i feel like im taking 2 steps forward and 3 steps back with my youngster....help me!!

I got one of mine when he was just coming up two. Never had a smack or been told off in his life and dear god what a nightmare he was! Spoilt little (actually rather big) brat. Ive had so many problems with him, I too didnt want to go down the 'beat it into submission'(not thatanyone here has suggested that) but in the end it got silly. It went from him running ahead and having a few silly moments to kicking out, breaking my mums hand, a hoof in the stomach, one in the leg etc and a few narrow misses to the head. After that, things changed. It took him a while to get used to the 'no' word and the occasional smack but now 99% of the time he's a lamb. Don't forget that if he walks all over you then in the long run he's then above you in the herd and he becomes the boss. When a scary situation strikes he then has no one to look to for reassurance as he's already at the top which can lead to a scared, insecure young horse, not a great situation. Remind him who is boss :) I agree with the adlib hay also, if you can. Best of luck!
 
AengusOg- when dealing with 500kg of muscle I think a smack isnt going to be detrimental to its well being. And yes what they do to each other in their field IS important to take on board, its the behavoiur that they are used to. We almost have to replicate some of it as they only see us as part of the herd.
 
Chels... you have been given some more good advise on this thread as well as your other thread.

He possibly needs to learn where his boundaries are, and there may well be more than one route to this.

However, one thing I find interesting is human nature. I have been bitten by horses before, and the natural reaction is whack it back!
 
Sounds to me that you are doing a good job BUT he is growing up and trying to see who is going to be boss. This is a good sign really as a horse without the spirit to challenge the heirachy sometime is never going to have the heart and fire you need. The trick is to get that to work for and not against you. A jerk on the rope, an OI! and above all firm body language - front on and a determined eye until he backs down each and every time- should help. I have just been reschooling a little monster who bit, reared and bucked constantly and who had scared his previous owners to death, he had also obviously had the crap beaten out of him with the only result that he was more agressive than ever. I have NEVER hit him on the ground but only faced him down and REWARDED the moment he was calm. He is now as good as gold as was the youngster I backed myself in the same way. Keep at it and you'll win.
 
AengusOg said:
Op, I think you are quite right to avoid smacking your horse. There are other ways to manage unwanted behaviour than to use violence.

All this crap about horses doing various things to each other in the field really has no bearing on the situation. Hitting horses is not on, as far as I'm concerned.
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How can you say that!!? Horses punnish eachother for bad behaviour with a bite (which Bl**dy hurts) or a kick (which also bl**dy hurts) when this bahaviour is repeated, the punnishment is repeated until said horse learns to respect it's fellow herd members. Some people fail to realise that some horses have VERY strong personalities and need much firmer reprimands to keep them in their place.

I'm not up for beating horses up but a short sharp slap can be all that is required to achieve this.

My youngster was very similar to OP's as a youngster and I was very against 'violence' and now he's a strapping 17.2hh 5 year old it's caused me no end of problems and i have been forced to get tough. It has worked and I now have a very respectful, handleable horse.
 
AengusOg said:
Op, I think you are quite right to avoid smacking your horse. There are other ways to manage unwanted behaviour than to use violence.

All this crap about horses doing various things to each other in the field really has no bearing on the situation. Hitting horses is not on, as far as I'm concerned.
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ive just gone back through all of the comments to my post and first off i want to apologise if i came across as though i didnt want to take your advice and tips its just he is my baby and i guess my defence bars came down!!

the reason why i feel that i dont need to use slapping is because from him being a baby and me doing all this work with him, the rearing, biting, kicking out ect was all solved with no violence what so ever, i just backed him up and yanked down on the lead rope and then one day it was as if he thought 'ok i need to do as im told, this behaviour is getting me no where' and from that day he has done everything perfectly with no naughty behaviour what so ever....its just this past week he has been trying it on!! thats why i feel i dont need to use my fists/hands because ive overcome all of his naughty behaviour without.

thanks to everyone who has commented and i really appreciate your tips and advice but whats important here is that i establish what the right thing is to do for my youngster!! i have seen some horse react badly to the odd slap and then like most of you have stated its good for them to learn whose boss!!

thanks again...im determined to come through this with my boy!!!!
 
Mine was like this at 18 months and on and off until two and a half. She needed very firm guidelines and - yes- the odd smack. Not a hiding but a shock. I now have the most wonderful four year old who respects me and is a delight in every way. At your stage though (when she bit a chunk out of my side) I doubted myself and what on earth I was doing. I also walked her out inhand to see life and this gave her something to think about.
Don't give up but do make sure you set the boundaries and he respects them every time. Good luck!
 
chels90 said:
the rearing, biting, kicking out ect was all solved with no violence what so ever, i just backed him up and yanked down on the lead rope .... thats why i feel i dont need to use my fists/hands because ive overcome all of his naughty behaviour without.
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I'd be interested to know why you feel that 'yanking down on the leadrope' is preferable to, say, a slap on the chest of a bargy horse?
 
