Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Rowreach]

I was someone who loved hunting, attended the protest rallies and was as gutted as the next when the ban came in to affect.

But my view is now completely changed. It’s not based on any science- it doesn’t need to be. Just plain old common sense and morality.

It really isn’t complicated ?

Ditto.

 

[Sandstone1]

I certainly didn't say that @ycbm. I was just presenting the views and ideas of those vets that produced the report.

@paddy555
Sorry but I do not need to read a report to know that hunting with hounds is predominantly for the sport and fun of chasing a live animal. Call it what you like, make as many reasons as as you like. The majority of people are against hunting.

I agree that most people are against hunting and I would also say that most people have no clue what hunting (legal and pre-ban) actually involves/involved. (Some posters on here do understand pre-ban hunting and have informed views but far from all posters). Unfortunately if you decide to make up your mind about things without being informed that significantly lessens the strength of your argument. I don't want to chase a live animal - I do want to go trail hunting within the existing law. I don't like being told what exactly that activity is, by people who clearly don't know and who just want to exert their own, uninformed opinion. I thought it might be interesting and useful to explore some of the hackneyed expressions and opinions about hunting generally with some of the research around that, produced by professional vets. Of course you don't have to listen to what they say - I assume you pick and choose to listen what your vet says on other occasions so that your opinions are always right.
Echo chambers don't ever provide answers...

Sorry but I do understand and I have been hunting but Im afraid I still dont agree. One of the common excuses used by the hunting fraternity is Oh but you do not understand.... Well yes I do but I still do not agree

 

[HashRouge]

That's an interesting point for debate - I've no doubt there are some physiological similarities present, but really and truly a hunted animal, or a dog being frightened of fireworks for example, bears absolutely no relationship to a hunted human or a person living through the Blitz, because cognisance of a quantifiable threat exists for a person in a way it can't possibly exist for a fox.

Does it really make that much difference? The animals in the scenarios you give are still frightened. Does full understanding of the threat make the fear more significant? I'd say that's utterly unprovable. Ultimately we have no idea what fear feels like to an animal, we simply know that they experience it.

 

[paddy555]

I hope that the current situation does not result in all hunting folk being tarred with the 'illegal' brush, I really do as the mechanism of hunting (within the law) remains uniquely valuable to the countryside in a number of ways.

I don't get this. Hunting within the law as I understand it is following a trail, no animals get hunted.
I live in a hunting area. Leaving aside now due to Covid, a lot of lorries and trailers drive into the area from afar which cannot help climate change. They park and cause damage to grass car parks or the side of the road on the common. If they meet at a pub then it will generate some trade. Most often it is at a private house/farm so no benefit for the local traders. Then they go off for the day. The car followers then block the narrow lanes and seem either incapable of reversing or unwilling to do so. Heaven help any fire engine or ambulance that wants to get through. Then the car followers drive round in endless circles trying to find the hunt, more emissions. Poor old climate change.

They then ride around the countryside for several hours. We know exactly where they have been from the mud and grass they have cut up and damaged with their horses hooves.

Then everyone goes home and more emissions for climate change.
Then later that night/the following morning the hunt staff travel out again to collect the odd hound that went astray. More emissions.
On a bad day hounds may have gone through someone's garden, upset or eaten their cat or just run through non hunter's fields upsetting their animals.

For us that has been an average day's hunting.

So, which part of that is valuable to the countryside?

 

[Wishfilly]

No-one has argued that animals don't feel fear or distress though - just that animals don't have the same notions of fear as humans, that fear is essential for a wild animal's health and survival and that fear is beneficial within an ecosystem - just read the report to see where these things are said and what they actually mean.

You may feel that people are breaking the law/ hunting outside the law - there are convictions for that for sure, though there are more for sab/anti-hunt violence. However 2 wrongs don't make a right. I hope that the current situation does not result in all hunting folk being tarred with the 'illegal' brush, I really do as the mechanism of hunting (within the law) remains uniquely valuable to the countryside in a number of ways.

I think it is extremely likely that if hunting is completely banned then other horse sports, fishing, shooting and eventually pet ownership and land access will be contested and then removed from our culture and society. That may be seen as progress but I don't have to agree with that or facilitate it.

