wurzel
Well-Known Member
I have a 400 acre sheep farm in a national park with 28 fields surrounded by Beech hedges.
Not going to work is it?
Try again!
Not going to work is it?
Try again!
I am utterly fuming!!!
- Thread starter Nick_Carraway
- Start date
wrighty
Well-Known Member
"I have a 400 acre sheep farm in a national park with 28 fields surrounded by Beech hedges.
Not going to work is it?"
I think I mentioned chicken on that 1, let me see.
"NO chickens were ever taken by foxes because the owner spent some extra cash on fences to stop them getting in."
Yep, chickens.
OK, sheep.
HOW DO LAMBS DIE?
40% abortion and stillbirth
30% exposure and starvation
20% disease
5% congenital defects
5% misadventure and predation (including dogs and foxes) MAFF states that on average every fifth lamb dies shortly after birth. Foxes are not responsible for the majority of these deaths. Scientific studies in Britain find that between 0.5% and at most 3% of otherwise viable lambs may be taken by foxes. The economic losses as a result of this level of predation are small when compared to other causes of mortality. There are approximately 20 million breeding ewes in Britain; approximately 60% of these are in upland areas. These are the harshest areas of the country and nature takes a deadly toll on lambs. 17% of lambs born on the Scottish hills die within 24 hours of birth Taking into account the value of a lamb at market of approximately £362 and the estimate that three million lambs die before weaning every year figures suggest that losses to natural mortality can be huge. £103million of gross income is lost by farmers to causes of death not related to predation and misadventure MAFF considers that loss of lambs to foxes does not constitute a loss of economic significance to the farming community nationally
WHAT DO SHEEP FARMERS THINK?
70% lost no lambs to foxes
16% claimed they lost fewer than 5 lambs
14% claimed they lost more than 5 lambs
80% had no evidence that foxes took lambs
Better husbandry results in much lower lamb mortality and can therefore result in relatively great economic benefits compared to reducing fox predation. Lowland farmers generally report lower lamb mortality than upland farmers because of less harsh conditions and better husbandry. In Welsh mountain flocks the age and experience of the ewe increased survival of lambs. Increasing winter feed available to ewes reduces the number of lambs reportedly killed by foxes, implying that foxes are blamed for lambs lost because of poor husbandry.
Suggestions that the efficacy of overcoats in reducing lamb mortality is due to their role as fox deterrents were disproved by trials in New Zealand where foxes are absent. Exposure killed most lambs when, after an overnight storm, 87% of lambs with no overcoats died compared to only 5% fitted with overcoats.
Because foxes scavenge and kill lambs that are already dying, it is often argued that they are also a significant predator of healthy lambs. Foxes seen in lambing areas may be looking for afterbirth or lamb carcasses. However, they do also kill healthy lambs.
Domestic dogs are significant predators of lambs. The NFU estimates that sheep worrying by dogs causes between five and ten thousand lamb deaths a year.
On a large sheep-rearing estate in Scotland, fox control was stopped for three years but no evidence of increased predation was detected
In the same study, in the absence of fox control, less than 1% of lambs were found to have been killed each year by foxes.
I'll give you a while to read that.
Not going to work is it?"
I think I mentioned chicken on that 1, let me see.
"NO chickens were ever taken by foxes because the owner spent some extra cash on fences to stop them getting in."
Yep, chickens.
OK, sheep.
HOW DO LAMBS DIE?
40% abortion and stillbirth
30% exposure and starvation
20% disease
5% congenital defects
5% misadventure and predation (including dogs and foxes) MAFF states that on average every fifth lamb dies shortly after birth. Foxes are not responsible for the majority of these deaths. Scientific studies in Britain find that between 0.5% and at most 3% of otherwise viable lambs may be taken by foxes. The economic losses as a result of this level of predation are small when compared to other causes of mortality. There are approximately 20 million breeding ewes in Britain; approximately 60% of these are in upland areas. These are the harshest areas of the country and nature takes a deadly toll on lambs. 17% of lambs born on the Scottish hills die within 24 hours of birth Taking into account the value of a lamb at market of approximately £362 and the estimate that three million lambs die before weaning every year figures suggest that losses to natural mortality can be huge. £103million of gross income is lost by farmers to causes of death not related to predation and misadventure MAFF considers that loss of lambs to foxes does not constitute a loss of economic significance to the farming community nationally
WHAT DO SHEEP FARMERS THINK?
