I attempted to teach flying changes... CC please?

Hoof_Prints

Hoof_Prints

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I don't have any dressage background, I just kind of make it up as I go along as if my horse understands , does what I ask and isn't stressed I am happy with it :o Have read a few books to get the basic idea.

After he was muscled up enough to be balanced etc I started teaching counter canter and to strike off on the correct lead by putting the outside leg back and offering a slight flex to the side. I did this using halt-canter and walk-canter transitions. he was confused at first but actually learnt that in a day! so after a couple of months getting that balanced I started flying changes on a figure of eight using a trot transition.
He struggled to do this without a trot transition so I moved on to changes down the long side using trot before I introduced a flying change in canter down the long side (he picked that up easier than on the figure of eight).

He hasn't been doing it very long really- but there are some clips of him in this video where he is giving it a good go! I know it is FAR from perfect and needs a lot of work which is why i'd like some CC and tips :) he's starting to get a bit straighter - was really all over the place to start with, so even though he's all wonky its an improvement !

Thanks for reading. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjD4seL_qes

Sorry the vid is 'artistically' done - as my friend said, but it has the clips in there
 
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He's sweet, and having a good go! IMHO you need to have a more balanced canter around the turn so you can ride forwards into the change rather than hooking him back and pulling him round to change the bend.
It's much better to try on a big figure of eight or on a diagonal, the change needs to come quietly from a good canter- try over a pole first.
 
Try doing figure of eights across school and changing through middle. What you're doing is just making him extremely unbalanced and making it hard for him and you.
 
Clearly can't read properly! But you're not really achieving anything or than messy sort of changes on a straight, you need a much better canter to start with.

He is lovely though.
 
Hi, I am no expert at all but I had some schooling help over the winter with my mare from a GP level dressage rider; dressage bootcamp as I called it. She said to me that the starting point is the quality of the canter. It needs to be balanced, rhythmical and engaged. She spent a few weeks first with my mare being very clear about the aids for canter and the leg she was asking for. She kept her outside leg back all the time in canter and did quite a lot of work in counter canter first. My mare got to the point of striking off correctly on whichever leg she was being asked for from a straight line. Then she introduced simple changes and really worked on these.

To teach a flying change she basically waited until my mare was ready and was almost offering them voluntarily. She established a good canter then rode a half circle, about 15m diameter and returned to the track in counter canter, again still being very obvious about the aids. As she met the track she asked for a change in the bend and changed the canter aids. Somehow my mare seemed to understand and most of the time offered the change. It wasn't always perfect, sometimes it didn't come from behind and they ended up disunited. However when my mare got it right she got big praise to help her understand she had done well.

I am not sure about teaching horses over a pole. I have heard some people say that it doesn't teach them to change from behind, so the change can be late behind or just disunited.

Others will know far more than me but I just wanted to share my (limited) experience. I'll be really interested to hear what other people's thoughts and experiences are.
 
Oh dear. I'm not going to be horrible and unconstructive, but please just get some lessons from a good dressage instructor. You have a very attractive and kind horse who will one day soon decide he doesn't appreciate this kind of mucking about. There is a logical and correct way to achieve flying changes, and it certainly won't happen if you continue in the way you are doing it.
 
youre doing really well as mine wont grasp it at all despite me asking properly and a dressage trainer trying.. but on a straight line watching carefully after his first change hes just unblanced and getting his legs in a knot. i would definately go back to a figure of eight or after coming across the diagonal then you can clearly ask him what to do and it will be less messy:) nut well done your getting there :)
 
I think some of the replies on here are a bit harsh & over serious, sometimes I think dressage riders like to make everything very complicated & mysterious.

You aren't getting a true change like this, sometimes he is trotting in front before he changes. I showjump now having retired from dressage & my mare was doing changes at 5, we didn't teach her counter canter as she just needs to change legs. The changes were a bit scrappy at first, but have improved as the canter has got stronger. Interestingly I had a dressage lesson from a decent pro who came to our yard, he said the changes were clean & I had done a good job with her way of going, so no great mystique.

Try to strengthen the canter, lots of transitions, walk to canter etc. I taught them by cantering across the diagonal keeping her straight & balanced in a nice rhythm, when you reach the track keep your inside leg on & put your outside leg back, make sure you sit square & don't lean in, change the flexion & tap behind your outside leg with a schooling whip to encourage the hind leg to step through & change. Eventually it will come & you will be able to change by putting your outside leg back, be careful not to try to pull him into the change.

Before I get shot down, if I were teaching them for dressage I would use true canter, trot counter canter, trot, round the edge. When that was established I would ride a serpentine, canter, trot over the centre line, canter & then replace the trot with an aid for a change. Good luck & remember its all meant to be fun, not some deadly serious deep mystery!!
 
