Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Tiddlypom]

In my experience the hunt followers do their best to ensure clear passage for through traffic and try not to block the roads, the shout “car please” is used to indicate if a car not following is spotted in areas where the road might narrow to make passage difficult.

Lucky you.

I had a conversation one day with a master pointing out how much disruption the hunt causes by blocking roads etc., and how much ill feeling that causes to hunting by people who would otherwise be quite ambivalent towards it.

No, he was having none of it. He insisted that everyone wants to stop and watch the hunt when they come across it. He just couldn’t comprehend that actually people get pretty cross when held up by gormless road blocking.

My poor mobile hairdresser, a rural lass through and through, had just arrived very late as the hunt were blocking the road.

Same master had also opined that he couldn’t possibly let everyone with ‘an acre and a pony’ know that the hunt would be coming to their area in advance. So there you go, if you’ve got an acre and a pony, you’re not worth bothering about.

New mastership is working better for pre hunt notifications atm.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Thank you, Stressymummy, for bring the Kimblewick court case post back up .

As a reminder, the Countryside Alliance‘s Head of Hunting follows that pack. So you’d have thought that it would be a model of good practice, wouldn’t you?

 

[shortstuff99]

Last poll that I saw had support for the ban at 85% which is quite a lot I would say.

If you could show that packs were hunting completely legally I imagine support for an all out ban would drop considerably.

 

[Equine_Dream]

Most hunts in my travelling distance have continued to hunt fox in defiance of the law. That's why they and legitimate trail hunts continue to be sabbed, because nobody is sure who is obeying the law and who is not.

There is no real history of drag hunts being sabbed. If trail hunters laid heavier and non fox scents and controlled their hounds like drag packs do, sabbing would disappear.

There is, of course, no excuse for illegal activity by sabs.



It is a very small subset of the population that resents this law. A lot more people probably resent speeding laws.

Sorry but I must disagree with you there. Time after time we have been subject to harassment by sabs. We are open about laying our trails and haven't killed a fox for many many years. No "accidents" whatsoever. Our masters and whips have superb control of their hounds. Its a pleasure to watch them work. Yet despite our openness and best efforts sabs are simply not interested in listening. They just want to post pictures of children all over Facebook and make false accusations. Then even if they do acknowledge that we are hunting legally within the law, they claim its only due to their presence and if it wasn't for them we'd be tearing through local foxes left right and centre.
I firmly believe that sabs don't care about animal welfare for a second and it is purely a "class war". They simply want to harrass hunts ime.

 

[Sandstone1]

This forum is called HORSE AND HOUND !!!
If you don't like hunting why are you here ?

I am here because I like horses and in fact dogs, I think you will find that a lot of people here do not agree with ILLEGAL hunting. I have nothing against drag hunting or trail hunting but sadly that is not all that goes on is it??

 

[ycbm]

Sorry but I must disagree with you there. Time after time we have been subject to harassment by sabs. We are open about laying our trails and haven't killed a fox for many many years. No "accidents" whatsoever. Our masters and whips have superb control of their hounds. Its a pleasure to watch them work. Yet despite our openness and best efforts sabs are simply not interested in listening. They just want to post pictures of children all over Facebook and make false accusations. Then even if they do acknowledge that we are hunting legally within the law, they claim its only due to their presence and if it wasn't for them we'd be tearing through local foxes left right and centre.
I firmly believe that sabs don't care about animal welfare for a second and it is purely a "class war". They simply want to harrass hunts ime.

Trail hunts are sabbed because some/many trail hunts still hunt fox. Yours doesn't, but nobody knows that because so many others still do, hopefully now 'did'. Their suspicions that you might hunt illegally if they weren't there, in the light of that, are perfectly justified.

If they just wanted to disrupt they would also sab drags, and they never have except by rare mistake.

The mistake legal trail hunts have made is in turning a blind eye to what they full knew has extensively been happening with other hunts. I haven't read the full transcripts of the podcasts but I'd be surprised if there was any criticism at all, never mind howls of protest, when the advice was given how to evade the law.

