Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Sandstone1]

I have some questions which maybe pro hunters can answer please. IF genuine trail hunting is going on the hunt will obviously know the route the hunt will take. So why can landowners/livestock owners not be warned in advance?

This would obviously be a set trail, so why does my local hunt for example frequently hunt along side main roads, in villages, in working quarries, in industrial site etc etc.?

Why the secrecy about meets? If they are not hunting fox and doing nothing wrong what have they got to hide?

Why are there so many accidents ie kills if the huntsman is in control of his hounds?
I honestly do wonder if some of the most pro hunting folk on here are just blind to what goes on or if they actually do hunt at all as the reality of what goes on is so far from what actually happens at least with the hunts near me.

Yes I fully expect sabs to get the blame here but do you just think you should be allowed to happily carry on with a illegal activity just because you think you are above the law?
I can tell you now that is not going to happen!

 

[Clodagh]

Sandstone I’ll ignore the later rheotorical questions in that post and will point out that I no longer hunt but as for the why they can’t lay the trail sensibly… I have absolutely no idea. I also do t know why they can’t tell local people where they are.
I also don’t know if sabs try to disrupt hounds hunting a properly laid trail, if yes maybe that is why the secrecy.

 

[ycbm]

Every time anyone who owns a dog sets out to walk that dog, there is probably more potential for damage and injury to others than when a pack of hounds are taken to hunt a trail.

It beats me that you don't see what damage you do your cause by comments like this.
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[Fred66]

It beats me that you don't see what damage you do your cause by comments like this.
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Palo was stating facts by way of rebutting a point made regarding the hounds and livestock. I know in this day and age facts are viewed as inconvenient and reports should be about “your truth” (your in general not aimed at ycbm) because the real truth doesn’t fit your narrative.
Apparently in 2016 the number of sheep killed by dogs was 15,000 and since then the numbers have increased. Hounds rarely attack livestock (farmers wouldn’t have them on their land if they did).

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Upon reflection: never mind. Could use a better example/perhaps not clear enough.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Edit: not worth it.

 

[ycbm]

Palo was stating facts by way of rebutting a point made regarding the hounds and livestock. I know in this day and age facts are viewed as inconvenient and reports should be about “your truth” (your in general not aimed at ycbm) because the real truth doesn’t fit your narrative.
Apparently in 2016 the number of sheep killed by dogs was 15,000 and since then the numbers have increased. Hounds rarely attack livestock (farmers wouldn’t have them on their land if they did).

It beats me that you don't realise, however truthful it is, the damage that you are doing to your cause by comparing a pack of hounds followed by riders with people's pet dogs.

Your sport is sorely in need of some professional PR input.
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[Clodagh]

It beats me that you don't see what damage you do your cause by comments like this.
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I think it’s a fair point, even if you include foxes I expect far more domestic/farm and wild animals are killed by dog walkers per year than by hounds.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think it’s a fair point, even if you include foxes I expect far more domestic/farm and wild animals are killed by dog walkers per year than by hounds.

Ok, I wasn't going to get back involved with this, but here I am. Fair point, but what does it have to do with anything?

That isn't banned so this shouldn't be either? They're doing worse over there so I am still allowed to continue over here?

It's a problem/issue yes, but an issue in itself. Two wrongs don't make a right or allow a wrong to continue.

Accepting your wrong (as a sport), dealing with it, and fixing it looks far better than being concerned about or comparing to others wrongs.

 

[Clodagh]

Accepting your wrong (as a sport), dealing with it, and fixing it looks far better than being concerned about or comparing to others wrongs.

I don’t hunt any more, so it’s not my wrong. As a stand alone statement I felt it was true, is all.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I do agree (and the numbers are out there to prove it) that a lot more livestock is injured or killed by pets than by hunts.

The sentence that is being disputed does not refer specifically to livestock, though, it refers to 'others', not livestock. Hounds milling about on busy main roads and on railway lines, as has happened in this area very recently, definitely has potential to cause injury and damage to 'others'. Never mind all the atrocious driving and parking of the car followers.