But the point about there being more convictions for anti-hunt violence sort of makes the point I was making- people feel the law is being unequally applied. And when you have ex- police officers and a lord discussing breaking the law, I can completely understand why they feel that way. I am sure not all people who hunt break the law, and many packs hunt both safely and legally. But some do, and they seem to get away with it. Especially just post ban, there seemed to be little apetite to enforce the law.

FWIW, I KNOW one of my local hunts is breaking the law re lockdown- which makes me believe the people who say they also illegally hunt foxes on purpose.

I agree that there are some people who are anti-hunting who are also anti ridden horses in general. I think there are a lot who are anti shooting too. However, I also think there are a lot of people who find hunting with hounds uniquely archaic and abhorent, and don't actually care about other horse sports. I think it's a mistake to think all the people who are anti hunting hold such extreme views.

My personal opinion is that a well run program of shooting would probably be more humane and better for the foxes, but I have no issue with genuine trail hunting/drag hunting/bloodhounds etc.

I think this seminar specifically comes close to undermining the rule of law, and I think that is a major problem. That has nothing to do with whether hunting is cruel or not, it is illegal, and the law should be equally applied to everyone- when a sitting member of the house of lords appears to endorse law breaking, that is a problem.

I also have an issue with hunts who let their hounds run out of control endangering pets, livestock and human life.

 

[Rowreach]

Does it really make that much difference? The animals in the scenarios you give are still frightened. Does full understanding of the threat make the fear more significant? I'd say that's utterly unprovable. Ultimately we have no idea what fear feels like to an animal, we simply know that they experience it.

I don't know why you are getting stroppy with me, it was just, I thought, an interesting point of discussion. If you read all my other comments you'd know chasing foxes isn't something I condone.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Days when the hunt are here are a complete PITA, and it is vital that I am notified (doing ok in that respect now, though much more notice would help a lot).

Horses done and brought in for the day, dog walked, then stay in and wait.

The car followers are actually much more hassle than the hunt proper. Hunt vehicles parking blocking people’s drives and gateways, on blind bends etc etc. At least we don’t have all the antis and the police as well, now.

*coughs* one of the packs that I followed pre ban may well have been the one that comes past Paddy555’s place. I hope we were not a nuisance in those days, we were always polite to everyone we met.

 

[Wishfilly]

I don't get this. Hunting within the law as I understand it is following a trail, no animals get hunted.
I live in a hunting area. Leaving aside now due to Covid, a lot of lorries and trailers drive into the area from afar which cannot help climate change. They park and cause damage to grass car parks or the side of the road on the common. If they meet at a pub then it will generate some trade. Most often it is at a private house/farm so no benefit for the local traders. Then they go off for the day. The car followers then block the narrow lanes and seem either incapable of reversing or unwilling to do so. Heaven help any fire engine or ambulance that wants to get through. Then the car followers drive round in endless circles trying to find the hunt, more emissions. Poor old climate change.

They then ride around the countryside for several hours. We know exactly where they have been from the mud and grass they have cut up and damaged with their horses hooves.

Then everyone goes home and more emissions for climate change.
Then later that night/the following morning the hunt staff travel out again to collect the odd hound that went astray. More emissions.
On a bad day hounds may have gone through someone's garden, upset or eaten their cat or just run through non hunter's fields upsetting their animals.

For us that has been an average day's hunting.

So, which part of that is valuable to the countryside?

TBF, one of the hunts in this county does a lot for the rural community in terms of organising things like point to points, hunter trials, shows etc which I think do benefit the local economy. The others seem to do a lot less.

I suppose also, there are people who wouldn't own horses if they couldn't hunt, and they create business for farriers, tack shops, feed merchants etc, the same as the rest of us who own horses.

But a drag hunt or bloodhound pack could fulfil the same functions. There's nothing about illegal hunting that specifically benefits the rural economy.

 

[hollyandivy123]

No-one has argued that animals don't feel fear or distress though - just that animals don't have the same notions of fear as humans, that fear is essential for a wild animal's health and survival and that fear is beneficial within an ecosystem - just read the report to see where these things are said and what they actually mean.