 

[Sandstone1]

This forum is called HORSE AND HOUND !!!
If you don't like hunting why are you here ?

That attitude is one reason that the pro hunting gang has such a reputation for rudeness. I dont care if you are for or against hunting but if you want to put your point across try doing it in a polite manner. The fact is hunting live animals with hounds is ILLEGAL and what ever you think about it if you take part you are breaking the law.

 

[rabatsa]

Going by the vitriol poured out on facebook everytime the local blood hounds meet for drag hunting I suspect that it is any following of hounds by people on horses that the "public" are against.

 

[Sandstone1]

Going by the vitriol poured out on facebook everytime the local blood hounds meet for drag hunting I suspect that it is any following of hounds by people on horses that the "public" are against.

Probably because people dont trust them not to be hunting foxes, Yes I know Blood hounds do not but not everyone will know that.

 

[ycbm]

Going by the vitriol poured out on facebook everytime the local blood hounds meet for drag hunting I suspect that it is any following of hounds by people on horses that the "public" are against.

One of the reasons I was happy to give up drag hunting was because I was becoming increasingly embarrassed at the level of unavoidable and/or thoughtless antisocial impact on the neighbourhoods where we met and the road users where we went. This doesn't surprise me, there is simply not enough room for everyone any more.
.

 

[Equine_Dream]

Trail hunts are sabbed because some/many trail hunts still hunt fox. Yours doesn't, but nobody knows that because so many others still do, hopefully now 'did'. Their suspicions that you might hunt illegally if they weren't there, in the light of that, are perfectly justified.

If they just wanted to disrupt they would also sab drags, and they never have except by rare mistake.

The mistake legal trail hunts have made is in turning a blind eye to what they full knew has extensively been happening with other hunts. I haven't read the full transcripts of the podcasts but I'd be surprised if there was any criticism at all, never mind howls of protest, when the advice was given how to evade the law.

Their suspicion may have been justified initially but when they continue to harass and intimidate a hunt without any shred of evidence of illegal hunting whatsoever, that is not in any way justified. They know perfectly well that we are a legal hunt. In all the years of harassment we have suffered at their hands, they have never ever had a shred of evidence to justify their behaviour towards us.
I'm sorry but I hold nothing but utter contempt for these "people". They are no better than thugs and would imo continue to harass hunts just because they can, legal or not.

 

[Bernster]

The debate goes nowhere when people are at the far end of the range, but that’s true of many things. It’s a lot more grey and complex and I accept that - there are pros and cons, and decent and not so decent people on both sides.

What I can say from experience is trail hunts that I went out with didn’t always follow the law and didn’t make much pretence either but the drag hunt I’ve been out with have never shown any signs of that and were courteous and considerate. There was one mistake when hounds accidentally picked up the scent of a deer and the staff were right on it, got them back and were really bothered/annoyed that it had happened.

 

[oldie48]

This forum is called HORSE AND HOUND !!!
If you don't like hunting why are you here ?

I think it would be a great pity if anyone is made to feel unwelcome on this site because some members don't approve of their views. I've been a subscriber to H&H for over 20 years, I have never hunted and have never wanted to and that goes for most of my friends who subscribe. I also subscribe to Good Housekeeping although anyone who knows me would know most of is read but not practiced!
edit to say that I also do not support Anti's who behave illegally but think they have a right to their opinion provided they don't "interfere" with others and behave illegally.

 

[HashRouge]

I don't know why you are getting stroppy with me, it was just, I thought, an interesting point of discussion. If you read all my other comments you'd know chasing foxes isn't something I condone.

I don't know why you thought I was being stroppy? I was trying to engage with the point you raised as I also thought it was interesting though (clearly) disagreed with it.

 

[palo1]

Sabbing is vigilante action, pure and simple. Many sabs are paid by the day and are, as others have said, equally happy to be paid for fieldsport related actitivites if given the chance. It is probably the only situation in the UK where vigilanti-ism occurs on an organised basis but the current government did indicate that this should not be tolerated, that animal rights activists are considered a real threat (and are included within the extremist groups covered by PREVENT training; which I have undertaken and I have to say not especially felt comfortable with but that is a professional requirement for me). Following the Coronavirus crisis and Brekit related issues any government action on this may be delayed of course.

