Hypermobile horse and what to do

[Caol Ila]

In the photo you've postd, he looks okay. And three year olds are gangly, weird looking creatures anyway.

Never had to deal with the goofy boy horse thing. Hermosa was a ditzy teenager as 3yo, though. I sure don't miss that. Like I said in maya's thread, I was a few breaths away from selling her 'cause I hate that sh1t. But luckily it was just a phase.

As hard as it is, just go with it, keep the work light, let him muscle up. Even the most perfectly conformed horse can f*09ck itself.

There's been a lot out there (and on this forum) about hypermobility and DSLD, and some horses (like BBP) have had serious health issues as a result of it, but I bet there are many, many horses out there with kind of long, springy pasterns who have long, or at least average, working lives, and you never hear about it, because it's boring. No one writes about the good stuff. Hacked today. Nothing happened. Blah, blah, blah. I do think that kind of availability heuristic can cause one's brain to spiral very easily. I mean, sure, be aware and strengthen the horse (and you are!) but I'd advise to not spin out about it, not yet!

 

[SEL]

Not going to lie, I was expecting much worse than that photo! I’d crack on in as much as you do with a 3 year old and not die on the hill before you’re there!

Me too. I was expecting more of a BBP presentation

The disturbing thing is that I've seen that much drop and/or fetlocks contacting the surface in dressage horses that are still out competing.

A friend is the bodyworker for some top level dressage horses. A couple are pretty bad IMO but they work hard to keep their bodies in shape - she was the lady who advised me that time off isn't helpful.

 

[Tiddlypom]

There were more photos but the OP has felt that she had to take them down.

 

[BBP]

Me too. I was expecting more of a BBP presentation


A friend is the bodyworker for some top level dressage horses. A couple are pretty bad IMO but they work hard to keep their bodies in shape - she was the lady who advised me that time off isn't helpful.

I think that photo was posted to show illustrate what she was saying about him throwing his front legs where we were talking about being able to stabilise the limb from the shoulder and thoracic sling. They don’t show the extension of the fetlock in that phase of the trot.

 

[SEL]

There were more photos but the OP has felt that she had to take them down.

That's a shame - I think this is a valuable thread so it would be horrible if it got nasty.

 

[ihatework]

I can’t see anywhere it’s got even close to nasty

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Me too. I was expecting more of a BBP presentation


A friend is the bodyworker for some top level dressage horses. A couple are pretty bad IMO but they work hard to keep their bodies in shape - she was the lady who advised me that time off isn't helpful.

You can't truly see it in that phase of the trot though.

There were more photos but the OP has felt that she had to take them down.

I received 3 messages as a result of those photos. 1 was blunt, but fine. 2 were just downright nasty. I didn't feel like dealing with more, tbh.

I think that photo was posted to show illustrate what she was saying about him throwing his front legs where we were talking about being able to stabilise the limb from the shoulder and thoracic sling. They don’t show the extension of the fetlock in that phase of the trot.

This!

I am sort of baffled by people saying "that wasn't so bad" because that photo doesn't illustrate the fetlock dropping phase of the trot. Granted, I appreciate their positivity.

I can’t see anywhere it’s got even close to nasty

It hasn't on the thread! As I said elsewhere, it was via messages. I've just deleted them because I can't be arsed to deal with...well...arses!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It was this photo:



At this point, people can say what they want and be however they want to be. If I get messages I'll delete them. If I want to, I can leave. I'm not here against my will.

The thing is I am fine with advice and opinions, but accusations of abuse, negligence, being an idiot, and bad words about his breeder... I just don't care anymore.

 

[maya2008]

What does your vet say? Physio?

As a human, I would wrap a joint that over extended like that. No idea if it is recommended for a horse. The wrap doesn’t take the strain so much as make the animal (in my case human) aware of the over extension and help them know when is too much pressure. Hypermobile joints don’t tell you when you’re extending too much - so you just keep pushing and they just keep extending…but you can learn to apply less pressure so they don’t go so far.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I received 3 messages as a result of those photos. 1 was blunt, but fine. 2 were just downright nasty. I didn't feel like dealing with more, tbh.

Crikey, I’m sorry to hear that CC .

 

[CanteringCarrot]

What does your vet say? Physio?

