I genuinely believe that you should not have a young horse

QR. (& really rushing!!!)

The main thing is for horses & people to be happy with one another.

Young horses & novice riders can be a potential disaster zone, but how disasterous depends on the person & whether or not they will take advice (especially if that advice is unsolicited)

FF, If you really think that people who break & school need even more experience than you've got then theres going to be a real shortage of people with either the time or inclination to do either!!!

I was 12 when I had my first pony, an unbroken three yr old, and I come from an 'unhorsey' background. I read books, & very quickly realised that books have to be adapted to RL!!

That pony stayed with me all his life. Sure we had our ups & downs, & he had a real jump, & we won heaps of rosettes competing against far 'better' ponies & riders. My limitations as to what we could do were finance, not ability so I dare say he never reached his full potential either, but he had a happy secure life, & was loved.

I still haven't competed to the levels that you have, but have broken & schooled many other young horses, & am confident that when they leave me they are well mannered, confident animals, who are ready to make someone happy in whatever sphere they are most suited for.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I get paid to school peoples horses, I get paid to teach, and I compete BSJA, school up to 1.20 at home and medium dressage, but STILL I dont think I have the experience to educate a young horse....even though I probably do!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry dont take this the wrong way are you qualified to teach, bhs registered and insured?
 
I always buy young horses as I cannot afford to buy the type of quality horse I like unless it is a baby. I seek constant professional advice from top level trainers, I also send my horse to my trainer to help if I am trying to teach something tricky. I am a competant rider having owned horses for over 20 years, I am BHS qualified and have a HND in Equine science. As a teenager, I always ended up buying horses that had been spoilt by other people to retrain I know my stuff, however, even in my position I constantly seek advice & help with my youngsters to ensure I am not responsible for limiting their potential as a competition horse.

Unless you learn in a supervised way, you will never be capable of training a young horse and eventually we will have a generation of riders who can only ride ready made pre-schooled horses. What worries me more are so called professional riders/horse breakers (not the greats out there but the low-level professionals who will often take advantage of novice owners who are impressed by their smooth talking & often short term success) who charge for training young horses when actually with their rough & ready methods shouldn't even be allowed near a schoolmaster. I'm sure everybody can think of at least one 'trainer' like that! (No, I'm not getting at genuine professionals, just the ones who are out to make a fast buck without the ability to do a proper job of training a horse). At least amateaur owner/trainers have got their horses best interest at heart, will do the best they can for their horse & hopefully will enjoy the whole training process. Afterall, training horses is meant to be a challenging pleasure isn't it?
 
I've been involved in starting horses for about 25 years now, getting on at least a couple hundred first time and, for the last few years, doing them completly by myself (as is my preference and my system). The vast majority of the ones I've kept track of seem to have worked out for whatever they were destined for. I've also made a fair bit of my money retraining "problem" horses and working with horse/human couples that have hit problems. I have to say the latter has very much informed my thoughts on the former.

My experience has taught me that starting horses is both more complicated and more simple than I ever thought when I had less experience. Being able to track horses - my own students and other people's - has really allowed me to see patterns and how often things that seem relatively benign early in the game lead to serious behavioural/physical issues later. How horses that *seem* to be fine end up far from it in the end. I've seen how lack of knowledge about position, development, training scales, physical abilities etc. can lead directly to problems down the line, often in ways that seem unrelated on the surface. Quite frankly, it's made me far, far more careful and thoughtful to have a good working knowledge of how easily and how permanently things can go off the rails at an early stage.

But then again, the actual process is, on the surface at least, much more simple. I don't do half the amount of "stuff" I used to do and I'd have to say by and large my horses are better for it. The trainer has to stay calm but reactive, be patient but not inflexible, be knowlegable but willing to learn, take time but keep his/her eye on the end goal, be understanding but decisive, have good feel for the horse but not take things personally . . . . these traits, unfortunately, do come more easily to some than others. Plus, the trainer has to have time and suitable facitlities - these are MUCH more important than many people seem to think to ensure a good outcome.

And it does depend far more than people seem to think on the individual horse. I've had some that quite frankly, a monkey could have started. Others made me almost cry in frustration. A few have endangered me seriously, even with every care taken. The problem is you don't always know what you've got at first glance. Careful study of bloodlines and testing of the horse can help gauge it's suitability but even then, things happen. The trick is to recognise problems before they start and fix them as quickly as possible.

It is true the only real teacher is experience. However there is a world of difference between getting experience with knowledge already in place and proper supervision/advice and just having a bash at it. When I was young my mentor SCREAMED at me when I screwed up and I had to listen. They didn't let me get into situations they thought I couldn't handle and they removed me forcibly when I did anyway. If they thought I was screwing a horse up I was taken off it for the horse's sake.

And that seems to be the part that gets lost sometimes. The horse is the one that pays.

The whole "living up to potential" thing is difficult. I had a fantastic event horse I bought green when I was young and people told me all the time I should give him to a team hopeful to ride (I even got a call from the federation about it). I was doing well with him and he was healthy so I told them all to bugger off but I have to say I often felt guilty. A friend at the time with a horse at the same level made a different decision and her horse got a good place at the Olympics with another rider. But her horses went for about 18 months at the top level and retired unsound. Mine is 24, still sound, showed up to last year, and is still loved and cared for. Who's to say whose life was better? And to be fair I had EXCELLENT instruction and supervision while I was developing him.