However, UK culture doesn't support vigilante action or extremism and those posters supporting sabbing should consider how their support contributes to or encourages illegal, extremist and anti-social action, ideas and attitudes. Those huntsmen and hunt staff that are hunting illegally should be dealt with by the law through the legal framework that exists and where people feel illegal hunting is/has taken place that should be a police matter not a matter for HSA organised thuggery and intimidation. Even where illegal hunting is proven, this is not identifed as a dangerous form of extremism or a threat to UK society. 2 wrongs never make a right of course, but the actions of animal rights groups simply are considered more serious in law and government policy than Hunting Act offences so, all the posters making accusations about encouraging illegality (through supporting legal trail hunting) should perhaps consider exactly what level of support they give to a more significant threat.

I hear those people who say that sabbing wouldn't be necessary if there wasn't a suspicion of illegal hunting but we don't tolerate that kind of action, ever, around other 'suspicious' activities in this country; we don't have temperance vigilantes outside pubs to stop drunk drivers, we don't have immigration vigilantes intimidating businesses that may be exploiting asylum seekers and refugees; we don't have vigilantes attempting to track down and deal with drug dealers. Those are all police matters because that is how the UK civil society works.

The BBC reported, in 2004):-
The new UK strategy against animal extremists
At the end of July 2004 the Home Office announced a new strategy for dealing with animal rights extremists.

This strategy proposed the following measures:

• It would become an arrestable offence to protest outside homes in a way that causes harassment, alarm or distress to residents
• Section 42 of the of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 would be amended to make it an offence for a person subject to a direction to return to the vicinity of the premises within 3 months
  • This means that if a police officer tells a person to leave the area outside someone's house, they should not return to protest or intimidate; if they do, they are likely to be arrested
• An amendment to the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 would cover harassment of two or more people who are connected (e.g. employees of the same company) even if each individual is harassed on only one occasion.

Further, subsequent Prevent Training guidance identifies:-

10 Apr 2019 — The Government has defined extremism in the Prevent strategy as: “vocal or ... The white supremacist ideology of extreme right-wing groups has also ... in relation to any form of extremism, be that faith based, animal rights, ...(https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...d-prevent-duty-guidance-for-england-and-wales.

Every single council in the UK has animal rights protesters identified as a threat.

Nowhere is trail-hunting or the possibility of illegality in trail hunting considered such a threat to UK society and civil liberty.

The laws and training related to this have been in place over both Labour and Conservative governments. Hunt monitors who do not trespass, harass or intimidate and who are not masked (ironic in these current circumstances I grant you!) are not included in this group of course because it is perfectly legal to access footpaths, take photos, write notes etc etc and so it should be. That is entirely in line with the UK laws and the freedoms we enjoy.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I don’t think that that anyone on here actually supports hunt sabs as opposed to monitors - and the two groups are indeed very different in how they operate.

It was horrid round here when the sabs arrived. It had just been monitors out previous to that. I was one of those trying to flag down passing traffic as confused hounds milled about on the roads when sabs made their own horn calls. Then the antis posted on FB about how useless the huntsman was because he couldn’t control hounds .

I never felt personally threatened by any of the antis, though, but being dressed in horsey clothing I was clearly viewed with great suspicion by both groups, who assumed that I must be a closet illegal hunter.

 

[meleeka]

I think hunt sabs are (as apprised to hunt monitors) is wrong , but that doesn’t mean I’m on the side of those that hunt. There’s been a lot of ....well they do worse things” on this thread, but two wrongs definitely do not make a right.

 

[palo1]

I think what some posters put in here comes very close to support for sabbing Both sabbing and illegal hunting are against the law but really are viewed and treated differently because of the status of 'threat' that both present. Illegal hunting essentially presents no threat to civil society, sabbing - a form of animal rights extremism does.

