Hypermobile horse and what to do

CanteringCarrot

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Scanning the suspensory's isn't too expensive. Without that I think it's very difficult for a vet to say in a 3 yo and the damage is cumulative, my vet was very positive about my DSLD/ESPA horse but he got rapidly worse when I retired him, in part due to him being unsafe to ride. I wouldn't pass him on unless you are sure he doesn't have this.

We did scan them in July, actually. Mostly because he had swollen hind legs that were actually due to a virus, but I was paranoid and when the swelling went down we took a look anyway. They were fine. Some of you would be in shock at how high the bill was to do that here. I was ok with it because I needed peace of mind!

I have seen young horses exhibit signs of DSLD/ESPA and it does look a wee bit different than what this horse is doing.
 

TwyfordM

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So technically, per a doctor, I am hypermobile and "too bendy" but due to my ongoing strength exercises and general tendency to be active, I'm fine. It rarely causes an issue for me, but I'm not a horse, so I wasn't sure about similarities. If I get weaker or am inactive, then things start to crop up. I have the very rare "day or two" but it's uncommon.

I also have too much arthritis for my age so like to keep moving as that seems to help. Or so I tell myself 🤣

I think, in general, hypermobility is going to be the same across all species.

I can go into my GP/A&E with a shoulder hanging out and they go ... gym/strength exercises ... no sling 😂
Usual population goes in with a shoulder hanging out and it's all hands on deck, rest/ice/painkillers 🤔😂

I'm mucking out with a wrist that I popped this morning.
 

CanteringCarrot

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I think, in general, hypermobility is going to be the same across all species.

I can go into my GP/A&E with a shoulder hanging out and they go ... gym/strength exercises ... no sling 😂
Usual population goes in with a shoulder hanging out and it's all hands on deck, rest/ice/painkillers 🤔😂

I'm mucking out with a wrist that I popped this morning.

Been there with the shoulder 😂

It's a balance between staying the right amount of strong and doing the right amount of working out vs overdoing it. For me, anyway. So I have to be mindful.

I went to PT and they gave me this whole thing on basically keeping myself together with strength and muscle, but they phrased it much better than that!
 

BBP

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Yeah, I think we just differ on when to start a horse and how much we do at certain ages. Which is not uncommon.

It's just that now, what does one do? What is too much, and what is not enough?

Or do I just continue on until the day that the horse says no more and call it?

What signs do/did yours show of being bothered by it? I know BBP was hypermobile, but is your Connie too? Is there anything else you notice in their bodies (outside of the legs)?
My thoughts then…

As TwyfordM says, the absolute best thing for a hypermobile joint is to strengthen and stabilise the muscles that support that joint, so that the flexors can take on some of the work of the ligaments, and prevent the joint from hyperextending. The problem with a hypermobile horse is that they have zero muscle below the knee. Everything in that fetlock joint is controlled by tendons and ligaments. Those are things that you cannot particularly build up to take on the load of a hypermobile suspensory apparatus.

With BBP, his issues as a young horse were most notable at the canter. He had no engine or power. I now believe that is because as a 3 beat gait, at one point in the stride, 100% of his bodyweight (and mine when ridden) would be through one single hypermobile fetlock which had much weaker rebound capacity than a normal fetlock. It was at full hyperextension in trot so he had no where else to go in canter. He would use speed instead of stability. If galloping in the field he would fall regularly, as I don’t think he knew where his body was relative to the ground half the time. He was not a bold or brave jumper, again because the takeoff and landing put more weight through each limb for a more powerful spring. I think it worried him.

Hills weren’t great, he was much happier as a flat ground horse, and preferred hard ground to soft, as sinking into soft puts more stress on the suspensories too.

As he grew older, his trot also deteriorated. If his adrenaline was up and overriding common sense (which was most of the time sadly) he was a beautiful mover. But when not high as a kite he would try to be as economical as possible with a western pleasure type jog if on the lunge. I think to reduce the forces going through the hind fetlocks. He didn’t want to push and had learned to protect himself.