Every time anyone who owns a dog sets out to walk that dog, there is probably more potential for damage and injury to others than when a pack of hounds are taken to hunt a trail.

The hunts round here have to hunt near to and criss cross major A roads and also railway lines. It is frankly pretty hazardous, and hound control should be spot on at all times, but all too often it isn't.

 

[Fred66]

Obviously hounds unaccompanied on roads or straying onto railways is not ideal and is obviously unplanned. These are relatively rare events considering the number of days hunting that occur across the country. There are many contributory factors some within the hunts control and some not.
No one on here has disputed this, however trail hunting is legal and no one should be entitled to try and scare us into not following.
If you do believe that someone has this right then is this because you disagree with hunting or because you believe that we all have the right to be vigilantes?
If the police don’t start taking a more active role in stopping these people from aggravated trespass then someone else will end up dead. I certainly don’t want this do you.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Obviously hounds unaccompanied on roads or straying onto railways is not ideal and is obviously unplanned. These are relatively rare events considering the number of days hunting that occur across the country. There are many contributory factors some within the hunts control and some not.
No one on here has disputed this, however trail hunting is legal and no one should be entitled to try and scare us into not following.
If you do believe that someone has this right then is this because you disagree with hunting or because you believe that we all have the right to be vigilantes?
If the police don’t start taking a more active role in stopping these people from aggravated trespass then someone else will end up dead. I certainly don’t want this do you.

I'm assuming you are referring to sabs here?

Until hunts stop trespassing on people's land, killing their horses, cats and livestock, they do not have a leg to stand on re-saboteur trespass. It is the pot calling the kettle black, and imo hunt trespass is a much more serious offence, given that it often results in destruction of property and the death of a by-standing animal.

I don't doubt at all that dog attacks by loose dogs in general are a major problem - I myself was attacked by two dogs last year. One on a public footpath in the countryside, one in the suburbs that had escaped from a garden. Both instances were terrifying. I can't even imagine 40 such dogs in a pack, out of control. It is a horrifying thought.

Hunting is an organised sport and the safety of others in the surrounding area should be a top priority. A horse was recently killed in its own field, this is not one isolated incident, we hear these stories every year. If hunts get their dogs under control and stop trespassing on land they shouldn't be on then maybe there is a chance that the sport might survive.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I think we can all agree that ILLEGAL hunting needs to stop, as does the carnage that has been caused by some hunts that floute the law and act in a completely irresponsible manner towards land owners/members of the public.
However, and I think I have said this already, I do worry about the precedent allowing sabs to continue in intimidation, tresspass and violence will set.
If trail hunting falls where will they turn their attention to next I wonder? Shooting? Fishing? Farming? Racing?
No one should be allowed to make their point through intimidation and violence. I think people have the absolute right to make their views known via peaceful means, but that does not mean taking the law into your own hands.
I think the way things are heading it really is only a matter of time before someone is killed.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If trail hunting falls where will they turn their attention to next I wonder? Shooting? Fishing? Farming? Racing?

Sabs have already started turning their attention to shoots. As of yet, it seems to be a case of going out to sab a hunt, but if they can't find it, sabbing a shoot instead.

Though I personally hate shooting, it is still a legal pastime.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Sabs have already started turning their attention to shoots. As of yet, it seems to be a case of going out to sab a hunt, but if they can't find it, sabbing a shoot instead.

Though I personally hate shooting, it is still a legal pastime.

Yes I have seen the odd post relating to sabbing shoots on facebook. Athough for now hunts seem to be taking the lion's share of their attention, it does make you wonder where they will turn their attention to next?

 

[Fred66]

…

 

[Clodagh]

Yes I have seen the odd post relating to sabbing shoots on facebook. Athough for now hunts seem to be taking the lion's share of their attention, it does make you wonder where they will turn their attention to next?

shooting, as has been said. As someone who works my dogs on shoots hunting is providing a buffer at the moment.

 

[YorksG]

Yes I have seen the odd post relating to sabbing shoots on facebook. Athough for now hunts seem to be taking the lion's share of their attention, it does make you wonder where they will turn their attention to next?

I have wondered why they don't take issue with fishing, a horribly cruel "sport" imo. I have my own theories as to why that may be...