You may feel that people are breaking the law/ hunting outside the law - there are convictions for that for sure, though there are more for sab/anti-hunt violence. However 2 wrongs don't make a right. I hope that the current situation does not result in all hunting folk being tarred with the 'illegal' brush, I really do as the mechanism of hunting (within the law) remains uniquely valuable to the countryside in a number of ways.

I think it is extremely likely that if hunting is completely banned then other horse sports, fishing, shooting and eventually pet ownership and land access will be contested and then removed from our culture and society. That may be seen as progress but I don't have to agree with that or facilitate it.

would you not say training fox hounds to follow a scent trail of fox is going to lead to "accidental" incidences of fox hunting..............?

 

[Tiddlypom]

would you not say training fox hounds to follow a scent trail of fox is going to lead to "accidental" incidences of fox hunting..............?

That was a crazy concession, allowing fox scent to be used post ban.

 

[ycbm]

Point to point qualifying by hunting is a complete joke. Does it still happen?

In my experience, people who want to do amateur racing will organise amateur racing whether there is a hunt or not. What they won't, ime, generally do is risk their very valuable racers doing any genuine hunting. The point to point qualifiers could usually be found tootling along quietly a long way behind the hounds, for the minimum time possible to get the required signature on their hunt qualification card.

So you can strike that one off as a benefit to the local community from hunting.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I don’t think that pointers actually have to go hunting any more to qualify?

Point to pointing is way removed from its origins.

 

[paddy555]

*coughs* one of the packs that I followed pre ban may well have been the one that comes past Paddy555’s place. I hope we were not a nuisance in those days, we were always polite to everyone we met.

*coughs back* hmmm! a lot of my dislike came from the activities of the SD. I don't expect that was your hunt tho'.

 

[paddy555]

So you can strike that one off as a benefit to the local community from hunting.

not to worry, I expect we will hear about the rest soon.

 

[ycbm]

That's an interesting point for debate - I've no doubt there are some physiological similarities present, but really and truly a hunted animal, or a dog being frightened of fireworks for example, bears absolutely no relationship to a hunted human or a person living through the Blitz, because cognisance of a quantifiable threat exists for a person in a way it can't possibly exist for a fox.

I would argue the other way, I think, RR. That inability to quantify the threat would make an animal more fearful more of the time, not less. There is wasted energy from running when it doesn't need to, but I would have thought that the system would err on the side that the downside to running is less than the potential downside of staying put, and cause sufficient fear to make the animal run.

In the case of foxes, of course, we are also talking about a predator animal at the top of the pyramid which wouldn't be expected to feel fear much at all. And the deliberate creation of that fear by hunters. So even if the fear was less than if the hunted animal is a human, it still seems pretty indefensible.

I know you are against hunting; like you I found this an interesting thing to analyse.
.

 

[Rowreach]

Point to point qualifying by hunting is a complete joke. Does it still happen?

In my experience, people who want to do amateur racing will organise amateur racing whether there is a hunt or not. What they won't, ime, generally do is risk their very valuable racers doing any genuine hunting. The point to point qualifiers could usually be found tootling along quietly a long way behind the hounds, for the minimum time possible to get the required signature on their hunt qualification card.

So you can strike that one off as a benefit to the local community from hunting.

It was usually myself and a friend boinging along causing chaos, and the masters were only too happy to sign our cards shortly after leaving the meet (if we stopped bouncing long enough) and get rid of us.

 

[Tiddlypom]

*coughs back* hmmm! a lot of my dislike came from the activities of the SD. I don't expect that was your hunt tho'.

Whoops .

Though it was only one of seven packs that I have hunted with. They were well behaved in my day...

There certainly were many fewer car followers back in the day, hardly any, in fact.

 

[GoldenWillow]

I've just read that in our county the National Trust, National Park Authority and United Utilities has suspended hunting over their land because of this.

 

[Michen]

Point to point qualifying by hunting is a complete joke. Does it still happen?

In my experience, people who want to do amateur racing will organise amateur racing whether there is a hunt or not. What they won't, ime, generally do is risk their very valuable racers doing any genuine hunting. The point to point qualifiers could usually be found tootling along quietly a long way behind the hounds, for the minimum time possible to get the required signature on their hunt qualification card.

So you can strike that one off as a benefit to the local community from hunting.