Retirement helped in that I was no longer asking him to move in ways that weren’t comfortable for him, but the rest of his body deteriorated into old man body. What I should have done, and wish I had done right from the start, was focus on correct groundwork that would support all the joints that did have muscular attachments higher up, so that I could help him to stabilise the movements that could he helped (so where you say your horse flings his front legs around, working on all the muscles around the thoracic sling to stabilise the shoulder and knee joints more, which might then in turn reduce the forces lower down). I wish I had done way more on the ground and way less on his back. I would have started him at 5 not 3 (only saying that as it is relevant to hypermobility purely for the amount of time spent on groundwork to develop the back stability). I would have focussed probably 70% walk work, 20% trot and 10% or less on canter (throughout his life not just when young) to minimise the single leg stance. I would have scanned his suspensories routinely I think, to check for damage from hyperextension, and his back ligaments as well).

I think with that approach I may have had a much happier time with him, with less anxiety, less injury and more fun. But it would have been different fun (no jumping etc). I also agree that selling is ethically challenging as they are the sort of horses that people love, but who deteriorate fast if they aren’t managed mindfully.

My 4yo Connemara is an odd one in that he shows no signs of hypermobility in his limbs, but has an exceptionally hypermobile neck. So not quite the same, but his neck requires careful consideration in everything I do with him.
 

myheartinahoofbeat

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Yeah, when the weather allows I try to fit some trails and outdoor riding in. I also take him for a fair amount of handwalks. Our terrain isn't too extreme, but it's not riding circles in a school at least.

Some days I am ok with it being what it is and recognize that even horses with very good or textbook conformation can still go wrong, lame, retire early etc. Other days I'm not sure what the point is and doubt any sort of longevity with him.

The vet said he doesn't look as though he'd have DSLD/ESPA but he also said I should enjoy his movement 🤔🙄
Excuse my ignorance. What are DSLD and ESPA please?
 

SEL

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One of my cobs has been described as 'almost hypermobile but not like one of those flashy expensive things' by a vet. It's not DSLD but there are times when his legs are at angles that make me wince.

He's 7 next year and it's loads better now but that's work, work and more work. Plus he responds well to a protein powder mix.

We school, we hack, we do groundwork - we don't have time off

So maybe I'm in the minority but I think to keep him healthy he needs to be worked not left in a field.
 

CanteringCarrot

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so where you say your horse flings his front legs around, working on all the muscles around the thoracic sling to stabilise the shoulder and knee joints more, which might then in turn reduce the forces lower down

This illustrates what I mean:

VideoCapture_20241220-073235.jpg

There's just a lot of "step" there. Or something. The front legs really go out infront of him by the time it lands. Maybe this is normal, idk.

I've been working on thoracic sling stuff and in general proper muscle development and use. His natural way of going is decent, so that's made this easier. If I free lunge him, he chooses good posture a vast majority of the time.

I haven't extensively worked on his canter or anything, but his canter feels amazing. Especially for a horse his age. Very rhythmic, balanced, and you can feel the power there.

Just standing still his legs look fine, and I think that's why people don't take me seriously when I talk about how flexy they are 🙄

The vet, saddle fitter, and trimmer are all satisfied with his condition. So sometimes I think I'm being "extra" but I see those fetlocks really drop when I watch him. I'll forever be sensitive to this whenever I look at a horse!

I honestly think I'll just crack on, primarily from the ground. When it's the end, then it's the end. I cannot emphasize enough how much he wants to do "things" so I'm hesitant to completely turn him away for a long time, especially if there's no real guarantee or proof behind that doing him good/better than what he's doing now.
 

TheMule

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I would just crack on with him- you don’t want to jump big fences or gallop which would be his biggest limitation IMO
Plenty of slow and steady strengthening, but enjoy your horse. Any horse can go lame, blind, die of colic etc but for now you have a really nice, sound young horse who you should use if he's enjoying it.
 

CanteringCarrot

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I think that’s normal. The drop in a jumper landing is huge!

It is, but when your horse drops like a jumper landing...at the trot, then it's concerning. 😬

But what I am saying is that it's interesting the degree in drop 5 different horses can have doing the same movement at the same place/load during a movement.
 

