride in the open in company. Not everyone has transport or wants to use their horse time for riding in the winter when they may want to rest their horses/train for a certain discipline. Not everyone wants to do any particular activity for all sorts of reasons.

sorry, I didn't ask that question very well. I meant if trail hunting was so wonderful why don't people who want to hunt just do that. Why do they need to hunt fox.

 

[millikins]

so if trail hunting is so wonderful why doesn't everyone do it?[/QUOTE

Not everyone does dressage or jousting or eventing, I'm sure each person who participates thinks their activity is wonderful.

 

[millikins]

sorry, I didn't ask that question very well. I meant if trail hunting was so wonderful why don't people who want to hunt just do that. Why do they need to hunt fox.

I expect many of the mounted followers think they are trail hunting. And if a fox is killed it's explained as an accident.

 

[palo1]

sorry, I didn't ask that question very well. I meant if trail hunting was so wonderful why don't people who want to hunt just do that. Why do they need to hunt fox.

You would need to ask someone else that question.

 

[Tiddlypom]

C'mon, the ridden field know perfectly well whether they are hunting a trail or a fox.

They are morally guilty as heck if they ride with a fox hunting pack, even though technically only the hunt staff and masters are committing an offence. All the fun of an illegal activity with none of the consequences.

 

[Koweyka]

For the life of me I don't know!! Well, not everyone feels confident to ride across country possibly at speed or over tricky terrain and obstacles. Not everyone enjoys watching hounds following a scent especially not in cold and/or utterly miserable weather/horizontal rain. Not everyone has the patience to sit quietly to wait until hounds can find a line to follow - that can be quite dull if you are not interested in the way hounds work. Not everyone knows a mate or friend that is involved in trail hunting so may not feel confident to give it a go and the myths of trail-hunting entirely outside the scope of what the antis say can make it seem daunting. Not everyone has a horse that can listen and/or be safe to ride in the open in company. Not everyone has transport or wants to use their horse time for riding in the winter when they may want to rest their horses/train for a certain discipline. Not everyone wants to do any particular activity for all sorts of reasons.

I know what anti hunters say about the reasons not to go trail hunting so no need to repeat all those, there are other logistical and equestrian reasons too. If you look at a great many of our most respected equestrians they have enjoyed and appreciated hunting for their horses and their own sakes. It is a thing. In spite of all the vitriol and the mess that has been reported a huge number of people involved with horses and all sorts of other people still enjoy and support trail hunting and every one of them has their own reason and take on that. I do often wonder how antis by-pass the very many 'normal', 'reasonable' people who trail hunt but they do because it would be ridiculous to assert that everybody involved in trail hunting is a sick, bloodthirsty, sadist who is also mentally disturbed. It makes a total nonsense of the vets, doctors, nurses, farriers, teachers, farmers, labourers, plumbers, artists, policemen and women, teenagers (who really do know their own minds), etc that enjoy going out with hounds. But hey, I have said this before and there probably isn't a need to repeat that on this forum where there is a really polarised debate on the issue.

Just as it’s ridiculous to assert that all anti’s are unwashed, unemployed townies with no idea of the countryside, wouldn’t you say….

You still try and paint a pretty trail hunting picture, when it’s all a fraud, a lie, a myth …a smokescreen for hunting foxes. You are not fooling anyone Palo.

Also to be perfectly honest I think to continue to go out with a hunt that is blatantly hunting and killing and you are fully aware of this, I think you are mentally disturbed, what sane individual would want to be a part of that heinous cruelty and be a part of the death of innocent animals week after week and claim to be a well balanced individual.

Why continue with a fox hunt, why not drag or clean boot or anything that doesn’t involve risking the lives of living creatures. I will never understand it.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I expect many of the mounted followers think they are trail hunting. And if a fox is killed it's explained as an accident.

Well this would apply to me. My kids went to a pony club attached to a hunt so they could hunt for free. For one reason or another we never actually went to a meet but planned to. Until I realised they were probably illegally hunting foxes.

if I were to hunt now I’d go to a bloodhound hunt and follow a trail. I will never hunt with foxhounds. I had zero interest in hunting till the ban then felt I could join in as I assumed the hunts genuinely followed a trail.

