Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
Urgh what the hell is wrong with some people, that's awful. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Hunting is in a spot of bother
- Thread starter Tiddlypom
- Start date
Urgh what the hell is wrong with some people, that's awful. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
I'd be wanting my money back after the fancy pants defending QC allowed the accused to put forward character witnesses from a hunt with a tarnished background (the Cottesmore). Though, to be fair, most of the big name packs have had 'issues' of one sort or another.
The prosecution presumably simply googled the Cottesmore Hunt and dug out the readily available info about a terrierman from that pack being convicted of digging out a badger sett on a hunting day in 2015. Prosecution then proceeded to completely trip up a main defence character witness, a master of the Cottesmore. When this was put to him the witness initially said "I can't remember what he pleaded or what the case was". Prompting the judge to ask 'You have no idea if a man employed by your hunt was convicted?'
Later another master had to admit, after some blustering, that despite the conviction, the terrierman is still employed by the Cottesmore 'though not by me'.
Some character witnesses. More like dodgy, evasive and shifty.
The prosecution presumably simply googled the Cottesmore Hunt and dug out the readily available info about a terrierman from that pack being convicted of digging out a badger sett on a hunting day in 2015. Prosecution then proceeded to completely trip up a main defence character witness, a master of the Cottesmore. When this was put to him the witness initially said "I can't remember what he pleaded or what the case was". Prompting the judge to ask 'You have no idea if a man employed by your hunt was convicted?'
Later another master had to admit, after some blustering, that despite the conviction, the terrierman is still employed by the Cottesmore 'though not by me'.
Some character witnesses. More like dodgy, evasive and shifty.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Update from the Hunting Office:-
Hunting Office Statement
"Yesterday, Mark Hankinson resigned as Director of the MFHA. Mr Hankinson is still considering an appeal, however, following Friday's judgment and considering the length of time any appeal process may take, he decided that he was unable to continue in the role. The Hunting Office team and the wider hunting community thank him for his many years of dedication to hunting with hounds".
Published 19th October 2021
I think this is, as far as it can be, good news. I hope now that changes, improvements and a new direction can be found. Some people feel that MH has been the fall guy for the senior leadership at the MFHA but whatever the context of that this had to be the outcome I think.
Hunting Office Statement
"Yesterday, Mark Hankinson resigned as Director of the MFHA. Mr Hankinson is still considering an appeal, however, following Friday's judgment and considering the length of time any appeal process may take, he decided that he was unable to continue in the role. The Hunting Office team and the wider hunting community thank him for his many years of dedication to hunting with hounds".
Published 19th October 2021
I think this is, as far as it can be, good news. I hope now that changes, improvements and a new direction can be found. Some people feel that MH has been the fall guy for the senior leadership at the MFHA but whatever the context of that this had to be the outcome I think.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
It was inevitable. The only surprise is that it has taken this long.
He ought to be the first of many, of course. The whole organisation needs root and branch reform, but I'm not holding my breath.
He ought to be the first of many, of course. The whole organisation needs root and branch reform, but I'm not holding my breath.
palo1
Well-Known Member
For once I agree with you!! For public confidence and that of hunt staff I do think there needs to be a complete clearout. I don't think that will happen to the extent it may need to and I am not sure what Andrew Oscborne will bring to his role but at least, at the very least, MH's resignation signals some recognition of things needing to change and be seen to change. The MFHA is not the best beloved body of hunt staff - there is a real sense of shame, frustration and absolute outrage in the grass roots as those people feel they have more invested in the future of hunting than the MFHA. I seriously hope that a team that is far more in touch and more committed to open communication and real governance is put in place to start with.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Plus if the new team could commit to ensuring that all illegal hunting and practices stop henceforth, it would be a bonus 
.
.palo1
Well-Known Member
Plus if the new team could commit to ensuring that all illegal hunting and practices stop henceforth, it would be a bonus
If appropriate governance were in place then that would happen.
Sossigpoker
Well-Known Member
Don't hold your breath as you will die waitingPlus if the new team could commit to ensuring that all illegal hunting and practices stop henceforth, it would be a bonus
palo1
Well-Known Member
Reports of Trail Hunting confound sabs in Cheshire...(from their own sab reports: Cheshire Hunt Saboteurs)
We had a fair few friends out with us today whilst out keeping an eye on the Cheshire Hounds; Stockport Monitors, Midlands Wildlife Action, and independents.