For those that say the majority of people want to see hunting completely banned, there is no evidence for that and like a great many 'minority' issues in the UK that doesn't hold much sway. Thankfully the UK supports a hugely wide range of minority interests and activities, not all of which are widely understood or supported. I am really proud to live in a place that allows considerable freedom in civil society and I , as part of the majority in other areas of thought really don't want to dictate to minority groups how they live their life, even if I don't particularly 'approve' or understand elements of that.

 

[paddy555]

I think what some posters put in here comes very close to support for sabbing Both sabbing and illegal hunting are against the law but really are viewed and treated differently because of the status of 'threat' that both present. Illegal hunting essentially presents no threat to civil society, sabbing - a form of animal rights extremism does.

I haven't seen anyone on here supporting sabbing. I don't get the impression that they do. I totally hate violence of any sort. From some of the footage I have seen some members of hunts appear perfectly capable of giving back physically as good as they get but obviously that is not right on either side.

You seen keener to impose the law on sabbing than on illegal hunting.

I agree with TP's post 241. Hunts have brought so much of this on themselves with their attitudes. Road blocking, a total nightmare for us with narrow single track roads and very few passing places whilst they stand on the banks and watch the hunt. Not publicising where they are meeting so suddenly you find them there. Suddenly your horses start galloping around wrecking the field. If you had known they were in the area you could have prevented that damage.

Why do hunts (possibly not all) not publicy announce their meets if they have nothing to hide? It used to be announced in the local press and H & H. Now it appears to be for members only yet it affects the public far more that the members.

Their arrogance has sometimes been unbelievable over the years.. I remember before the ban taking my horse out for a ride on a hunting day and a hunt supporter deliberately shutting a gate right in front of my face. WTF. That didn't do much for goodwill towards them.

The most worrying incident however came last year. They have no right over our fields or the fields above us. I live in an area of sheep farming and have a GSD. To prevent accidents I have fenced half an acre for him to run in which is GSD proof. I had no idea they were hunting in our area. Ran the GSD, brought him in and then saw hounds, a lot of them, charging over the bank, straight over the fence which they wrecked as they were jumping it from a height then getting stuck in his paddock. They finally wrecked another fence and they forced their way out. They were far more experienced at getting through fences than my dog is. They streamed over my fields and then into my neighbours fields of sheep.
If my dog had been out 1 minute earlier there would have been no way I could have caught him with that lot and he would have followed them straight into the sheep.

Whilst I was watching these hounds charging across my fields one of the hunt staff was walking down the road, reins on the buckle quite oblivious to it. He did politely say "good afternoon"
The master came out the following morning. He had no idea which fields the hunt were allowed in. I have owned those fields for 40 years. How could they not know by now. They simply didn't care.

Palo,, still waiting for some of the benefits to the countryside of hunting you mentioned.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Those saying that foxes hunt other animals for fun...you do realise that foxes are opportunist hunters and cache food yes..?? So they kill more than they need so they can come back to take remaining food to store. I wouldn't mind betting that a large proportion of those who think foxes are vermin have cats..?? Cats really do just hunt for the hell of it. An unpopular opinion maybe but I absolutely detest cats, they kill MILLIONS of wild birds etc every year, should we start hunting these little b@#$%rds too..?? (Not to mention the amount that get targeted for abuse, run over etc etc)

 

[Sandstone1]

I do not condone bad behaviour from either side. I do not support " Sabbing" but some of the behaviour from the hunt and their followers leaves a lot to be desired at times. The truth is that if all hunts stuck to the rules and hunted within the law there would be no need for hunt monitors etc. Sadly, as the footage and transcripts show most hunts only aim is to hunt fox. How anyone can honestly say that its been taken out of context I really do not know!
Times change, hunting has had its day. Yes its a tradition but so was bear baiting and Cock fighting but I really hope no one does that any more. Anyway Ive had my say on the subject. I will never agree with some. Just wonder how pro hunters can really justify what goes on.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I added some text in blue.