As I said earlier in the thread, I don’t want to get into a debate about hunting per se. But people have the right to make an informed choice about what they are doing so I was furious about the deceit.

 

[palo1]

I expect many of the mounted followers think they are trail hunting. And if a fox is killed it's explained as an accident.

I think this is possible with some of the bigger hunts or where hunt staff are more remote from the field AND they either lose control of hounds or are hunting a fox. Back in the day before the ban it wasn't at all unusual for members of the field to very rarely see a fox even when that was a legitimate quarry so for many folk trail hunting isn't that different in that sense. It is something I have always wondered about in relation to antis but I don't really want to go down that road just now.

 

[Ambers Echo]

C'mon, the ridden field know perfectly well whether they are hunting a trail or a fox.

I wouldn’t have done. I’m a city girl. Clueless about hunting but liked the idea of it. Sounded fun! Maybe if I’d ever gone I’d have worked it out but who knows

 

[palo1]

Just as it’s ridiculous to assert that all anti’s are unwashed, unemployed townies with no idea of the countryside, wouldn’t you say….

You still try and paint a pretty trail hunting picture, when it’s all a fraud, a lie, a myth …a smokescreen for hunting foxes. You are not fooling anyone Palo.

Also to be perfectly honest I think to continue to go out with a hunt that is blatantly hunting and killing and you are fully aware of this, I think you are mentally disturbed, what sane individual would want to be a part of that heinous cruelty and be a part of the death of innocent animals week after week and claim to be a well balanced individual.

Why continue with a fox hunt, why not drag or clean boot or anything that doesn’t involve risking the lives of living creatures. I will never understand it.

I have never made those assertions about antis; the hunt monitors I have come across have been either very polite and respectful or full on masked, aggressive, camera wielding intimidators but I haven't ever assumed anything about their personal habits or employment. Are you telling me that I am going out with a hunt that is blatantly hunting and killing?

You are clearly telling me that I am mentally disturbed but I am not sure why other than that I support legal trail hunting which you cannot accept. Is that a form of gas-lighting or just a kind of personal fascism? I have and do go out with a drag pack and love going out with a clean boot hunt too. I try, in my life generally, not to put any living thing at risk and would hope you do too.

 

[ycbm]

Palo can I ask if you approve of the verdict being appealed?
.

 

[palo1]

Well this would apply to me. My kids went to a pony club attached to a hunt so they could hunt for free. For one reason or another we never actually went to a meet but planned to. Until I realised they were probably illegally hunting foxes.

if I were to hunt now I’d go to a bloodhound hunt and follow a trail. I will never hunt with foxhounds. I had zero interest in hunting till the ban then felt I could join in as I assumed the hunts genuinely followed a trail.

As I said earlier in the thread, I don’t want to get into a debate about hunting per se. But people have the right to make an informed choice about what they are doing so I was furious about the deceit.

I would hope you were not deceived by your local hunt. Bloodhounding is great fun so you should have no doubts about that.

 

[Ambers Echo]

My local hunt has been implicated in lots of unsavourary activities. So no, I don’t trust them now and we dropped out of pony club too. But there is a well regarded bloodhound pack nearby so maybe one day …

 

[Koweyka]

I have never made those assertions about antis; the hunt monitors I have come across have been either very polite and respectful or full on masked, aggressive, camera wielding intimidators but I haven't ever assumed anything about their personal habits or employment. Are you telling me that I am going out with a hunt that is blatantly hunting and killing?

You are clearly telling me that I am mentally disturbed but I am not sure why other than that I support legal trail hunting which you cannot accept. Is that a form of gas-lighting or just a kind of personal fascism? I have and do go out with a drag pack and love going out with a clean boot hunt too. I try, in my life generally, not to put any living thing at risk and would hope you do too.

Ooh you do make me giggle, you can read one thing and make it into a totally different scenario in your head to fit your narrative. Not everything is about you darling.

 

[palo1]

Palo can I ask if you approve of the vetdict being appealed?
.