As a human, I would wrap a joint that over extended like that. No idea if it is recommended for a horse. The wrap doesn’t take the strain so much as make the animal (in my case human) aware of the over extension and help them know when is too much pressure. Hypermobile joints don’t tell you when you’re extending too much - so you just keep pushing and they just keep extending…but you can learn to apply less pressure so they don’t go so far.

My vet is completely not concerned. He said that the horse has nice movement that I should enjoy and it's not DSLD/ESPA. He's basically in the camp of just enjoy the horse that you've got. I asked about supplements, proactive things, etc. He just said he has a good diet, and don't ride like an idiot, basically he can be a bit of an odd one though and it's interesting what concerns him and what doesn't sometimes.


So, we don't have physio's here. The chiro didn't say much, and there weren't any major adjustments to make. The other "bodyworker" just does massage, so it's rather superficial.

Wraps and/or boots don't provide support on a horse. I know that shoes can possibly slightly minimize the drop/foot sinking into rooting if it's a shoe with a long "trailer" to it. My thing is, if you provide "support" and that support is gone (no wraps in the field, or loses a shoe and farrier can't come right away, or has a hooley without the shoe), does it actually make the horse more prone to injury because the body became reliant on that "alteration" whatever it may be? I don't know if that's a legit theory or not. I just plan to keep a good trim on him.

 

[maya2008]

My vet is completely not concerned. He said that the horse has nice movement that I should enjoy and it's not DSLD/ESPA. He's basically in the camp of just enjoy the horse that you've got. I asked about supplements, proactive things, etc. He just said he has a good diet, and don't ride like an idiot, basically

So, we don't have physio's here. The chiro didn't say much, and there weren't any major adjustments to make. The other "bodyworker" just does massage, so it's rather superficial.

Wraps and/or boots don't provide support on a horse. I know that shoes can possibly slightly minimize the drop/foot sinking into rooting if it's a shoe with a long "trailer" to it. My thing is, if you provide "support" and that support is gone (no wraps in the field, or loses a shoe and farrier can't come right away, or has a hooley without the shoe), does it actually make the horse more prone to injury because the body became reliant on that "alteration" whatever it may be? I don't know if that's a legit theory or not. I just plan to keep a good trim on him.

Wraps don’t wildly support me either, but they tighten slightly if I am overextending and the tightness is irritating, so it makes me aware and I stop piling the pressure on. If that makes any sense at all.

I’m with enjoy what you have. We have one whose hips are not quite right due to too many babies too young. We’re not going to push her, but she enjoys her work and it strengthens her, so she hacks and schools and we accept her working life won’t perhaps be as long as another pony’s might be.

 

[TPO]

You're nicer than me (possibly not saying much!!), I'd be outing them.

Not sure what emboldened folk to send abuse over PM to someone. I've been here sine 2004 and only had 2 bad PMs. One about a horse I lost (& am still devastated about 14.5yrs later) and one "concerned" about my dog in my care. Auda City, Population those barstewards.

I know rock all about hypermobility. The photo that was left looked fine to me but I can see why you're asking questions based on the other two.

You're not daft and are clearly tuned into your horse and any changes. I'd say keep on keeping on. You currently have a sound and able horse so keep doing what you're doing eith an eye to continual strengthening and condition works. Undoubtedly what you'd be doing anyway

Sorry you've posted looking for help and had PMs from twunts

 

[CanteringCarrot]

You're nicer than me (possibly not saying much!!), I'd be outing them.

Not sure what emboldened folk to send abuse over PM to someone. I've been here sine 2004 and only had 2 bad PMs. One about a horse I lost (& am still devastated about 14.5yrs later) and one "concerned" about my dog in my care. Auda City, Population those barstewards.

I know rock all about hypermobility. The photo that was left looked fine to me but I can see why you're asking questions based on the other two.

You're not daft and are clearly tuned into your horse and any changes. I'd say keep on keeping on. You currently have a sound and able horse so keep doing what you're doing eith an eye to continual strengthening and condition works. Undoubtedly what you'd be doing anyway

Sorry you've posted looking for help and had PMs from twunts

I've not had any other messages of that sort before, that I can think of. I don't know why this sent people off!

Anyway, I'm just going to try to keep improving other parts of his body in an effort to help the shite parts, really.

 

[SEL]

I've not had any other messages of that sort before, that I can think of. I don't know why this sent people off!

Anyway, I'm just going to try to keep improving other parts of his body in an effort to help the shite parts, really.