Exasperated

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I do a groundwork and liberty work with him. We do a variety of maneuveres from the ground. He's very intelligent and receptive to it all.

He's already been backed and that occurred with zero issues. He isn't ridden extensively though. A light ride once or twice a week. Sometimes no rides and just from the ground. I try to stick with variety. We hand walk, do ground work, posture work, liberty, trick training, and he can longline too. The thing is that he loves something to do and always seems so content with himself afterward. I wanted to leave him turned away longer, but every time I came to the field he whinnied, came to me, and seemed desperate for something to do. So I try to give him different things to do without it being too much. He does get days off of course.

Finding that type of home would be extremely difficult here. On top of that I've looked for other riding opportunities and I'd have to drive 90+ min in the opposite direction from where he is and 60+ from home. So it ends up time and cost prohibitive.

We're in a dead zone of sorts and there aren't many local opportunities, if any. I've basically accepted the demise of my riding and skill level 😬
If he long reins, enjoys activity, and could do with that to build strength and muscle, why not consider harness work? No weight to carry, and a lightweight sulky/ exercise trap to keep him occupied - if you stick to surfaced roads and tracks, wouldn’t ‘sink’ either.
Hope you find something positive to do with him, anyway, good luck!
 

BBP

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Just for those not familiar with hypermobility. This is an example from BBP when he was older, average trot up a slight incline. That degree of drop is absolutely not desirable. You can see why he would not prefer the canter as his fetlock had nowhere else to go when increasing the speed and load through it. He didn’t have particularly long pasterns either, he was pretty beautifully put together. His fetlocks looked normal when standing, no drop. He did not have DSLD, just hypermobility.IMG_4924.jpeg
 

CanteringCarrot

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Just for those not familiar with hypermobility. This is an example from BBP when he was older, average trot up a slight incline. That degree of drop is absolutely not desirable. You can see why he would not prefer the canter as his fetlock had nowhere else to go when increasing the speed and load through it. He didn’t have particularly long pasterns either, he was pretty beautifully put together. His fetlocks looked normal when standing, no drop. He did not have DSLD, just hypermobility.View attachment 151967

The disturbing thing is that I've seen that much drop and/or fetlocks contacting the surface in dressage horses that are still out competing.
 

kchgax

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I wouldn’t treat him any different than any other horse, aside from potentially doing more strengthening work like hacking.

I’ve got a 17.2hh Irish Draught who I’ve owned since a 6yo that’s hypermobile. Exactly the same as the horse @BBP has described and matching the picture posted, too.

He’s now 16yo and he’s been the most reliable horse I’ve ever had in terms of soundness. He did strain a suspensory this year which he was no doubt pre-disposed to due to the hypermobility, but he did (almost) fall completely over on uneven ground which is what caused the injury. I plan to bring him back into work after Christmas as I would any other horse.

It’s such pot luck with horses - you could get something that’s not hypermobile that ends up with some other career ending issue.

Just do your best with the horse you have in front of you and see where you get to. It might not work out, but what if it does?
 

maya2008

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I had a hypermobile sports pony once. There was no waiting for her to find her own balance, she couldn’t. It was like riding a tipsy spider at first - legs everywhere, nothing straight, no idea what to do. She was 5 at backing, so not a huge amount of growing left to do either!

The experience of having her taught me why people teach the outline etc on the lunge first and then go straight there with a rider. Some horses need to be parked in an outline and literally held together by the rider while they strengthen and learn. She definitely did, which was the complete opposite of everything I had ever done/believed before! We hacked a lot (always in an outline until she learned to carry herself), did some work in an arena, and she muscled up. At that point, you could give her the reins and she could carry herself. I’d say she looked pretty normal by the time she found a new home. Her field buddies had even taught her how to fold her front legs to jump (her first efforts looked like superman) - watching them teach her one afternoon by jumping in and out of the long grass where we had moved the fence was a fascinating experience.
 

CanteringCarrot

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I had a hypermobile sports pony once. There was no waiting for her to find her own balance, she couldn’t. It was like riding a tipsy spider at first - legs everywhere, nothing straight, no idea what to do. She was 5 at backing, so not a huge amount of growing left to do either!