I think an appeal is pointless - regardless of what may happen at appeal, the reputational damage has been done and overturning the verdict on appeal would be a pyrrhic victory. I was very disappointed in the verdict of course but the more important task for hunting now and where I would prefer to see energy spent is on cleaning up the ghastly mess and instigating proper discipline, governance and effective and open communication about trailhunting. I know of a young huntsman who has put his life and soul, as well as that of his young family into legal trail hunting, engaging the community, safely hunting much loved and uniquely bred hounds. He represents the faith that many of us put into an institution that clearly couldn't do a proper job and communicate that job safely, clearly and with no room for the kind of toxic doubt that we have experienced. I am furious on his behalf as well as the behalf of many of us who want to see hunting in the 21st century.

I can't imagine a UK winter without being sat on a hill somewhere in the freezing/horizontal rain/wind/snow, watching wonderful, extraordinary hounds trying to work a scent, in the company of friends both equine and human and knowing that when hounds speak we might fly across ground we know and love and take on what comes our way. For me that is a very essential connection with all of the things that matter to me and it has nothing whatsoever to do with foxes...it never has. I know that antis will scoff and mock, call me vile names and suggest that I am deranged, sick or bloodthirsty and am hiding my real intentions (ie to take pleasure in killing animals) but I can at least still say how it is for me. So, because of how important that all is for me, I want to see trail hunting put right where there are things to be put right.

 

[ycbm]

I was very disappointed in the verdict of course

I hope that you mean that you were disappointed that the things you were assured, (an assurance you passed on to us on the forum), were taken out of context were in fact proven to be true?

I hope the sport can sort itself, I'd quite like to trail hunt Joe.

But I really do think that it's going to be crucial to give up using fox scent, because it's going to be an uphill battle after this to convince anyone the sport is clean if it persists in using the scent of an animal it's not supposed to be chasing. .

 

[DabDab]

Just as it’s ridiculous to assert that all anti’s are unwashed, unemployed townies with no idea of the countryside, wouldn’t you say….

You still try and paint a pretty trail hunting picture, when it’s all a fraud, a lie, a myth …a smokescreen for hunting foxes. You are not fooling anyone Palo.

Also to be perfectly honest I think to continue to go out with a hunt that is blatantly hunting and killing and you are fully aware of this, I think you are mentally disturbed, what sane individual would want to be a part of that heinous cruelty and be a part of the death of innocent animals week after week and claim to be a well balanced individual.

Why continue with a fox hunt, why not drag or clean boot or anything that doesn’t involve risking the lives of living creatures. I will never understand it.

You are a disgustingly rude individual. I don't agree with Palo's take on hunting but I am fairly certain that the words in your first para here have never been written on this thread before, so that is just the machinations of your own (seemingly v.adversarial) mind.

 

[DabDab]

Good news on the verdict, and moreso because of the decisiveness of the judge's words.

I agree with ycbm, there is no reasonable justification for training using fox scent anymore and it would go a long way to show they were serious about change if they all agreed to pick another scent.

 

[Michen]

I think an appeal is pointless - regardless of what may happen at appeal, the reputational damage has been done and overturning the verdict on appeal would be a pyrrhic victory. I was very disappointed in the verdict of course but the more important task for hunting now and where I would prefer to see energy spent is on cleaning up the ghastly mess and instigating proper discipline, governance and effective and open communication about trailhunting. I know of a young huntsman who has put his life and soul, as well as that of his young family into legal trail hunting, engaging the community, safely hunting much loved and uniquely bred hounds. He represents the faith that many of us put into an institution that clearly couldn't do a proper job and communicate that job safely, clearly and with no room for the kind of toxic doubt that we have experienced. I am furious on his behalf as well as the behalf of many of us who want to see hunting in the 21st century.