I think what some posters put in here comes very close to support for sabbing Both sabbing and illegal hunting are against the law but really are viewed and treated differently because of the status of 'threat' that both present. Illegal hunting essentially presents no threat to civil society, sabbing - a form of animal rights extremism does.

I don't think any posters here support or come close to supporting sabbing.

And I'm sorry, what? "Illegal hunting essentially presents no threat to civil society..."
I would beg to differ as anything that clearly violates a law is technically a threat to civil society. Never mind the whole animal welfare (or lackthereof) aspect of it all.
Of course sabbing, or any extremism does, that's a given I would think.


For those that say the majority of people want to see hunting completely banned, there is no evidence for that and like a great many 'minority' issues in the UK that doesn't hold much sway. Thankfully the UK supports a hugely wide range of minority interests and activities, not all of which are widely understood or supported. I am really proud to live in a place that allows considerable freedom in civil society and I , as part of the majority in other areas of thought really don't want to dictate to minority groups how they live their life, even if I don't particularly 'approve' or understand elements of that.

I think there is evidence, perhaps even under your own nose, that a majority of people want to see hunting banned. Although I think many would settle for hunting being allowed in its legal form.

This isn't a minority issue. This is people on their sport pets out engaging in the sport of hunting. It is not as though that are minority group. Then, if there is "no proof" that there is a majority of people wanting to see hunting completely banned, how is their proof that those in favor of or those that participate in hunting are a "minority group" do you have substantial data to support that?

I think everyone is proud to live in a plae that allows considerable freedom in civil society, and civil society should allow considerable freedom. The thing is we can dictate, in a way, how "minority groups" live their life. Even if we don't approve or understand. There is a line there when it comes to things such as animal welfare, terrorism, human rights, and generally following the law of your country. Now, some minority groups are allowed certain acts of preservation to preserve a culture or way of life, but I am not sure that fox hunting qualifies here. It could according to some, and it could not according to some.

ETA: Riddled with typos. Is what it is.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Those saying that foxes hunt other animals for fun...you do realise that foxes are opportunist hunters and cache food yes..?? So they kill more than they need so they can come back to take remaining food to store. I wouldn't mind betting that a large proportion of those who think foxes are vermin have cats..?? Cats really do just hunt for the hell of it. An unpopular opinion maybe but I absolutely detest cats, they kill MILLIONS of wild birds etc every year, should we start hunting these little b@#$%rds too..?? (Not to mention the amount that get targeted for abuse, run over etc etc)

That's why I keep my little terror (cat) indoors. Which apparently is also a welfare issue (house cats) according to some. Can't win.

I watched a yard cat torture and play with a mouse yesterday. Thankfully she finally finished off and ate the dang thing. I hate watching cats with their prey. Little savages.

I am generally impartial to foxes. They're cute and interesting. If any population gets out of control, usually due to their being no natural predators, I think intervention is ok. Swift, humane, intervention. No show about it.

 

[palo1]

I haven't seen anyone on here supporting sabbing. I don't get the impression that they do. I totally hate violence of any sort. From some of the footage I have seen some members of hunts appear perfectly capable of giving back physically as good as they get but obviously that is not right on either side.

You seen keener to impose the law on sabbing than on illegal hunting.

I agree with TP's post 241. Hunts have brought so much of this on themselves with their attitudes. Road blocking, a total nightmare for us with narrow single track roads and very few passing places whilst they stand on the banks and watch the hunt. Not publicising where they are meeting so suddenly you find them there. Suddenly your horses start galloping around wrecking the field. If you had known they were in the area you could have prevented that damage.

Why do hunts (possibly not all) not publicy announce their meets if they have nothing to hide? It used to be announced in the local press and H & H. Now it appears to be for members only yet it affects the public far more that the members.

Their arrogance has sometimes been unbelievable over the years.. I remember before the ban taking my horse out for a ride on a hunting day and a hunt supporter deliberately shutting a gate right in front of my face. WTF. That didn't do much for goodwill towards them.