At one point I was going to post photos of mine but there's too much leg hair to get the over extension off a video. Relieved I didn't now!

Mine has got ouchy over extending, but that's happened when adrenaline took over and his brain didn't click in. I have an excellent physio and she told me if I'm worried he's worked or played a bit too hard then get an anti inflammatory into him. I generally do a dose of devil's claw. Vet was happy with that.

Both Vet and physio stressed keeping him fit and strong and despite my wobbles they've been right. It may all come crashing down at somepoint but then horses have 1001 ways to self harm anyway.

I've seen suspensories collapse on a 5yo part bred Shire & it was obvious at walk there was a serious issue. She'd started to nap and rear too so riding was obviously associated with pain - she was PTS

 

[ihatework]

What the hell is wrong with people to be sending nasty PMs, at all, let alone something there is no need to be nasty about.

The joint extension isn’t great but it is what it is. You physically cannot change it. In your words you have a sound happy horse enjoying work. Your vet also isn’t having kittens. He is young, and although I personally wouldn’t be continuing to work a 3yo over winter, that is besides the point. You are happy to and plenty of 3yo successfully do prolonged light work to no detriment, so work him mindfully, enjoy the journey and stop giving yourself a nervous breakdown over something that isn’t an issue at present.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

At one point I was going to post photos of mine but there's too much leg hair to get the over extension off a video. Relieved I didn't now!

Mine has got ouchy over extending, but that's happened when adrenaline took over and his brain didn't click in. I have an excellent physio and she told me if I'm worried he's worked or played a bit too hard then get an anti inflammatory into him. I generally do a dose of devil's claw. Vet was happy with that.

Both Vet and physio stressed keeping him fit and strong and despite my wobbles they've been right. It may all come crashing down at somepoint but then horses have 1001 ways to self harm anyway.

I've seen suspensories collapse on a 5yo part bred Shire & it was obvious at walk there was a serious issue. She'd started to nap and rear too so riding was obviously associated with pain - she was PTS

For whatever reason(s) I've seen a lot of drop in all legs in Cobs and Draft horses. I don't know why? For the most part, both are traditionally pulling and/or cart horses, right? So soft pasterns wouldn't be desirable there, I'd think? I see it a lot in Friesian horses too. I'm not sure where it comes from, but it's quite common.

It does make sense to keep them fit. I've seen mine gallop around like an absolute loon and be no worse for the wear, to the naked eye, anyway.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

What the hell is wrong with people to be sending nasty PMs, at all, let alone something there is no need to be nasty about.

The joint extension isn’t great but it is what it is. You physically cannot change it. In your words you have a sound happy horse enjoying work. Your vet also isn’t having kittens. He is young, and although I personally wouldn’t be continuing to work a 3yo over winter, that is besides the point. You are happy to and plenty of 3yo successfully do prolonged light work to no detriment, so work him mindfully, enjoy the journey and stop giving yourself a nervous breakdown over something that isn’t an issue at present.

Yeah, that makes sense. It's just that whenever he may hesitate or do something, I'm going to wonder...but sometimes green horses just are green horses.

I've read of benefits to keep young horses slowly but steadily ticking over, so tend to stick with that. I've always done this with my (healthy) young horses with no ill result. I don't think not working them over winter does them "bad" per say, but if a carefully constructed fitness program could be of more benefit, than I'll choose that.

I did consider turning him away, but that's mostly because I hate winter

 

[Jojo2go]

It was this photo:

View attachment 152008

At this point, people can say what they want and be however they want to be. If I get messages I'll delete them. If I want to, I can leave. I'm not here against my will.

The thing is I am fine with advice and opinions, but accusations of abuse, negligence, being an idiot, and bad words about his breeder... I just don't care anymore.

After seeing all three pictures I can understand your concerns! The first one I didn't see a problem, but the second two would curl my hair if it was my horse. We had a Standardbred mare (a trotter) who had scary looking fetlocks, but someone was interested in her as a broodmare after a good racing career, and after an owner change ended up in a kill pen. We found out and my daughter and I bought her back, and suprisingly at 20 years old, she didn't look any worse when she got home.