The experience of having her taught me why people teach the outline etc on the lunge first and then go straight there with a rider. Some horses need to be parked in an outline and literally held together by the rider while they strengthen and learn. She definitely did, which was the complete opposite of everything I had ever done/believed before! We hacked a lot (always in an outline until she learned to carry herself), did some work in an arena, and she muscled up. At that point, you could give her the reins and she could carry herself. I’d say she looked pretty normal by the time she found a new home. Her field buddies had even taught her how to fold her front legs to jump (her first efforts looked like superman) - watching them teach her one afternoon by jumping in and out of the long grass where we had moved the fence was a fascinating experience.

That's interesting. Mine jumped normally the one time he popped over a trail obstacle.

He's never felt discombobulated under saddle. It took a few rides to find a good balanced trot with a rider, but we also didn't trot much, and I think that's normal.

He doesn't feel like he needs to be held together. He's rather light and balanced. He often postures himself nicely and correctly. He feels great to ride. If I let him walk along on a loose rein in the fields, he does well and is in a nice long "frame" of sorts.

He's always been quite balanced with good body control. Even as a yearling out in the field. He impressed our last YO when he first went out at her place. For whatever reason, people tend to fall in love with this horse. He's a nice guy, but I find him annoying at times 🤣 he wants to get into things, put things in his mouth, visit with everyone, and just be interactive. I mean, baby boy horse I guess 🤷🏼‍♀️ he does have manners, but he's just interested in all things.

He was loose in the school and spooked at an item that's not normally in there. He spooked away twice and then approached it on his own because he HAD to find out more about it and touch it. He'd probably die in the wild 🤣 it was interesting to watch though!
 

maya2008

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That's interesting. Mine jumped normally the one time he popped over a trail obstacle.

He's never felt discombobulated under saddle. It took a few rides to find a good balanced trot with a rider, but we also didn't trot much, and I think that's normal.

He doesn't feel like he needs to be held together. He's rather light and balanced. He often postures himself nicely and correctly. He feels great to ride. If I let him walk along on a loose rein in the fields, he does well and is in a nice long "frame" of sorts.

He's always been quite balanced with good body control. Even as a yearling out in the field. He impressed our last YO when he first went out at her place. For whatever reason, people tend to fall in love with this horse. He's a nice guy, but I find him annoying at times 🤣 he wants to get into things, put things in his mouth, visit with everyone, and just be interactive. I mean, baby boy horse I guess 🤷🏼‍♀️ he does have manners, but he's just interested in all things.

He was loose in the school and spooked at an item that's not normally in there. He spooked away twice and then approached it on his own because he HAD to find out more about it and touch it. He'd probably die in the wild 🤣 it was interesting to watch though!
I would honestly stop worrying based on this and just see where life takes you. He doesn’t sound too bad at all, and will muscle up significantly with work. Crack on, put the foundations in, see what he shows ability at. Then you will have a nice horse that you can always sell on if he doesn’t turn out to suit you.
 

Michen

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That's interesting. Mine jumped normally the one time he popped over a trail obstacle.

He's never felt discombobulated under saddle. It took a few rides to find a good balanced trot with a rider, but we also didn't trot much, and I think that's normal.

He doesn't feel like he needs to be held together. He's rather light and balanced. He often postures himself nicely and correctly. He feels great to ride. If I let him walk along on a loose rein in the fields, he does well and is in a nice long "frame" of sorts.

He's always been quite balanced with good body control. Even as a yearling out in the field. He impressed our last YO when he first went out at her place. For whatever reason, people tend to fall in love with this horse. He's a nice guy, but I find him annoying at times 🤣 he wants to get into things, put things in his mouth, visit with everyone, and just be interactive. I mean, baby boy horse I guess 🤷🏼‍♀️ he does have manners, but he's just interested in all things.

He was loose in the school and spooked at an item that's not normally in there. He spooked away twice and then approached it on his own because he HAD to find out more about it and touch it. He'd probably die in the wild 🤣 it was interesting to watch though!

All the things that annoy you about Ronaldo I find enchanting about Atlas 🤣
 
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