Well, if you know of Grands Crus, who at the time my Godfather (his owner) had been offered a life changing amount of money for, he regularly went hunting even when racing.

 

[oldie48]

I have no time for hunts that are breaking the law but I feel very sorry for those responsible hunts that are trail laying and operating legally who will be affected by this. For many riders the opportunity to ride off road, enjoy a sociable time with friends and have a good blast are limited. It's not my cup of tea, too old and too windy, but I have no desire to stop others provided they do it legally. I have lots of friends who hunt and I have never thought they did it because they enjoyed the "kill" and pre ban, to my somewhat untutored eyes, when I saw the field they were generally miles away from the huntsman and hounds having a separate jolly. The question of whether hunting is the best way to manage the fox population is totally immaterial, the ban will never be reversed but foxes do need to be controlled as do rats and other vermin. My terrier will happily dispatch a rat, stable cats will dispense with mice often after playing with them for some time, foxes leave corpses in my garden and certainly don't just hunt to eat. It is certainly a natural thing for animals to hunt and some do it in packs without human interaction so I am struggling a little bit to understand the cruelty aspect. When I lived in the city we saw more foxes than we do here in the country, they killed local cats and one got into a neighbour's rabbits and killed the lot leaving mutilated bodies for the children to find. Nature can be pretty cruel.

 

[Stressymummy]

A reminder of what some of the delightful, country based, animal welfare at heart hunting lot get up to.

Kimblewick Hunt, New Years Day 2019.

Kimblewick Hunt: Men sentenced for releasing fox 'into hunt path' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-50562260

Covert cctv filming, no antis present. Fox prodded out of a drain then pulled out by its tail just as hounds approach. The stooges who did the prodding got suspended prison sentences, but the brains who pulled their strings did not.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/kimblewick-hunt-pair-found-guilty.781967/

 

[Stressymummy]

The hunt likes to have something to chase so its in their interest to increase numbers, makes the pest control element somewhat redundant! Pro hunters will say Oh you do not understand the ways of the countryside. I understand they just enjoy the sport of chasing and killing a fox. It would be far more honest of them just to admit that.

This forum is called HORSE AND HOUND !!!
If you don't like hunting why are you here ?

 

[Fred66]

This is a subject that polarises views.
It starts with why was hunting banned ? Was it because the independent evidence based report that was commissioned indicated that hunting foxes with hounds was cruel ? To which the answer is no, the report indicated that in the main it was one of the least cruel methods. It was the most naturally selective method of population control and that with licensing would potentially be the best method of population control. Cruelty doesn’t come from whether the act is enjoyed or not by others, it is the act itself.
Many MPs have since admitted that they saw it as a class war where they could score a win.
Laws brought in based on spite and against the evidence are bound to be resented.

Having said that the law was brought in and most hunts have adapted and are doing their best to follow the law regarding laying and following trails.
Despite this many have started to get more and more anti hunt groups follow them with the aim of provoking, intimidating, threatening people (including children) whilst disrupting the hunting of laid trails. Their actions directly contribute to the reduction in control of hounds by the hunt staff and quite often result in the very result they purport to be trying to stop. Some of these people are law abiding and polite and are there to watch to gather evidence if the hunts do break the law, but more and more are not interested in whether hunts are following the law they are just wanting to spoil people’s days in anyway they can. In what other area would this be acceptable?

 

[ester]

yes sandstone why have you been here for 10 years lol

I love it when new users SHOUT

 

[rextherobber]

This is a subject that polarises views.
It starts with why was hunting banned ? Was it because the independent evidence based report that was commissioned indicated that hunting foxes with hounds was cruel ? To which the answer is no, the report indicated that in the main it was one of the least cruel methods. It was the most naturally selective method of population control and that with licensing would potentially be the best method of population control. Cruelty doesn’t come from whether the act is enjoyed or not by others, it is the act itself.
Many MPs have since admitted that they saw it as a class war where they could score a win.
Laws brought in based on spite and against the evidence are bound to be resented.