I think you will find that a yank on a pressure halter is just as violent and painful as a tap or a slap with the hand! Fine if you want to use that method but don't kid yourself it is 'kinder' than a smack with a hand!
 
look i appreciate your comments but can you please not turn funny about this....like i keep saying i joined this website for advice not for people to snigger and snarl and criticise...theres to many people like that in the horsey world and its just not fair!
 
I'm not sniggering, snarling or even criticizing - just trying to encourage you to think more deeply about the different training methods that are available and learn to evaluate them wisely.
 
TGM said:
I think you will find that a yank on a pressure halter is just as violent and painful as a tap or a slap with the hand! Fine if you want to use that method but don't kid yourself it is 'kinder' than a smack with a hand!
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My thoughts too.

OP, if there is not enough grass in the field he may just be very hungry. Afterall if he comes in and knows he is getting a feed and net, he will just want to skip to that part and won't want to be groomed and fussed over. I eould either feed hay out in the field, before he comes in. Or tie him up with a net whilst you groom, then give him his feed. If he stops the striking and prancing then you have your answer. If he continues then it does sound like he is testing you and I have to agree a short sharp smack on the shoulder would do wonders!
 
TuscanBunnyGirl said:
I got one of mine when he was just coming up two. Never had a smack or been told off in his life and dear god what a nightmare he was! Spoilt little (actually rather big) brat. Ive had so many problems with him, I too didnt want to go down the 'beat it into submission'(not thatanyone here has suggested that) but in the end it got silly. It went from him running ahead and having a few silly moments to kicking out, breaking my mums hand, a hoof in the stomach, one in the leg etc and a few narrow misses to the head. After that, things changed. It took him a while to get used to the 'no' word and the occasional smack but now 99% of the time he's a lamb. Don't forget that if he walks all over you then in the long run he's then above you in the herd and he becomes the boss. When a scary situation strikes he then has no one to look to for reassurance as he's already at the top which can lead to a scared, insecure young horse, not a great situation. Remind him who is boss :) I agree with the adlib hay also, if you can. Best of luck!
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Had exactly the same kind of thing with my now 17hh 3y/o, when they do kick off you cannot physically get out of the way fast enough!

I resorted to a dually halter, tightenend up her routine, removed all treats and threw in a few well timed elbows, pokes and slaps. It worked, we are back in lamb phase, long may it continue! I also worked on just telling her to stand. I put my hand up (like a policeman!) say "stand" and then walk all around her at the end of a very long leadrein. She now understands and doesn't move a muscle, whilst being 100% aware of where I am. When I go back to her head and give her a scratch she is pleased as punch with herself!

I would also give your pony his feed first, he's bound to get tetchy!
 
I don't think anyone on here has been funny with you, you've had some good advice. If you post for help you will always get it- though it doesn't necessarily mean people will say well done, you're doing the right thing, if they think there are alternatives. Hopefully you can get him sorted, the main thing to remember is many youngsters try it on, and more than once!
 
I think sometimes there is the temptation to handle and mess about with youngsters too much. I know the ones we've handled the most have turned out a bit 'in your face' the 4 yr o.d which wasn't handled much at all except to have her feet done etc is so polite. Let him be a horse, turn him away with others if possible he's got the rest of his life to be groomed, tied up etc.
 
I'd also stop the food unless he looks poor, maybe if you have to feed something, just feed a balancer for young stock. It does sound as if he's testing his boundaries and although you are against giving him a smack, he won't know right from wrong unless you do.
When they are in the field with others, their dam or other horses will give them a nip if they over step the mark, humans need to do the same unfortunately.
 
Lots of good advice already. The only thing that concerns me is you saying the field will soon be divided into your own. If that means he won't have young or playful companions, then you can expect far worse. Young horses need an older one to guide them, & playmates to amuse them. If not, you'll become the playmate!
And just as an example, on our yard a lady had a youngster the same age as daughters pony. Ours came as a fear aggressive yearling with issues, is an opinionated mare, & naturally rather energetic & playful. Hers was a well handled yearling, naturally a ploddy, relaxed calm sort. Ours hasn't actually been hit, but I have used dominant body language, & the odd elbow. Hers has never had a raised voice, & giving him a kick back when he tries to kick is supposedly cruel, & lots of similar silly comments. She's quite happy to mess about & use a dually though, rather than a sharp no. End result is that ours is a very well mannered 5yr old. She still struggles to lead him, pick out feet etc. However, myself, others, farriers, vets etc, have no trouble. He's just sussed she's a muppet.
 
If there really is no grass and hes just having a bucket of fizzy food once a day he may well have ulcers, which tend to encourage bad behaviour.
 
I just get a bit irate when I see horse behaviour in the herd cited as a reason to condone slapping horses.

Of course horse behaviour has great bearing on how we should train them. Of course horses will be physical amongst themselves on occasion, and of course the forces involved will be much greater than any generated by an open hand slap, but we must remember that horses give lots of signals and warnings before they resort to violence, and that most often violence is nullified through horses' abilities to read these signals and take warning.

Humans, unless they live with the herd all the time, are only ever going to be occasional and brief visitors who frequently remove a member for variable lengths of time. Their understanding of herd dynamics and hierarchy, and of signalling during interaction will be greatly lacking, to say the least, and in many cases will be nil.