The most worrying incident however came last year. They have no right over our fields or the fields above us. I live in an area of sheep farming and have a GSD. To prevent accidents I have fenced half an acre for him to run in which is GSD proof. I had no idea they were hunting in our area. Ran the GSD, brought him in and then saw hounds, a lot of them, charging over the bank, straight over the fence which they wrecked as they were jumping it from a height then getting stuck in his paddock. They finally wrecked another fence and they forced their way out. They were far more experienced at getting through fences than my dog is. They streamed over my fields and then into my neighbours fields of sheep.
If my dog had been out 1 minute earlier there would have been no way I could have caught him with that lot and he would have followed them straight into the sheep.

Whilst I was watching these hounds charging across my fields one of the hunt staff was walking down the road, reins on the buckle quite oblivious to it. He did politely say "good afternoon"
The master came out the following morning. He had no idea which fields the hunt were allowed in. I have owned those fields for 40 years. How could they not know by now. They simply didn't care.

Palo,, still waiting for some of the benefits to the countryside of hunting you mentioned.

In brief, paddy555 the benefits of hunting (legal trail hunting) for the countryside include:-

Environment

1. Conservation related activities such as the preserve of traditional wooded areas without requests for grants or state funding. In the current climate crisis these areas are considered a priority.
2. The 'effect' of controlled predator movement (via hounds movement) on other animals - such as happens as part of a trophic cascade and is recognised as pretty vital for ecosystems.
3. The continued observation and understanding of landscape level and micro-landscape level by skilled and experienced observers, including observation of wildlife, water, pasture, moorland and other effects (such as growth of bracken, heather, reeds etc) on a wider and more regular level than environmental charities and organisations can afford themselves. Whilst this information may be 'informal' hunting supporters are often knowledgeable about wildlife and take considerable interest and can observe change well. There are precedents for conservation and environmental charities using exactly this kind of observation and information finding to add to valuable research. (EG the Great British Garden Bird count etc) There are existing ways in which this information can be disseminated to specialist bodies and agencies without cost.

Community

1. Maintenance of community activity (even if you don't participate or remotely agree with hunting) the hunting community within the countryside is real and engages with all age groups and professions/trades. It is one of the few rural activities that is, by it's nature and actuality, inclusive and not prejudiced against elements such as age, race, religion, culture or poverty. There is an existing structure for this which requires no state funding. In most rural areas in Britain community activity is only supported elsewhere by the Church, schools and small, increasingly reduced state funded projects.
2. Fund-raising and provision of events that span beyond hunting (eg fun rides, dog shows, point to points - most of which are supported and funded by local hunts), including vital rural services for Air Ambulance, Mountain Rescue and local hospices. These bring people together and engage with vital voluntary services and charities on an on-going and established basis.

Employment

1. Employment - both of hunt staff and related trades; without hunting a great deal of winter equestrian activity would significantly slow down or become non-existant. Hunting provides direct employment for farriers, saddle fitters, tack shops, grooms, clothing etc. It may be a small contribution but it is none-the-less an established and successful one. Indirect employment is provided by the way that the contribution hunting can enable small businesses to remain viable during the winter months.

Culture

1. Hunting provides connection to a historical culture that embraces song, ritual, clothing, art and narrative. You may not like it one bit but culture is developed through connection with those elements and is considered a public good.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Illegal hunting essentially presents no threat to civil society, sabbing - a form of animal rights extremism does.

I’m going to pick this up.

Local pack gets caught out illegal hunting by monitors. Did they put their hands up and pack illegal hunting in, switching straight away to trail?

No. They fronted it out, and carried on. Then the sabs came in, and there was total chaos on hunting days for the rest of the season with the police having to intervene most days. Goodness knows how the rest of the county fared while the police were tied up in this.

Do I blame the sabs for this chaos? Partly, because of course they were in the thick of it. But I placed the greater part of the blame on the hunt for carrying on as long as they did, even though they had been completely rumbled.

All water under the bridge, now. I’m sure that there is still no love lost between the hunt and the monitors/sabs, but peace has been restored out here in the sticks.