Cheshire Hounds met at Edgley Lodge Farm in Haughton, at 2.30pm.
With a large field of riders gathered, we were invited to watch the first trail being laid. Hounds then came into the field and quickly found the trail, speaking as they followed the line.
There were a lot of jumps and photo opportunities for the field today, and no attempt to lose us.
With the hunt staying in the Haughton area, we were able to stay with the hounds throughout, although with many new and young riders, they were only out for two hours.
Following them back to their meet point, we waited for them to pack up to ensure there was no sneaking off.
All in all, another day of transparent trail laying, trails followed, and no active hunting. Exactly what we like to see.
We heard that our old frenemy, Volvo Man Derek sadly passed away earlier this year - he was always great at inadvertently letting us know where the hunt were, RIP Derek.
Whilst some of us were with Cheshire Hounds, a few others had already been over to see Cheshire Forest in Over Alderley with Cheshire Against Blood Sports and Midlands Wildlife Action.
Unusually, they also laid trails, and appeared to follow them - who’d have thought it?! Two hunts, both trail laying, and all keen to be transparent.
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We had a fair few friends out with us today whilst out keeping an eye on the Cheshire Hounds; Stockport Monitors, Midlands Wildlife Action, and independents.
Cheshire Hounds met at Edgley Lodge Farm in Haughton, at 2.30pm.
With a large field of riders gathered, we were invited to watch the first trail being laid. Hounds then came into the field and quickly found the trail, speaking as they followed the line.
There were a lot of jumps and photo opportunities for the field today, and no attempt to lose us.
With the hunt staying in the Haughton area, we were able to stay with the hounds throughout, although with many new and young riders, they were only out for two hours.
Following them back to their meet point, we waited for them to pack up to ensure there was no sneaking off.
All in all, another day of transparent trail laying, trails followed, and no active hunting. Exactly what we like to see.
We heard that our old frenemy, Volvo Man Derek sadly passed away earlier this year - he was always great at inadvertently letting us know where the hunt were, RIP Derek.
Whilst some of us were with Cheshire Hounds, a few others had already been over to see Cheshire Forest in Over Alderley with Cheshire Against Blood Sports and Midlands Wildlife Action.
Unusually, they also laid trails, and appeared to follow them - who’d have thought it?! Two hunts, both trail laying, and all keen to be transparent.
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Koweyka
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Reports of Trail Hunting confound sabs in Cheshire...(from their own sab reports: Cheshire Hunt Saboteurs)
We had a fair few friends out with us today whilst out keeping an eye on the Cheshire Hounds; Stockport Monitors, Midlands Wildlife Action, and independents.
Cheshire Hounds met at Edgley Lodge Farm in Haughton, at 2.30pm.
With a large field of riders gathered, we were invited to watch the first trail being laid. Hounds then came into the field and quickly found the trail, speaking as they followed the line.
There were a lot of jumps and photo opportunities for the field today, and no attempt to lose us.
With the hunt staying in the Haughton area, we were able to stay with the hounds throughout, although with many new and young riders, they were only out for two hours.
Following them back to their meet point, we waited for them to pack up to ensure there was no sneaking off.
All in all, another day of transparent trail laying, trails followed, and no active hunting. Exactly what we like to see.
We heard that our old frenemy, Volvo Man Derek sadly passed away earlier this year - he was always great at inadvertently letting us know where the hunt were, RIP Derek.
Whilst some of us were with Cheshire Hounds, a few others had already been over to see Cheshire Forest in Over Alderley with Cheshire Against Blood Sports and Midlands Wildlife Action.
Unusually, they also laid trails, and appeared to follow them - who’d have thought it?! Two hunts, both trail laying, and all keen to be transparent.