I can't imagine a UK winter without being sat on a hill somewhere in the freezing/horizontal rain/wind/snow, watching wonderful, extraordinary hounds trying to work a scent, in the company of friends both equine and human and knowing that when hounds speak we might fly across ground we know and love and take on what comes our way. For me that is a very essential connection with all of the things that matter to me and it has nothing whatsoever to do with foxes...it never has. I know that antis will scoff and mock, call me vile names and suggest that I am deranged, sick or bloodthirsty and am hiding my real intentions (ie to take pleasure in killing animals) but I can at least still say how it is for me. So, because of how important that all is for me, I want to see trail hunting put right where there are things to be put right.

Beautifully put.

 

[palo1]

I hope that you mean that you were disappointed that the things you were assured, (an assurance you passed on to us on the forum), were taken out of context were in fact proven to be true?

I hope the sport can sort itself, I'd quite like to trail hunt Joe.

But I really do think that it's going to be crucial to give up using fox scent, because it's going to be an uphill battle after this to convince anyone the sport is clean if it persists in using the scent of an animal it's not supposed to be chasing. .

Yes, I am hugely disappointed that Mark Hankinson has been deemed to have encouraged illegal hunting; that puts what I hold dear in great jeopardy. I have listened to the webinars, read the transcripts of the same and read all of the court case submissions and still think that things were taken out of context. I know of people attending those webinars (and others that didn't) who are shocked at the verdict because that is not how those things were received but that is now water under the bridge I think.

The issue of fox scent is a historic one thanks to the awfulness of the hunting act. Some people will argue that if fox scent was the real problem then hounds would never riot on other animals but I am not interested in that. I am more interested in the integrity of the way the trail is laid - with many interruptions and challenges to the hounds etc which is far more testing for hounds than the 'plain drag' that drag packs use and which can end up feeling like either a fancy dress fun ride OR team chasing with less rules and more nutters!! Blood hounding feels much more 'real' in that way too. Trail hunting is supposed to be a true test of hounds so the laid trail has to be more difficult - utlising tricky cover, water, interruptions, stinky drains etc. It shouldn't really be about the field having a jolly as hound work is absolutely supposed to be the key.

My old dog was a failed hound - she was a bit 'idle' as she would follow a trail for a couple of miles or so and then want to go home please!! I had her from the age of 2. She had a great nose and would have made a great S &R dog if I had wanted to get involved in that. She was trained, not on the scent of fox but something else (I can't remember exactly what it was as I had her more than 13 years ago) and loved apples. I am sure she would have followed a rasher of bacon with fairly minimal training...but no matter what I could have trained her to follow, she still would have been rather 'laid back' about it all lol (so perhaps not an ideal search and rescue dog after all...) She was a gem in any case.

 

[Michen]

I think this is possible with some of the bigger hunts or where hunt staff are more remote from the field AND they either lose control of hounds or are hunting a fox. Back in the day before the ban it wasn't at all unusual for members of the field to very rarely see a fox even when that was a legitimate quarry so for many folk trail hunting isn't that different in that sense. It is something I have always wondered about in relation to antis but I don't really want to go down that road just now.

I can honestly say that out of the 4 trail packs I’ve hunted with over the last few years I have never seen a fox ?‍. Whether that means they are hunting legally or the hounds have not found anything when I’ve been out I don’t know. But then I’ve never been out particularly regularly and probably more often with drag than trail.

 

[ester]

As a hunting fanatic, I am actually also pleased with the outcome, and agree the fine should have been bigger.

He has put hunting into even more disrepute and jeopardised the future of hunts that do actually follow a trail (mine being one).

Bloody idiot and just hope that finally all packs are made to tow the line, so that our wonderful sport and hounds still have a purpose, but going forward in a more civilised and legal manner.

And this is why the statement from the MFHA confuses me, rather than state the above (which they really should have done) they are going to look to appeal it!? What a terrible statment.

 

[Koweyka]

You are a disgustingly rude individual. I don't agree with Palo's take on hunting but I am fairly certain that the words in your first para here have never been written on this thread before, so that is just the machinations of your own (seemingly v.adversarial) mind.

So Palo can insinuate that anti’s have an idealistic view of the sort of people we believe ride out with the hunt, however when I mention the same can be said about the idealistic view of the well known insinuations about antis is that we are all unemployable unwashed townie yobs and you have an issue with that.