 

[Clodagh]

I have wondered why they don't take issue with fishing, a horribly cruel "sport" imo. I have my own theories as to why that may be...

Because it’s not a posh sport? Well at least the accessible fishermen tend not to be.
I think though fishing does get sabbed sometimes. At the end of the day hunting gives all other sports breathing room.

 

[palo1]

It beats me that you don't see what damage you do your cause by comments like this.
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I genuinely don't understand your ire on this; I am both a dog owner and trail hunter, as well as livestock owner. Pet dogs cause far more problems than trail hounds so if you have an issue with hounds killing pets or wildlife (which would be absolutely reasonable) why on earth would you dismiss the larger issue of pet dogs? Pet dog owners have accidents, poor control , issues with aggression etc etc far more often and with far greater damage to far more people and property. Why tolerate that more than the lesser issues caused by trail hounds? I am not dismissing those issues btw but trying to give a sense of proportion. Is it because you just want to make more of trail hunting issues?

 

[ycbm]

I don't have any ire, just puzzlement and sadness.

My sadness is that you can't see damage you do to your cause by the statements you make. In pure PR terms, correct or not, they are disastrous.
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[ycbm]

I have wondered why they don't take issue with fishing, a horribly cruel "sport" imo. I have my own theories as to why that may be...

Because for now they have more obvious fish to fry. Hunting will go. Shooting will be next. Then they'll start on fishing or possibly racing.
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[meleeka]

Obviously hounds unaccompanied on roads or straying onto railways is not ideal and is obviously unplanned.

“Not ideal” is an odd phrase to use and sounds like you are trivialising it. It’s a lot worse then “not ideal”. It’s dangerous and putting peoples lives at risk.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Because for now they have more obvious fish to fry. Hunting will go. Shooting will be next. Then they'll start on fishing or possibly racing.
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Completely agree shooting and fishing will be next as the more obvious choices, but I definitely think racing and possibly dairy/meat farming will also need to watch their backs.

 

[palo1]

I don't have any ire, just puzzlement and sadness.

My sadness is that you can't see damage you do to your cause by the statements you make. In pure PR terms, correct or not, they are disastrous.
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That just confirms what many hunting people have known for years; the facts don't trouble anti hunters and sabs! The anti hunt movement was premised on cruelty and lack of necessity; neither of which could be evidenced in any enquiry. So without having the weight of evidence for their raison d'etre the mission had to creep. There is no place for vigilantism in a democracy; that leads to a dangerous mob culture, every time. Stick to the facts or we all risk discrimination, attack, loss of freedom and the diminution of the democracy we value. That won't just affect field sports and farming.

 

[ycbm]

That just confirms what many hunting people have known for years; the facts don't trouble anti hunters and sabs! The anti hunt movement was premised on cruelty and lack of necessity; neither of which could be evidenced in any enquiry. So without having the weight of evidence for their raison d'etre the mission had to creep. There is no place for vigilantism in a democracy; that leads to a dangerous mob culture, every time. Stick to the facts or we all risk discrimination, attack, loss of freedom and the diminution of the democracy we value. That won't just affect field sports and farming.

You are walking blindly into completely losing the sport you love.
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[Chianti]

Completely agree shooting and fishing will be next as the more obvious choices, but I definitely think racing and possibly dairy/meat farming will also need to watch their backs.

I imagine in the fairly near future our relationship with many animals will be completely different. Just as we're now appalled by bear baiting I think the idea of breeding birds, keeping them in captivity, and then forcibly moving them towards a line of people with shotguns will be equally unacceptable. We're increasingly aware of the emotional awareness of animals towards each other, and us, and we have to start to acknowledge that in our relationships with them.

 

[palo1]

You are walking blindly into completely losing the sport you love.
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No, I am not - I am doing everything I can to support legal trail hunting. I don't know why you would suggest otherwise but hey ho...

 

[ycbm]

. I don't know why you would suggest otherwise but hey ho...

That's kind of the point. For months and months on various threads I and others have advised what you need to do to save your sport and you have not listened to, or it seems tried to understand, one word of it.
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