70% lost no lambs to foxes
16% claimed they lost fewer than 5 lambs
14% claimed they lost more than 5 lambs
80% had no evidence that foxes took lambs
Better husbandry results in much lower lamb mortality and can therefore result in relatively great economic benefits compared to reducing fox predation. Lowland farmers generally report lower lamb mortality than upland farmers because of less harsh conditions and better husbandry. In Welsh mountain flocks the age and experience of the ewe increased survival of lambs. Increasing winter feed available to ewes reduces the number of lambs reportedly killed by foxes, implying that foxes are blamed for lambs lost because of poor husbandry.
Suggestions that the efficacy of overcoats in reducing lamb mortality is due to their role as fox deterrents were disproved by trials in New Zealand where foxes are absent. Exposure killed most lambs when, after an overnight storm, 87% of lambs with no overcoats died compared to only 5% fitted with overcoats.
Because foxes scavenge and kill lambs that are already dying, it is often argued that they are also a significant predator of healthy lambs. Foxes seen in lambing areas may be looking for afterbirth or lamb carcasses. However, they do also kill healthy lambs.
Domestic dogs are significant predators of lambs. The NFU estimates that sheep worrying by dogs causes between five and ten thousand lamb deaths a year.
On a large sheep-rearing estate in Scotland, fox control was stopped for three years but no evidence of increased predation was detected
In the same study, in the absence of fox control, less than 1% of lambs were found to have been killed each year by foxes.
I'll give you a while to read that.
wurzel
Well-Known Member
I don't need a while to read it.
"Taking into account the value of a lamb at market of approximately £362 and the estimate that three million lambs die before weaning every year figures suggest that losses to natural mortality can be huge."
If you are going to paste lies from ALF sites we aren't going to get far"!
At which market did you see lambs making £362 ?
"Taking into account the value of a lamb at market of approximately £362 and the estimate that three million lambs die before weaning every year figures suggest that losses to natural mortality can be huge."
If you are going to paste lies from ALF sites we aren't going to get far"!
At which market did you see lambs making £362 ?
wrighty
Well-Known Member
Not ALF, I think most people in the ALF are a bunch of terrorists, threatening and harming people is as bad as harming animals.
OK, I didn't notice the £362, it does seem a bit high.
OK, I didn't notice the £362, it does seem a bit high.
wurzel
Well-Known Member
Yes. It is.
You have just made a bit of a fool of yourself.
Is there anything you know yourself without copying it off the internet?
Sheep farming, foxes, Red deer or hunting.
Know anything about these subjects?
Which was the last sheep mart you went to?
What were hogs making last Autumn?
You have just made a bit of a fool of yourself.
Is there anything you know yourself without copying it off the internet?
Sheep farming, foxes, Red deer or hunting.
Know anything about these subjects?
Which was the last sheep mart you went to?
What were hogs making last Autumn?
wrighty
Well-Known Member
If I said,"my mate John has been a farmer for 40 years and never lost a sheep to a fox" would be recieved the same as if I found it on the internet, you'll never believe me and you will always think of me as a hippy tree hugging towny, which is not correct.
Can you tell me excatly how many lambs are taken by foxes in the last 5 years? Probably not.
Why would I go to an sheep mart? I don't buy sheep therefore I don't need to go.
I admitted I didnt see the price stated and it is probably a bit high but from I can see NFU released some of the numbers, let me see what they say.
Can you tell me excatly how many lambs are taken by foxes in the last 5 years? Probably not.
Why would I go to an sheep mart? I don't buy sheep therefore I don't need to go.
I admitted I didnt see the price stated and it is probably a bit high but from I can see NFU released some of the numbers, let me see what they say.
wrighty
Well-Known Member
Causes of Lamb Mortality - UK
Disease & Malformations (16%)
Starvation/Exposure (35%)
Other (7%)
No Result (4%)
Infections (37%)
Predation (1%)
Source: Ministry of Agriculture (UK).