I really really don't want to upset, but I didn't see a single flying change in your video :-(

Overall, the picture needs to be quieter, calmer and softer. I admire your enthusiasm and keeness to learn - there are lots of useful dressage schooling based dvds on amazon and videos on youtube from which you could further your knowledge and give you lots of new ideas on how to approach exercises and the overall look you are trying to achieve - personally I'd not try to walk before you can run, or rather don't feel rushed to do canter tricks until you have a really solid canter. How is your walk to canter, lots of work on that will help your horse be more balanced/straight/on hocks.

But keep on keeping on, you are clearly working hard and trying hard and aiming high, and thats a great approach to have!
 
I think you need to really work on his canter before you try any more changes, he looks really flat and the canter is not active and straight enough to support a change yet.

When he is stronger work on 20m circles changing across X, or on a diagonal, and ask for a change over a pole. This will help get the height and help the throughness, but seriously, a change all comes from the canter! Pulling him sideways won't help him, he needs to learn to do them straight! :)
 
firstly; may I say some people are being very rude and harsh in their replies..

secondly; what a lovely horse - gorgeous markings :)

thirdly; I would say either find yourself a good dressage instructor, it is MUCH easier having someone experienced on the ground to help you, and MUCH quicker to learn and grasp new movements rather than trying to figure it out yourself....and also, maybe try and do flying changes using a pole across the center of the school to produce a slightly bigger/rounder canter stride which will help when you ask for the leg change and make it easier for the horse. At the moment, you are in an unbalanced canter and so you are having to pull your horse into a sharp bend to achieve a flying change - which isn't a full one, nor is it balanced.

it should look like this; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUgnXKK0ris

here are a couple of videos you may find useful :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oA9xeffz_4 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCpT_4bHoY0
 
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Sorry I did post because I wanted some advice - not to be ridiculed thanks! I am only trying to do the best for my horse.

But thanks, there is some great advice and I will certainly take it on board and try to get it right :) I can't afford a GP horse or a GP dressage trainer so I have to make do with what I've got and learn from mistakes! No body is perfect.

I will leave the flying fails for a while and continue with his jump training as I know what I am doing there. Then return to it after I've educated myself a bit more! His canter is pretty good and balanced on small circles in general.
Big thanks again to everyone who had put such great advice and I will certainly have a good re-read and take it all in
 
He's gorgeous, i'm no expert but everything just looks a little rushed. Including the trot, i would just slow everything down and get it all a bit more relaxed.

I taught my ex-racer flying changes with a pole, so as he goes over the pole ask for a change. They seem to understand it better then and i did exaggerate the weight transfer at first, may be worth a try?

As i say - i'm no expert just speaking from experience. Of course nothing beats a lesson with an instructor you get on with :)

ETA: Please don't take notice of the derogatory tone of some replies.
 
Hoof_Prints said:
thanks, there is some great advice and I will certainly take it on board and try to get it right :) I can't afford a GP horse or a GP dressage trainer so I have to make do with what I've got and learn from mistakes! No body is perfect.
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no worries :)

but you don't need a GP dressage trainer (or a GP horse haha), don't worry! haha, I have a basic flat work instructor (I am no dressage diva so don't need an Olympic dressage trainer - I just have lessons with someone to do basic flat work and a bit of lateral work, she is £40 an hour, BUT I do know a lot of flat work instructors who give lessons for around the £25 mark, so if that's more within your price range then maybe have a look on google at BHS accredited teachers? :)

best of luck with it all anyway!
 
Sorry- I didn't mean to offend- the video just seemed to be mainly trot? Nice paces though :)
If you do quite a bit of jumping does he change lead over a jump? Dressage people don't tend to like it but if you want to get his changes functional (and maybe correct- depends on the horse- some will do it correctly and some will change infront first!) how about setting a jump up on the diagonal or over X heading to B/E and making it smaller, then to a pole, and then take the pole away? Might make the canter easier to ride too? My pony only does 'functional' changes which happen to be correct sometimes so no ideas on the technicalities of teaching it :o
 
Elsiecat - raras comment ;)

I'm not a horrible or nasty or professional by any means. I have no money and train my horses from scratch myself with very occasional lessons and still know that is how you definitely do not train to do a flying change. If you can afford lessons, buy a book, they're really useful :)

Flying changes aren't actually needed till adv med (I think) level so why teach the horse when things before are clearly not established enough.

There is being a pansy and being straight to the point. Horses like black and White, straight to the point. You pansy around with them they sit in the grey and never know what you mean and never will.

The horse is absolutely lovely and seems a shame to give it mixed signals and incorrect training.
 
Hoof_Prints said:
But thanks, there is some great advice and I will certainly take it on board and try to get it right :) I can't afford a GP horse or a GP dressage trainer so I have to make do with what I've got and learn from mistakes! No body is perfect.
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Aw.. Don't get put off:) I have lessons on a similar make & model and he does amazing flying changes. I've even got him to wait until I asked him to do it a few times lol :p
 
You don't need to have a top trainer just someone more experienced than you who's trained a horse flying changes.

You have a beautiful horse and he's forward going which is always a good start. In the clips you have posted it appears he needs to be more balanced in his work.

Whatever level you are at or whatever you are teaching your horse I always find it useful to have someone on the ground.