=AZVLBiYjCX4afnIPVt-EKK2BYOUb5fuBmCANmK_HoYNq-6XuWmBV3qtXbfWZJLI4ENRzgAyFksTlGum-JY-f6-T0STJsEdqsW9p5Xp99pUhNYy4oiCkY4EFXQZNSuzZipoR6v4IccEfaycPu95QmNp-Z&__tn__=*bH-R']+6
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Don’t get over excited it’s taken years and years of hard work by monitors and sabs and the deaths of many foxes and dwindling fields and loss of support from landowners to get the Cheshire Hunts to even attempt to trial. All the hunts in Cheshire blatantly hunted foxes and it wasn’t out of the desire to no longer break the law that forced this action, they really had no choice.
BeckyFlowers
Well-Known Member
It's a great start, let's hope it continues (and other hunts start/continue to act this way).Reports of Trail Hunting confound sabs in Cheshire...(from their own sab reports: Cheshire Hunt Saboteurs)
We had a fair few friends out with us today whilst out keeping an eye on the Cheshire Hounds; Stockport Monitors, Midlands Wildlife Action, and independents.
Cheshire Hounds met at Edgley Lodge Farm in Haughton, at 2.30pm.
With a large field of riders gathered, we were invited to watch the first trail being laid. Hounds then came into the field and quickly found the trail, speaking as they followed the line.
There were a lot of jumps and photo opportunities for the field today, and no attempt to lose us.
With the hunt staying in the Haughton area, we were able to stay with the hounds throughout, although with many new and young riders, they were only out for two hours.
Following them back to their meet point, we waited for them to pack up to ensure there was no sneaking off.
All in all, another day of transparent trail laying, trails followed, and no active hunting. Exactly what we like to see.
We heard that our old frenemy, Volvo Man Derek sadly passed away earlier this year - he was always great at inadvertently letting us know where the hunt were, RIP Derek.
Whilst some of us were with Cheshire Hounds, a few others had already been over to see Cheshire Forest in Over Alderley with Cheshire Against Blood Sports and Midlands Wildlife Action.
Unusually, they also laid trails, and appeared to follow them - who’d have thought it?! Two hunts, both trail laying, and all keen to be transparent.
=AZVLBiYjCX4afnIPVt-EKK2BYOUb5fuBmCANmK_HoYNq-6XuWmBV3qtXbfWZJLI4ENRzgAyFksTlGum-JY-f6-T0STJsEdqsW9p5Xp99pUhNYy4oiCkY4EFXQZNSuzZipoR6v4IccEfaycPu95QmNp-Z&__tn__=*bH-R']+6
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Jellymoon
Well-Known Member
I agree, beautifully put.
Jellymoon
Well-Known Member
Lovely to hear and fully in support of this.
Jellymoon
Well-Known Member
What a nasty and ungenerous comment. Isn’t this what you wanted to happen?
Jellymoon
Well-Known Member
Yep, same. I love hunting but want to do it with a clear conscience.
Koweyka
Well-Known Member
Well to be perfectly honest I would rather all trail hunts were shut down. The Cheshire Hunt have had to change not because they wanted to change, there is a huge difference in the reasoning, they have attempted to trail for a short while now, not always perfectly but yes of course anything that mitigates foxes and wildlife deaths is a good thing.
Jellymoon
Well-Known Member
Why do you want all trail hunts to be shut down? If they aren’t killing foxes, and are within the law?
Koweyka
Well-Known Member
Because trail hunting for many many hunts is just a cover for fox hunting, they do kill foxes and they don’t act within the law.
With the guilty verdict of Mark Hankinson and the very damning verdict by the judge on several others speaking at the webinars, it confirmed everything the “Anti’s” have been saying for years, it was actually equally amazing and disgusting at the same time how many pro hunt people have come out and admitted that fox hunting was still happening under the trail hunt smokescreen, people should have been speaking out years ago instead of allowing it to continue. But hunting folk didn’t speak out.
If you do want trail hunting to continue and to get any form of trust then it will need a massive overhaul, one you need to stop using animal based scents, stop laying “Trails” into areas that foxes live and claim accident, agree to independent monitoring, publish the meets and routes. Set up a governing body that actually governs and takes robust action against those hunts that resist acting within the law. Lose the terrier men.
Until all of that is done every trail hunt should be treated with suspicion.
BeckyFlowers
Well-Known Member
At some point a line has to be drawn in the sand though, and now seems to be an appropriate point in time. Let the hunts prove or disprove themselves and then go from there.