"The Ministry does not consider foxes to be a significant
factor in lamb mortality nationally."
OK, I know it's another copy off the web but it's sourse was Ministry of Ag...
Disease & Malformations (16%)
Starvation/Exposure (35%)
Other (7%)
No Result (4%)
Infections (37%)
Predation (1%)
Source: Ministry of Agriculture (UK).
"The Ministry does not consider foxes to be a significant
factor in lamb mortality nationally."
OK, I know it's another copy off the web but it's sourse was Ministry of Ag...
Sidesaddle
She who knows best
And we all know the government never lies or massages figures.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Why is breaking somethings neck cruel, its one of the quickest deaths.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Cor...£362 thats a profit and a half
And you sheep farmers pleased poverty T_F! Or was that that market in never, never land?magic104
Well-Known Member
My uncle farmed & he said that foxes taking lambs was a bit of a weak excuse for hunting them. He was not anti hunting though, but felt that some of the excuses were a bit lame. I also dont understand when people dont agree with hunting they get labelled as "tree huggers" & no knowledge of how the country side works, what is that all about?? Foxes like any other wild animal will have their population dictated by the food source.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Magic do you also wonder why people who hunt get labelled that they cannot be animal lovers? C'mon its swings and round abouts, 6 to one and half a dozen to the other.
If thats a weak excuse come to Wales and see it for yourself, 11 million sheep for the fox to choose from, I'm not sure where your uncle farmed but if it was in England then for one the foxes probably have a gazillion pheasants to pick off before even going near lambs...pigs will also take small lambs and there are too many of those due to the law.
I have to be careful with one of my dogs re. sheep. If I let her out wild like a fox she'd slaughter them and not neccessarily for food, just because its fun, why is it so hard for people to believe that foxes kill lambs?
If thats a weak excuse come to Wales and see it for yourself, 11 million sheep for the fox to choose from, I'm not sure where your uncle farmed but if it was in England then for one the foxes probably have a gazillion pheasants to pick off before even going near lambs...pigs will also take small lambs and there are too many of those due to the law.
I have to be careful with one of my dogs re. sheep. If I let her out wild like a fox she'd slaughter them and not neccessarily for food, just because its fun, why is it so hard for people to believe that foxes kill lambs?
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
'The English country gentleman galloping after a fox -- the unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable. '
Oscar Wilde
(Don't worry, I'm not pro or anti, just think this quote is funny)
S
Oscar Wilde
(Don't worry, I'm not pro or anti, just think this quote is funny)
S
magic104
Well-Known Member
"Magic do you also wonder why people who hunt get labelled that they cannot be animal lovers? C'mon its swings and round abouts, 6 to one and half a dozen to the other."
I dont see that label as often as the "tree hugging" one. At the end of the day if you believe in something you will always argue in favour of it, even if that means believing in statements not substantiated. I have never seen a fox stand up to a Ewe, but that does not mean it has never happened, & most Ewes will try to protect their lambs. Foxes have been studied & never seen to kill a cat, but as it is impossible to disprove. What I do know is that most grown/fit cats are pretty adapt at escaping a dog, so why would a fox have more chance of killing them. I, like my uncle (bless his sole) am not anti hunting, just not convinced by all the arguments/statements made, at times for the reasons for hunting them. Yet no body who is pro ever states what good the fox does do, ie help with the rabbit population, along with rats, mice etc
I dont see that label as often as the "tree hugging" one. At the end of the day if you believe in something you will always argue in favour of it, even if that means believing in statements not substantiated. I have never seen a fox stand up to a Ewe, but that does not mean it has never happened, & most Ewes will try to protect their lambs. Foxes have been studied & never seen to kill a cat, but as it is impossible to disprove. What I do know is that most grown/fit cats are pretty adapt at escaping a dog, so why would a fox have more chance of killing them. I, like my uncle (bless his sole) am not anti hunting, just not convinced by all the arguments/statements made, at times for the reasons for hunting them. Yet no body who is pro ever states what good the fox does do, ie help with the rabbit population, along with rats, mice etc
torque999
Well-Known Member
Sick domestic animals get vetinary care either to be cured opr PTS. A diseased fox can take many weeks to die. Hunting with dogs takes out diseased animals in a way no other form of control does.
wurzel
Well-Known Member
"If I said,"my mate John has been a farmer for 40 years and never lost a sheep to a fox" would be recieved the same as if I found it on the internet, you'll never believe me and you will always think of me as a hippy tree hugging towny, which is not correct."