Your boy is only 3, which is a concern I understand you having, pictures two and three do not look good at all. What a shame. I don't know what I would do in your situation. Anyone sending you nasty messages should be ashamed of themselves. A person should never be flamed for asking questions.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

After watching competition and sale videos of horses anywhere from age 3 to 19, there are many horses out there that look similar to mine. Some are young and not doing much yet and others are quite active. I primarily looked at horses aimed at or ridden dressage.

While I wouldn't purposely buy a horse with this type of issue again (it was a bit hard to tell when he was a foal), I think it's just a toss up as to how it will work out. I'm not too optimistic, but we will enjoy whatever time we have together.

I'm continuing the posture work and strengthening. I watched him tonight when I free lunged him and he otherwise travels so correctly, uses himself well, and willingly stretches down, out, and over his back. We then did some other ground work and he was pleased with himself.

I'm very hands on with his body and we do a lot of different ground exercises, so hopefully I'll notice an issue before it's too bad. He used to stand with his right hind pointed out a bit and I've managed to sort that with the right work. He's also standing much wider behind now too. So the work and attention pays off.

 

[tristars]

I would work him by hacking x 3 per week Mon wed fri, weekend off for both your sakes, say 30 mins to start, so he just warms himself up, releases tensions while looking around at something different, and start to introduce leg yield or baby half pass to loosen him and stretch his top line so he most Importantly ends the session completely relaxed, combined with groundwork
For your mental health make some moves and try a plan, so the weekend say get a break from the stress of mainly not knowing which way it will all work out, and he might enjoy thinking over what has happened during the week and start to look forward to his coming week of hacking, and rest his body fresh to start again, at the mo it all looks kind of too much and foggy for the future, but you can only go in one direction forwards, courage! He sounds a lovely horse and probably very willing to please and longing do interesting stuff, you are doing this for him, hope you will be rewarded, going steady to start is what all young horses deserve , hope to hear a positive update in the future

 

[MissTyc]

My hackney X drops her fetlock like that and I also thought she would be knackered and unrideable. I got her as a weanling and it was there but not pronounced. I assumed she'd outgrow it as many foals are long through the fetlock. But it only got worse. Bar one tendon sheath inflammation that may or may not have been linked, she has stayed sound. Now 15. She hacks over all terrains with quite a heavy rider (not me), 3-4 hour rides. With me previously she jumped and evented. No one was as surprised as me that she always stayed sound. My vet talks a lot about function vs form and she is a good example of that. Her body is functional. It looks wrong, etc, but it it functional. I think when you get uber critical about movement, you just get more surprised that any horse ever stays sounds bth. So all I wll say is "GOOD TIDINGS" and may your lovely remain functional and pain free, no matter what his body looks like.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I would work him by hacking x 3 per week Mon wed fri, weekend off for both your sakes, say 30 mins to start, so he just warms himself up, releases tensions while looking around at something different, and start to introduce leg yield or baby half pass to loosen him and stretch his top line so he most Importantly ends the session completely relaxed, combined with groundwork
For your mental health make some moves and try a plan, so the weekend say get a break from the stress of mainly not knowing which way it will all work out, and he might enjoy thinking over what has happened during the week and start to look forward to his coming week of hacking, and rest his body fresh to start again, at the mo it all looks kind of too much and foggy for the future, but you can only go in one direction forwards, courage! He sounds a lovely horse and probably very willing to please and longing do interesting stuff, you are doing this for him, hope you will be rewarded, going steady to start is what all young horses deserve , hope to hear a positive update in the future

Thank you.

At the moment hacking on that schedule is somewhat doable. It'll be easier when we have more daylight for sure. I can generally get there early enough in Wednesday and Friday. Could sub in a weekend day for now.

We already do leg yields in hand and ridden at the walk. I think they definitely help and can be very useful!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

My hackney X drops her fetlock like that and I also thought she would be knackered and unrideable. I got her as a weanling and it was there but not pronounced. I assumed she'd outgrow it as many foals are long through the fetlock. But it only got worse. Bar one tendon sheath inflammation that may or may not have been linked, she has stayed sound. Now 15. She hacks over all terrains with quite a heavy rider (not me), 3-4 hour rides. With me previously she jumped and evented. No one was as surprised as me that she always stayed sound. My vet talks a lot about function vs form and she is a good example of that. Her body is functional. It looks wrong, etc, but it it functional. I think when you get uber critical about movement, you just get more surprised that any horse ever stays sounds bth. So all I wll say is "GOOD TIDINGS" and may your lovely remain functional and pain free, no matter what his body looks like.