Your opinion of me means absolutely nothing to me, you haven’t walked a step in my shoes and seen what Trail Hunting is and how foxes are horrifically killed.

I won’t stoop down to your low level of aggressive name calling, for something you are clearly confused about.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I expect many of the mounted followers think they are trail hunting. And if a fox is killed it's explained as an accident.

The hunts, before the ban, were doing a ' job for the farmers. They were getting rid of the foxes that may or may not harm livestock or game birds in return for riding across the farmers land. I suppose the hunts felt trail hunting was a bit pointless. I'm glad he was found guilty, hopefully paving the way for a few more guilty verdicts. They are kinder ways ie shooting the foxes in order to keep numbers down. My OH is a game keeper and shoots foxes regularly. They know absolutely nothing about it.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Yes, I am hugely disappointed that Mark Hankinson has been deemed to have encouraged illegal hunting; that puts what I hold dear in great jeopardy. I have listened to the webinars, read the transcripts of the same and read all of the court case submissions and still think that things were taken out of context.

So you're still in denial about the fact that MH was encouraging illegal hunting? It was clear as day, as the judge agreed.

Good grief. You really do have your head in the sand.

I fully agree with ycbm and others that the only possible was for hunting to save itself now is to voluntarily move away from using fox scent, and to state that very publicly pdq. The ball is firmly in hunting's court now as to how to respond, but soon the choice will be out of their hands as more major landowners bar access. Who wants to be seen to allow a known illegal activity on their land?

 

[skinnydipper]

No matter how people dress it up, they use fox scent because they want to hunt fox.

 

[palo1]

So you're still in denial about the fact that MH was encouraging illegal hunting? It was clear as day, as the judge agreed.

Good grief. You really do have your head in the sand.

I fully agree with ycbm and others that the only possible was for hunting to save itself now is to move away from using fox scent.

That is not what I have said at all. We are all free to interpret things the way we want but my words are clear I think; the interpretation is yours.

 

[Sandstone1]

No matter how people dress it up, they use fox scent because they want to hunt fox.

Completely agree with this. Its obvious what goes on and its come to the time when it will not be tolerated. Hunting with hounds has been banned for years but they have just carried on as if they are above the law. I feel that now with mobile phones, drones and monitors and sabs that film the goings on it just can not continue.

 

[Gallop_Away]

As I wrote on the shooting hounds thread, if hunting is ever to have a place in this modern world it needs to change with the times.
For those of us who trail hunt legally this verdict is incredibly disappointing as we have been let down massively and thrown under the bus with the illegal hunts in the eyes of the public.
We all now need to stick together to turn things around and prove that we can follow the law. We also need to condemn illegal hunting as LOUDLY as possible.
Palo has put the beauty of trail hunting across so well in their previous posts. It can still have a place in this world but things need to change for that to happen. I hope this will be the wakeup call hunting needs!

 

[Sandstone1]

So you're still in denial about the fact that MH was encouraging illegal hunting? It was clear as day, as the judge agreed.

Good grief. You really do have your head in the sand.

I fully agree with ycbm and others that the only possible was for hunting to save itself now is to move away from using fox scent.

As I wrote on the shooting hounds thread, if hunting is ever to have a place in this modern world it needs to change with the times.
For those of us who trail hunt legally this verdict is incredibly disappointing as we have been let down massively and thrown under the bus with the illegal hunts in the eyes of the public.
We all now need to stick together to turn things around and prove that we can follow the law. We also need to condemn illegal hunting as LOUDLY as possible.
Palo has put the beauty of trail hunting across so well in their previous posts. It can still have a place in this world but things need to change for that to happen. I hope this will be the wakeup call hunting needs!

Although I have no issue with genuine trail hunting, im not sure it can go on. Firstly farmers in lots of cases only allow the hunt on their land to control foxes. If that is fully and completely stopped I cant see that many landowners are going to want the disruption and damage caused by trail hunting. The upset and stress caused by the hunt to livestock plus the damage to land is considerable. Problems with hunts trespassing and even killing pets plus the increasing lack of land due to increased housing etc will bring the end to all hunting.