Unfortunately you are wrong again. I am quite prepared to believe John has never lost a sheep to a fox. I have no idea if you hug trees or live in a town, but I do know that you know nothing about sheep farming.
"Can you tell me excatly how many lambs are taken by foxes in the last 5 years? Probably not."
No I can't. I can't tell you how many maggots I have seen either. I don't keep exact records of lamb losses. Why would I? It is a bit of a waste of time.
"Why would I go to an sheep mart? I don't buy sheep therefore I don't need to go.
I admitted I didnt see the price stated and it is probably a bit high but from I can see NFU released some of the numbers, let me see what they say. "
You might learn something I guess. When you say PROBABLY a bit high what do you mean? Is this an NFU quote?
Unfortunately you are wrong again. I am quite prepared to believe John has never lost a sheep to a fox. I have no idea if you hug trees or live in a town, but I do know that you know nothing about sheep farming.
"Can you tell me excatly how many lambs are taken by foxes in the last 5 years? Probably not."
No I can't. I can't tell you how many maggots I have seen either. I don't keep exact records of lamb losses. Why would I? It is a bit of a waste of time.
"Why would I go to an sheep mart? I don't buy sheep therefore I don't need to go.
I admitted I didnt see the price stated and it is probably a bit high but from I can see NFU released some of the numbers, let me see what they say. "
You might learn something I guess. When you say PROBABLY a bit high what do you mean? Is this an NFU quote?
Eagle_day
Well-Known Member
"The English country gentleman galloping after a fox -- the unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable. '
Oscar Wilde
(Don't worry, I'm not pro or anti, just think this quote is funny)
S"
But then you've taken it out of context. Wilde was writing about one man, not people who hunt in general.
Oscar Wilde
(Don't worry, I'm not pro or anti, just think this quote is funny)
S
"But then you've taken it out of context. Wilde was writing about one man, not people who hunt in general.
Eagle_day
Well-Known Member
"
And we all know the government never lies or massages figures."
And it's been called Defra since the Foot and Mouth disaster.
And we all know the government never lies or massages figures.
"And it's been called Defra since the Foot and Mouth disaster.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
"The English country gentleman galloping after a fox -- the unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable. '
Oscar Wilde
(Don't worry, I'm not pro or anti, just think this quote is funny)
S
But then you've taken it out of context. Wilde was writing about one man, not people who hunt in general.
People (namely antis or people with no opnion on hunting) always get muddled with that quote...
endymion
Well-Known Member
I come from an area riddled with sheep farms (Aberdeenshire), a high fox population and yet no hunting with hounds AND barely any support for it from farmers either. Spooky!
wurzel
Well-Known Member
Very Spooky!
But I couldn't really give a toss about Aberdeenshire, whereever it is.
I am only interested in hunting in this country.
But I couldn't really give a toss about Aberdeenshire, whereever it is.
I am only interested in hunting in this country.
wrighty
Well-Known Member
"Aberdeenshire, whereever it is"
If you don't know where it is how do you know it isn't in this country?
I think that is a bit of a large head burying moment, someone uses personal information about fox hunting and you don't even recognise the country it has happening (or not happening in this case)
If you don't know where it is how do you know it isn't in this country?
I think that is a bit of a large head burying moment, someone uses personal information about fox hunting and you don't even recognise the country it has happening (or not happening in this case)
Lvrees
Well-Known Member
We lost 49 chickens to a fox, I loved my chickens! A chicken is an animal, therefore I love an animal, making me an animal lover. I also love my horse, also being an animal, I love all horses (plural: animals). I love my dogs and all dogs (animals), I also love the countryside, the sheep, etc...
i.e, I love animals = animal lover.
Still hunt though.
Re. RG quote... I bet he has a small todger.
i.e, I love animals = animal lover.
Still hunt though.
Re. RG quote... I bet he has a small todger.
wurzel
Well-Known Member
Simple, you moron !