Here's another video that might help you :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UooIEEJAnaI
 
rachaelstar said:
Elsiecat - raras comment ;)

I'm not a horrible or nasty or professional by any means. I have no money and train my horses from scratch myself with very occasional lessons and still know that is how you definitely do not train to do a flying change. If you can afford lessons, buy a book, they're really useful :)

Flying changes aren't actually needed till adv med (I think) level so why teach the horse when things before are clearly not established enough.

There is being a pansy and being straight to the point. Horses like black and White, straight to the point. You pansy around with them they sit in the grey and never know what you mean and never will.

The horse is absolutely lovely and seems a shame to give it mixed signals and incorrect training.
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Maybe she wants to have some fun & teach her pony some tricks?? My previous mare competed up to elementary before she retired lame after an injury, she could do 2 time tempis, half steps ready for piaffe etc etc, none of which was required at elementary. It was attitudes just like this that made me fall out of love with dressage completely, far too serious, you shouldn't be doing this bla bla. I like nice flatwork because its important for a nice balanced sj round, I teach her some tricks because its fun & I enjoy it, I don't think there is anything wrong with that & I train with a decent pro who agrees with me & all of whose horses are lovely on the flat with established lateral work.

If you can't afford some lessons OP the you tube links Mandymoo put up will help you, but remember its all meant to be fun & we don't have to ride about with a deadly serious expression...
 
I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. My bog standard dumpy new forest pony does flying changes - he only competes at nov/elem level. But either way, training professionally or teaching tricks needs to be done properly and correct. Hauling the horse to one side and trying to change legs but falling into trot and dodgy striding is just putting the horse off balance, and not teaching him anything surely? If you get the basics right then everything else will come a lot easier!

Anyway, what do I know! I'm off to bed, have a lovely psg horse to ride first thing tomorrow morning! ;)
 
He's a very sweet horse with nice big paces. But he needs to learn to collect them up and get the hinds under him and an uphill collected canter and counter canter to obtain easy fluent changes.
Atm everythings too big, uncontrolled, flat and he needs to use his topline better so the changes are straighter and easier.
Id work on his collection to medium canters and increase topline strength and then canter, walk, canter transitions.
Lovely horse, good luck with him :)
 
I think you are having a really good try with little to no help, some of the tips from other posters are really good though - in particular referring to the figure of 8 and putting a placing pole in the middle to change, this worked for me.

Keep going you won't ruin him like some are insinuating.
 
b1ackhorse said:
I think you are having a really good try with little to no help, some of the tips from other posters are really good though - in particular referring to the figure of 8 and putting a placing pole in the middle to change, this worked for me.

Keep going you won't ruin him like some are insinuating.
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Thankyou Blackhorse, exactly the point I was trying to make. She is having a good try & enjoying learning, the pony won't drop dead because of the way he is being asked to change. Good for her for having the confidence to have a go instead of walking in endless circles in the quest for perfection.
 
Thanks everyone you have been so helpful I really appreciate it! Just the sort of thing I was after, I did highly doubt I was doing it right as I haven't had any outside input until now- my horse tries his very best at everything but is vey sensitive and lets me know when he is confused or doesn't like something! So I don't push his limits- he's just very clever and loves to learn so if I can do it right then it would be fantastic.

He can collect all three paces pretty well- I don't actually normally trot him like that, I tend to work him a lot more collected. I will have a look around for instructors as i'm pretty much by myself at my yard and have to do everything/work everything out for myself so it would be nice to have a bit of help :) !

I'm not the type to give up, both me and my horse are hard workers so if we get set along the right track it should be fine. Schooling wasn't in his vocab when I got him and he worked terribly overbent (literally head to chest and pulled my arms out) and couldnt jump at all so i'm proud of how far he's come- but I think I've reached my limit to what I can do by myself now.

I too do not want to give my horse any mixed signals, I will never pretend I know something when I don't- and I will take comments in any form to help me improve!

ETA- Working through videos now. very helpful thanks!
 
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What a lovely attitude you have Hoof prints :) I can't offer any advice on the flying changes but just wanted to say that he looks so much better then when you first got him so you must be doing something right! A few lessons will bring him on some more I'm sure and you'll be doing changes with ease.

Have fun with him, he looks a really lovely, genuine chap :)
 
Lovely looking horse! And one nasty poster, whom please ignore . Am no expert and there is no way I'd attempt flying changes on my mare just yet, I'm learning how to give the correct signals on a schoolmaster . Op not a criticism but reckon one or two lessons could do you the world of good as I always think someone on the ground is a massive help.... And try putting your stirrups down a bit:)
 
Jeez some really uncalled for comments on here.

OP is hardly thrashing her horse or yanking it's mouth left, right and centre! :rolleyes:

I would try and get as many lessons as you can afford/fit in OP (I plan to do this myself this summer as I am so rusty at the schooling side of things now!!:o).

Lovely horse, and lovely riding too. Just need a bit of help with the fine tuning, which we all do! :)
 
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