Ignoring illegal activity is always a threat to society, you can’t pick and choose which laws you choose to obey.

 

[palo1]

It isn't a requirement of belonging to the forum that you approve of activities which are illegal, afaik.

I think this is a really unfair post @ycbm; nowhere has this poster said or suggested that they approve of illegal activities. The illegal activities which you are referring to are either past, proven convicted offences or assumed future wrong-doing. In this country the law exerts an 'innocent until proven guilty' process. You can go on saying and saying that people approve of illegal trail hunting but I haven't seen anyone, anyone on here say anything like that. You are making a leap from those that support hunting to be those that support illegal hunting/hunting offences. That just isn't fair or even accurate! Again, if I support my local pub does that automatically mean that I am supporting drunk drivers? If I provide support to asylum seekers does that mean I am supporting illegal people traffickers? It is a form of bullying by association that is pretty unpleasant actually.

 

[stormox]

When I was young (albeit 50 years ago) everyone with horses hunted. Some hunted to ride, others rode to hunt. We thought nothing of hacking 10 miles to a meet, hunting and hacking home.
As a teenager I never thought if it was good, bad , cruel or kind - it was something everyone did. The whole village turned out for the meet, meets were advertised in 'Horse and Hound' and I loved to read descriptions of good runs written by Loriner Dalesman and co..
Showjumping was for rich people, no ordinary person had an arena or jumps. Dressage wasn't even heard of.
But anyone could hack to the meet and hunt and we all did. Pony Club branches were associated with hunts.
I was so proud when I got blooded and given the brush - my mum was horrified but I didnt wash it off for a week!

I find it really sad that enjoying hunting is something to be ashamed of now. I dont think many foxes are saved, theres more people shooting and trapping them, the farmers still want them controlled.

 

[palo1]

I do not condone bad behaviour from either side. I do not support " Sabbing" but some of the behaviour from the hunt and their followers leaves a lot to be desired at times. The truth is that if all hunts stuck to the rules and hunted within the law there would be no need for hunt monitors etc. Sadly, as the footage and transcripts show most hunts only aim is to hunt fox. How anyone can honestly say that its been taken out of context I really do not know!
Times change, hunting has had its day. Yes its a tradition but so was bear baiting and Cock fighting but I really hope no one does that any more. Anyway Ive had my say on the subject. I will never agree with some. Just wonder how pro hunters can really justify what goes on.

Are you asking how 'pro-hunters' can justify an activity which is legal Sandstone1 or are you making a blanket assumption that all pro-hunting people and everyone that goes trail, drag or blood-hound hunting are engaged in illegal activities? That is neither certain nor actually possible.

 

[palo1]

I’m going to pick this up.

Local pack gets caught out illegal hunting by monitors. Did they put their hands up and pack illegal hunting in, switching straight away to trail?

No. They fronted it out, and carried on. Then the sabs came in, and there was total chaos on hunting days for the rest of the season with the police having to intervene most days. Goodness knows how the rest of the county fared while the police were tied up in this.

Do I blame the sabs for this chaos? Partly, because of course they were in the thick of it. But I placed the greater part of the blame on the hunt for carrying on as long as they did, even though they had been completely rumbled.

All water under the bridge, now. I’m sure that there is still no love lost between the hunt and the monitors/sabs, but peace has been restored out here in the sticks.

Ignoring illegal activity is always a threat to society, you can’t pick and choose which laws you choose to obey.

Ignoring illegal activity is always a threat to society - I certainly agree BUT the threat of one activity is identified as far more serious than the other. 2 wrongs don't make a right however when one wrong is more serious and injurious in legal and civil terms then that one needs addressing with greater weight and force. It doesn't mean the lesser illegality shouldn't be dealt with.

 

[palo1]

Last poll that I saw had support for the ban at 85% which is quite a lot I would say.

If you could show that packs were hunting completely legally I imagine support for an all out ban would drop considerably.

Mmm, and who commissioned that poll and which populations did it cover?...I could as easily carry out a 'poll' which would demonstrate that 85% of the people polled approved of hunting.