I know all the shires in my country and it is not one of them.
And the person in question has a tendency to make things up.
Says they are not a sheep farmer and then when it suits it, it seems to claim to know more than me.
Spooky!
I know all the shires in my country and it is not one of them.
And the person in question has a tendency to make things up.
Says they are not a sheep farmer and then when it suits it, it seems to claim to know more than me.
Spooky!
endymion
Well-Known Member
Check it out if you don't believe me, the NSA should have some info on sheep farming up there.
I think there once was a hunt around the place once upon a time but it is certainly not fox hunting country.
It is a good example of an area where sheep farming is prevalent and hunting with hounds is not. It kind of makes your argument look defunct.
.....and it's in NE Scotland by the way, moron xxx
I think there once was a hunt around the place once upon a time but it is certainly not fox hunting country.
It is a good example of an area where sheep farming is prevalent and hunting with hounds is not. It kind of makes your argument look defunct.
.....and it's in NE Scotland by the way, moron xxx
Eagle_day
Well-Known Member
Aberdeenshire isn't Devon, nor is it Lincolnshire. Thank God.
The reason why there is no tradition of mounted foxhunting in Aberdeenshire is probably the same as why most farmers mechanised in that area in the 1930's. Before the War, grass sickness was endemic there, especially round Alford, with a corresponding high death rate of farm and saddle horses.
Did you say you were local to there, Endy?
The reason why there is no tradition of mounted foxhunting in Aberdeenshire is probably the same as why most farmers mechanised in that area in the 1930's. Before the War, grass sickness was endemic there, especially round Alford, with a corresponding high death rate of farm and saddle horses.
Did you say you were local to there, Endy?
endymion
Well-Known Member
oh yes but I wasn't born till '81, lol!!
I do admire your google search BUT
Since foxhunting is an ancient 'sport' why isn't there a history of it pre 20th century?
and why hasn't it been brought back since?
My local game keeper there is in his 70's and couldn't give a toss about hunting with hounds, like most of the other farmers I know.
Aberdeenshire is a beautiful corner of the world, you are obviously as ignorant/arrogant as Faggus and in denial that sheep farming can exist perfectly well without hunting foxes with hounds. I mean there are how many sheep farms in Scotland?? I guess a fair few. And how many hunts? 9/10. However do we cope!!!
I do admire your google search BUT
Since foxhunting is an ancient 'sport' why isn't there a history of it pre 20th century?
and why hasn't it been brought back since?
My local game keeper there is in his 70's and couldn't give a toss about hunting with hounds, like most of the other farmers I know.
Aberdeenshire is a beautiful corner of the world, you are obviously as ignorant/arrogant as Faggus and in denial that sheep farming can exist perfectly well without hunting foxes with hounds. I mean there are how many sheep farms in Scotland?? I guess a fair few. And how many hunts? 9/10. However do we cope!!!
CARREG
Well-Known Member
"......However do we cope!!! ....", could it be something to do with the hundreds taken by terriers and lurchers every year...............Carreg
endymion
Well-Known Member
Hundreds? But there are > 100, 000 foxes in scotland. A few hundred per year is less than the annual birth rate. By your lots reckoning the population should have grown exponentially by now! A 3 year study by Aberdeen uni found that in the abscence of any form of pest control the fox pop did not grow.
wurzel
Well-Known Member
I could well be arrogant.
But i would say you demonstrate it superbly.
Your posts are full of implication, you imply that foxes have no impact on sheep farming. You imply that you know better.
This is fine. I admit that I am ignorant of what goes on in Aberdeen.
But no matter how shut your mind is, these are the animals that have an affect on my farm on Exmoor.....
Fox, Red deer, Badger, Rats, Crows, Magpies.
You believe what you want Endy, and get your info from another country. Its all the same to I.
But i would say you demonstrate it superbly.
Your posts are full of implication, you imply that foxes have no impact on sheep farming. You imply that you know better.
This is fine. I admit that I am ignorant of what goes on in Aberdeen.
But no matter how shut your mind is, these are the animals that have an affect on my farm on Exmoor.....
Fox, Red deer, Badger, Rats, Crows, Magpies.
You believe what you want Endy, and get your info from another country. Its all the same to I.