Having said that the law was brought in and most hunts have adapted and are doing their best to follow the law regarding laying and following trails.
Despite this many have started to get more and more anti hunt groups follow them with the aim of provoking, intimidating, threatening people (including children) whilst disrupting the hunting of laid trails. Their actions directly contribute to the reduction in control of hounds by the hunt staff and quite often result in the very result they purport to be trying to stop. Some of these people are law abiding and polite and are there to watch to gather evidence if the hunts do break the law, but more and more are not interested in whether hunts are following the law they are just wanting to spoil people’s days in anyway they can. In what other area would this be acceptable?

Hunting is banned because the majority of people in the country want it to be, why should this activity be allowed to continue when it is both illegal, and disruptive to people trying to live and work in the countryside? I have been prevented from driving down a lane, when I was on my way to work, by hunt supporters who presumably thought I was an Anti, I have had to return home from work to ensure my livestock is safe when I have discovered the hunt is in the area....The report is undeniably biased...And on the flip side, the less well reported cases of Hunt employed "heavies" activities towards anyone they perceive to be an Anti, blocking roads, dangerous driving, beating up, harrassing, a young lad actually died after being hit by a hunt supporters vehicle
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-driver-rams-hunt-saboteurs-pickup-truck.html
I know, it's The Daily Mail, but the video is terrifying. Clearly there is unacceptable behaviour on both sides, this has to stop.

 

[ycbm]

This forum is called HORSE AND HOUND !!!
If you don't like hunting why are you here ?

It isn't a requirement of belonging to the forum that you approve of activities which are illegal, afaik.

 

[ycbm]

Well, if you know of Grands Crus, who at the time my Godfather (his owner) had been offered a life changing amount of money for, he regularly went hunting even when racing.

I didn't say there were none Michen.

The point was that point to pointing is not a benefit to the local community which is dependant on hunting, and can't be counted in hunting's favour, ime, because it will happen whether there is hunting or not because people want the racing opportunities.
.

 

[ycbm]

Having said that the law was brought in and most hunts have adapted and are doing their best to follow the law regarding laying and following trails.

Most hunts in my travelling distance have continued to hunt fox in defiance of the law. That's why they and legitimate trail hunts continue to be sabbed, because nobody is sure who is obeying the law and who is not.

There is no real history of drag hunts being sabbed. If trail hunters laid heavier and non fox scents and controlled their hounds like drag packs do, sabbing would disappear.

There is, of course, no excuse for illegal activity by sabs.

Laws brought in based on spite and against the evidence are bound to be resented.

It is a very small subset of the population that resents this law. A lot more people probably resent speeding laws.

 

[Fred66]

Hunting is banned because the majority of people in the country want it to be,

There is no evidence to support this statement it might be true it might not. Even if it is true it does not automatically make it right.

why should this activity be allowed to continue when it is both illegal, and disruptive to people trying to live and work in the countryside?

If you have evidence that it is illegal then give it to the police if not then it might just be that the hunt are acting legally. Also pure drag hunts would also generate the same level of disruption and the hunts have as much right to be on the road as anyone else. In my experience the hunt followers do their best to ensure clear passage for through traffic and try not to block the roads, the shout “car please” is used to indicate if a car not following is spotted in areas where the road might narrow to make passage difficult.

 

[GoldenWillow]

If you have evidence that it is illegal then give it to the police if not then it might just be that the hunt are acting legally. Also pure drag hunts would also generate the same level of disruption and the hunts have as much right to be on the road as anyone else. In my experience the hunt followers do their best to ensure clear passage for through traffic and try not to block the roads, the shout “car please” is used to indicate if a car not following is spotted in areas where the road might narrow to make passage difficult.

I think people's views are understandably very dependant on how their individual hunts act and behave.

My experience of our local hunt is that there were serious concerns by the community that they were acting illegally (no anti's involved, just locals and landowners). The police were called to monitor hunts, within minutes of the police arrived the hunt loaded the hounds and left.

I have also been on the receiving end of rude, nasty and bullying behaviour of hunt followers, jeering, very rude remarks and driving pushing me off the road onto land with deep hidden ditches. This was out on a hack on our local roads, hunt was a foot pack on this occasion because our land is not suitable for mounted hunt. The driving, and parking, of the followers is generally dangerous. Because of the hunts dreadful behaviour they have lost the landowners permission to hunt around here which they had previously had for all my lifetime.