Jellymoon
Well-Known Member
Ok
I think saying you want all trail hunts to shut down, whether they are doing it properly or not, suggests you might be someone who is not solely motivated by animal welfare.
Ok, and intelligent response, and I agree with you. I think transparency and communication is the way forward. But you let yourself down by saying you want all trail hunts to shut down - if you want supporters within the farming and hunting community you need to present yourselves as people who genuinely care about foxes, because many of us think of you as people who simply want to have a pop at ‘posh’ people on horses.
I think saying you want all trail hunts to shut down, whether they are doing it properly or not, suggests you might be someone who is not solely motivated by animal welfare.
Koweyka
Well-Known Member
I have been a hunt monitor for many many years, I have seen some despicable acts of cruelty towards animals and particularly foxes, I have literally picked up the pieces of foxes, have been subjected to assaults and violence, had my family threatened, my home targeted, I have a police marker on my address, but I carry on doing it because of my love for wildlife and my hatred of cruelty and fox hunting is cruel.
If we wanted to have a pop at “Posh people” there are far less dangerous ways of doing it. I don’t consider horse owners to be posh, I have many friends who work their socks off to keep their horses, it absolutely is not a class war and never has been.
We actually have the support of many farmers and landowners, and are “Agents of the land” for many people so we can make sure the hunts don’t trespass on their property.
But the fact is that trail hunts all over the country have turned a blind eye to what other hunts have been doing and as such I believe that saying nothing to stop this evil law breaking practice is almost as bad as participating in it. They should be treated the same way and until all the above is put in place, I do believe they should not be allowed out until proper transparent regulation is in place. The law breaking hunts have tarred you all with the same brush.
I would love to know why people never spoke up when they knew foxes were being hunted, this is a genuine question to all of you, why ? I have seen many people say on here they knew hunts were breaking the law but why were authorities not informed, if not the police then why not the MFHA ?
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
You come on this forum purely to have arguments. The words you choose frequently cross the boundary of passionate debate, e.g. calling someone "mentally disturbed" simply for having an opposing viewpoint to you. And yet you think me describing you as rude is "aggressive name calling"
?
palo1
Well-Known Member
Before I reply I want to stress to you that I am only involved in hunting within the law and I do not want to be involved in illegal hunting. In answer to your question:-
I think if you genuinely understood how hunting and trail hunting is conducted you might find an answer to your question. Most people who hunted before the ban will testify that very rarely did they see a fox and even rarer to personally see 'a kill'. That is because of the way that fox hunting worked and because of the way that in both fox hunting (pre-ban in the UK and in other places still) and trail hunting the the field is generally kept out of the way of the huntsman and whips - because the 'sport' of hunting (fox, trail, drag, coyote - in the USA and bloodhound) was and still remains to be about following hounds and crossing the country.
There is still a huge amount of misunderstanding, even from experienced and educated sabs about some elements of trail hunting (and fox hunting before it). I have read far too many examples of ignorance or 'made-up' stuff on sab reports to be convinced this is not the case.
Now that people are trail hunting I imagine a great many hunt followers would genuinely not know for certain if and exactly how trails were being followed. Posters on here have explained their own experience of this. Trail laying has always been maintained as discreetly as possible, with the location, distance etc of trails generally withheld from all but the trail-layers. In some cases it is far more open and obvious but not always as different teams have different views about the best way to maintain hunting traditions. That is in no small part because of the deep resentment around the Hunting Act and the legislation that has meant that trail hunting is intended to mimic, as closely as possible, the original activity. The Hunting Act certainly contributed to the current dire situation. As you know there is anger about that on both sides.