The horse which has been removed from the herd will, unless it has a thorough education to rely upon, always be uncertain of its position in the hierarchy in the horse human herd. The fact that it is away from the relative comfort of the horse herd will only ensure that it will, through insecurity, immediately attempt to assume an advanced hierarchal position over its handler.

The human must be able to read the signals such a horse, particularly a young one, will exhibit, and must respond accordingly to help the horse to find security as a lower-ranking herd member. This means teaching the horse to yield and to be moved around by the handler, so that this response to pressure becomes habitual.

This is what signals to the horse that he can put his trust and confidence in his handler.

If the handler mis-reads, or totally misses, the signals from the insecure horse, failing to respond in timely and appropriate manner, the horse will act upon his perception of the handler and will exhibit challenging behaviour.

Handlers who hit horses have missed much of what the horse has been signalling, and have failed to educate the horse in a progressive and enlightening way which would take away the need for physical reprimand.

Physical reprimand of young uneducated horses destroys trust and damages confidence.
 
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AengusOg said:
Handlers who hit horses have missed much of what the horse has been signalling, and have failed to educate the horse in a progressive and enlightening way which would take away the need for physical reprimand.
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As does namby pambying about with them. I have seen umpteen horses ruined by owners too scared of the horse to handle it/repremand them appropriatly. They are nearly all very angry individuals, because they think they are the leader of the herd.

Correct behaviour around them normally rectifies the problem. Which will normally involve a slap at one point when you get bitten in the face (which has happened to me).
 
AengusOg said:
Humans, unless they live with the herd all the time, are only ever going to be occasional and brief visitors who frequently remove a member for variable lengths of time. Their understanding of herd dynamics and hierarchy, and of signalling during interaction will be greatly lacking, to say the least, and in many cases will be nil.

QUOTE]

See I totally disagree with you on this. I have 2 horses and when I enter the field I am the herd leader & rarely have to reprimand my boys but if they cross the line they get a short sharp smack then its forgotten.

I am the proud owner of two very well manered horses who will 99.9% of the time do whatever I ask of them because they know and trust me as I have shown them I am a good leader with clear bounderies.
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See, I adhere to the view that handling and reprimand cannot go together. One either mis-handles a horse and has to reprimand it for the failures in its handling, or one handles a horse appropriately and reprimand becomes unnecessary.

Hitting horses is a bit like taking a child's hand to cross the road and beating it halfway across because it can't tell you what speed the cars are travelling at. The aim is to teach the child to cross the road safely. Further education falls into place sequentially.
 
So what would you do with a horse that leans out of its stable and bites your face when you are merely walking past? Say there there nice horsey... it doesnt matter?
 
Aengus, you have the full on NH view that anyone who does it any other way is an idiot. I can move my horse around, he is lovely to do anything with. I don't just slap him out the blue, he gets warning and every opportunity to tick the box. I have even kicked him once, I was putting fly repellent on him last year and he lashed out at me - no warning - I kicked him back. He has never done it again and I can assure you he isn't scared of me in the slightest.
 
Sounds like he's going through the Kevin stage of becoming a teenager and wanting to push the boundaries. Mine is too. Just means you've got to be firmer with the boundaries and not ask him for too much.

I wouldn't do individual turnout with a youngster unless it was unavoidable - much nicer for them to spend time grazing with and able to groom, be disciplined by, play with another horse if possible.
 
M_G said:
See I totally disagree with you on this. I have 2 horses and when I enter the field I am the herd leader & rarely have to reprimand my boys but if they cross the line they get a short sharp smack then its forgotten..
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I have six, three females and two geldings and a colt. I have never hit any of them, nor have any members of my family. My two children can interact with them, under supervision, and in circumstances where the kids and the horses are safe. The colt's interaction with the kids is over the stable door, but the others are always visited in the fields.

Of course I'm under no illusion that my horses are 'normal'. I'm lucky in that they live in a stable herd and have done for some years now. They don't get titbits or any treatment which would encourage jealous behaviour. They all come forward in the group order dictated by their hierarchy within their herd, and get attention in the form of a scratch or groom, then they are asked to move away to allow others to approach.

I don't always use head tack and ropes to move them about between grazings. Sometimes we just drive them in front of us and through gates. This undoubtedly has an influence on how they view us, and is the basis of the respect they have for us.

They can be removed from the herd in any order and any combinations with only the odd neigh between them.

They all catch, tie, lead, and some are ridden, have been driven, and are long-reined as well, and I have never ever had to raise my hands to any of them, and I don't shout at them either.

And...I have nothing to feel guilty about because I haven't ever hit them. They have never experienced it, so it cannot taint our relationship.
 
wench said:
So what would you do with a horse that leans out of its stable and bites your face when you are merely walking past? Say there there nice horsey... it doesnt matter?
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No, it does matter, but you have to ask yourself why the horse does this. You have to admit it is not normal behaviour.

If my children came home from school and smashed up their rooms, I would want to know what had happened whilst they were at school to turn them from good boys into destrctive boys. I wouldn't beat them and then ask.
 
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