Thanks.

It's such a crapshoot. I've seen some very nice horses that were very well put together just never stay sound for long. Even under good care. Or you get a nicely put together horse with a not so nicely put together brain!

I've also seen some horses that cause me to raise an eyebrow, but seem content and sound out there doing whatever job. So who knows.

My horse is far from ideal, and horse ownership drives me bonkers at times. When the day comes, the day comes. Whether that's tomorrow, two years, or ten.

One of his half siblings had a very minor soft tissue injury on a hind leg (owner caught it right away). This half sibling does not have the same "stupid flexy" legs, and is/was definitely appropriately worked and cared for. Horses gonna horse.

 

[ester]

sorry for misunderstanding the reasoning for posting your first photo CC.

you know it anyway but you can only do what you can do/your best by him and see where you end up especially when I think knowledge is really pretty limited re. the consequences atm. There's plenty of people a lot bendier than me who have never had an issue pain or strain wise whereas I'm having to do constant management.

 

[TPO]

Apologies for teaching you to suck eggs but I just got this for a birthday present today so it's fresh in my mind.

The new book by Jec Aristotle Ballou might be of use. I've got their 55 exercises one and it's really handy too. I've only have a few flicks through but this new 33 Workouts books has actual progressive plans and has "check in" points to assess progress. I like things that are slightly more structured so it's appealing to me.

From what I can see it doesn't say anything new and echos most of the sentiments on here re strengthening and work. She actually agrees with 3yr olds doing light work to condition them [if they are level and able etc]. There's a section at the back covering that.

33 Strength and Fitness Workouts for Horses: Practical Conditioning Plans Using Groundwork, Ridden Work, Poles, Hills, and Terrain https://amzn.eu/d/fvj36tO

Just in case it helps

 

[hock]

Hypermobile eh? Well he’d be a big hit on the continent if you did want to sell him abroad. So my advice would be to find a track system for him. This does wonders in strengthening and has worked wonders for me. Tbh if I had the space at mine all mine would be on a track system. Then when it comes time to back him the advice from my vet was he will need working properly 6/7 days to build a strong core and again this also works wonders.

 

[tristars]

Which goes to show how important movement is to horses, gentle, repetitive movement, cc is already getting results with improvement in the alignment of the hind leg. using forwardness would not suit this horse, but doing it the other way round , building up slowly the forwardness will come when the horse is ready to offer it and at 3 yrs relaxation and balance may work, in his favour, plus the opportunity to observe his reaction as he changes, the expectant facial
Expression when it's time be ridden etc used as an indicator of how he is feeling

 

[Orangehorse]

Thanks.

It's such a crapshoot. I've seen some very nice horses that were very well put together just never stay sound for long. Even under good care. Or you get a nicely put together horse with a not so nicely put together brain!

I've also seen some horses that cause me to raise an eyebrow, but seem content and sound out there doing whatever job. So who knows.

My horse is far from ideal, and horse ownership drives me bonkers at times. When the day comes, the day comes. Whether that's tomorrow, two years, or ten.

One of his half siblings had a very minor soft tissue injury on a hind leg (owner caught it right away). This half sibling does not have the same "stupid flexy" legs, and is/was definitely appropriately worked and cared for. Horses gonna horse.

That's my feeling, go with what the vet says. You can have a horse with perfect conformation, but they can still go wrong.

You are being sensible, but rather than just turn out in a field for ever, just see how it goes, time will tell.

I have known some animals with appalling conformation that I would never, ever buy, show jumping, hunting, and Pony Club for years and years.

 

[sbloom]

Interestingly, I've viewed many photos of top level dressage horses at the canter and the trot (well, passage). The degree of drop and length in fetlock and pastern varies wildly.

The disturbing thing is that I've seen that much drop and/or fetlocks contacting the surface in dressage horses that are still out competing.

There aren't many top horses that aren't either actually hypermobile or showing a significant degree of this type of instability.

Slow work, in hand, and some ridden though personally I think loading with a rider is much more compromise to them than most vets seem to. I don't think hill work is a deal breaker once you're working on and observing posture/TS lift, let him find his own balance with no outline requests...all you can do is give him the tools for success as it were. Also bear in mind that I believe having hypermobility affects not just MSK stuff but organs etc too, so I'd just want to be aware, and broadly on top of, without worrying myself to death.