As for those hunting against the law, I believe that landowners, farmers and hunters are all complicit in that as well as, in some places, an attitude that the exemptions to the law (accidents etc) are entirely legitimate 'get arounds'. For example farmers on the Welsh hills, parts of the North (fells etc) and other uplands want foxes to be killed, many want the hunt because of the community element and because they resent, very deeply, being told that they can't do what they have always done and are not convinced that this is a 'wrong' thing to do; in spite of the law. The Hunting Act and the Burns Report as well as other research and reports never convinced some people that fox hunting was, in fact, cruel. Hill farmers have long campaigned to have exemptions to the Hunting Act for fox control. In some places (including the Welsh Government for example) there is really no consensus that hunting with hounds is not the best way to deal with that. Trail hunting can be difficult in that hunters have too much to lose to hunt foxes or see the best way as working within the law but landowners want the opposite and feel that they should have control over what happens on their land. I have heard those conversations with hunters about 'Why the hell are you not hunting properly? Hunters and hunts can be under pressure to disregard the law in a number of ways. In my case, our farmers and landowners are happy enough to let us 'play' at hunting on the hills because trail laying doesn't cause any damage to open ground, because it means they have a bit of company/a change of scene and visitors. Some people still hope and believe the Hunting Act might be repealed (such is their resentment about it). I do not think the Hunting Act will be repealed btw! We are clear about trail laying (which is blooming hard work) and appreciate what a privelege it is to be hosted by farmers and landowners to do that as a leisure activity.
I suspect that some followers of hunts that break the law, regardless of how they feel about it, don't want to report any illegal activity because of how difficult that is to prove and how disruptive and divisive that may be in their community. For some people, the death of foxes is NOT their primary concern, especially perhaps when they are involved in businesses such as farming where the death of animals is an accepted part of their life. Some of those same people will be conflicted about killing foxes for other reasons and won't see the trouble that reporting illegal hunting brings as worthwhile, valuable or constructive in terms of welfare, environment or anything else.
I know that is repugnant to you and I understand that as well as appreciate legitimate concerns about the law but I am trying to be honest with you. There are people who break the law in all sorts of ways, for reasons best known to themselves - their friends, neighbours and colleagues know but generally don't report them.
Koweyka
Well-Known Member
^Sigh^ We clearly have completely opposing moral compasses, because I believe the vast majority of people would regard someone hunting and killing an animal in a barbaric way for fun is being perpetrated by someone mentally disturbed. Clearly you don’t agree and that’s your prerogative.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
Your comment is at worst uneducated and at best blinkered. Do you not give consideration to all employment that is linked to hunting ? If you or your family were involved in breeding horses, dealing in horses, shoeing horses, giving any of the many facets of health care to horses or providing lorry services, saddlery services, feed provision, livery provision etc etc, you might have a more balanced and sensible view.
Koweyka
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your reply Palo, that does go someway to explaining some of it and to be fair I hadn’t considered hunts being pressured into law breaking.
The vast majority of hunts I have attended, they didn’t even pretend to lay a trail, we would be in the area many hours before the meets and no trails are laid and that’s the crux of it, the difference between hunts like yours and the ones that are still now not even trying to hunt within the law.
If you want hunting to continue then it has to be sorted from the inside out, I do believe you understand that. If you want trail hunting to continue then you need to find some strong voices from within.
Every single aspect of it needs to ensure the likelihood of a fox being hunted is mitigated, even this week foxes have been hunted and killed and if you want any sort of public respect or support that has to stop.
Koweyka
Well-Known Member
So basically what you are saying that every single person that rides out with a hunt is going to slaughter their horse if hunting was stopped ? Incredible what you appear to be insinuating because that’s the only way any of the above will be impacted even slightly. You don’t have to kill to hunt.
You see, I don’t hunt yet my horses ( shock horror yes I actually own many horses) they still have a farrier, get fed, see a vet, use a lorry if they need medical treatment in house at the vets so I would say my view was pretty balanced…..
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
And I say it isn't balanced and I did not state yuo have to kill to hunt. I suggest you look at the numbers of packs in the UK, the size of the fields and do the maths for those providing the services previously mentioned. Hunting of all types, foot packs included are a substantial income for a lot of industries.
Your view is one that suggests limited understanding of hunting and associated activities. Limited understanding of land management and the rural economy.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Maybe I'm in the wrong locations but re. economic impact for those that keep horses, I know very few who hunt, and even fewer that only keep their horses to hunt and wouldnt do otherwise. Fields have always been pretty small too apart from joint meets.
Koweyka
Well-Known Member
Ok please explain yourself clearly and tell me why if trail hunting is properly regulated and hunting within the law, nobody has ever mentioned drag/bloodhounds/clean boot hunting should be stopped, why these industries will be impacted ? Unless all those horses suddenly vanish they will still need all of the services would they not ?
Very often I see very small fields, you are in the minority of horse ownership.