That said the catch is that horses with great potentional are often the least suitable for inexperienced people to experiment on. They are, by definition, the quickest, the sharpest, the most athletic and the most competative of the bunch. And their presence in most of our lives is new, a result of AI, which now lets anyone breed to any stallion they can afford. I don't know how many people I've seen breed to super high powered studs with hardly "amateur friendly" reputations thinking somehow they're going to get a nice riding horsie. The breeding farms that develop those horses have some of the best young horse trainers in the world working for them and even they don't get every horse to work out.

Which is another factor. There is some attrition in breeding and starting horses - not all of them work out. Someone with one horse has to be MORE careful than a big professional operation because they can't afford to have it not work out.

Ludger Beerbaum said, "Success is the sum of good decisions." I think that's a great quote. What I do wish is that, given the "fashion" for having young horses now, people gave a little more thought BEFORE they started and really looked at both themselves and their circumstances. Risks can be minimised but that takes planning. And it's essential to remember it's the horses that bear the real brunt if the risks don't come off.
 
I had my first young horse at the age of 14.
He had been broken, turned away and that was that. He was a pure TB.
I had been riding ponies and the pony before was one of those highly strung crazy ponies. (Chestnut mare and fizzy as hell).

I had private lessons once a week for years.

We competed at Dressage,Show Jumping. He never really liked cross country.

I really don't think I could have done anything better at that time. I certainly don't consider it a mistake. Infact since then I have only ever had young horses. The next horse I broke in myself, and the next and the next and the,,,

All I can think is I was obsessed with horses, If I wasn't being taught I was reading, if I wasn't reading I was talking horses, I was very fit and had a very good seat. I was always (Still do) disect each session and think what would be the next best step to take.

It depends on the individual.

As with everthing horsey, you just can not make sweeping statements and get away with it.
cool.gif
 
i totally agree about the so called "professional riders/horse breakers" - a friend of mine bought a nice, friendly, unbacked 3 yr old and asked me to start it for her. i agreed, but asked her to wait 3 weeks as i had a 3-day event coming up and didn't want to risk getting crocked. i suggested she play around with the horse, get to know him, etc. 3 weeks didn't sound much to me, with a new 3 yr old.
no, she didn't want to wait, so she sent him to a 17 year old who had set up as a horse-breaker. two weeks later, the horse was rearing at people and attacking them, and he wanted it off the yard as it was 'dangerous'. she then asked if i'd consider having it now to try to put right.
as i work on my own, i thought it was too big a risk by then... unfortunately, she sold it to a dealer for about 1/3 what she'd paid for it. i hope it went to someone good, to sort it out, but i doubt it.
what 17 year old knows enough to set up like that? absolutely ridiculous. poor horses.
i still feel guilty, and it wasn't even my horse.
frown.gif
frown.gif
frown.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I genuinely believe that some older horses are a lot harder to ride than a youngster

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the reason's I went for a 3-4 year old was because I've had horses in the past that have been ruined by previous owners and riders.
 
AM I totally agree with you here. Out of interest who is it on here that you are talking abiout (pm me if you prefer)
Maybe FF will probably class me as one of the people that shouldnt have youngsters. I bought a foal some few years ago and thought it would be great to have a youngster from scratch. Id have a few youngsters and brought them on from just being backed. One was a quirky IDXTB and the other a WBx but this foal is a different case altogether. However I have successfully bred a foal last year and she is a different kettle of fish altogether again.
They always say theres always one horse that is going to get you to reassess the way you do things. Whell my first foal is it.
She was the first horse I broke from scratch and it couldntve gone better but sometimes I feel out of my depths with her (always doubt myself even though I am competant and know what im doing) and I feel that im not doing the best by her. I have regular lessons and all my instructors are telling me im doing the right thing (so I must be). We are getting there but its taking a lot longer than I expected for things to click. She tests me all the time (if not too much)
Thing is, I never bought this horse with the thoughts of bringing her on and selling her. If I make mistakes, ill learn from them, change what ive done and then hopefully I wont do make the same mistake on my next youngster.
 
Totally agree.
Perhaps for the original poster its a lack of confidence? I have had youngsters and have just got on with it - I think a lot is common sense. I now have an unbroken 9 year old
grin.gif
who Im going to back to western. She's a doll. But then I wouldnt take on a horse to back myself that didnt have a calm and easy temperament, in the same way I wouldnt buy one for riding that was difficult.
I do agree you have to have confidence and maybe a bit of bravado? No good getting on their backs and being scared out your wits.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get paid to school peoples horses, I get paid to teach, and I compete BSJA, school up to 1.20 at home and medium dressage, but STILL I dont think I have the experience to educate a young horse....even though I probably do!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry dont take this the wrong way are you qualified to teach, bhs registered and insured?

[/ QUOTE ]

Am insured, you do not have to have BHS qualifications to teach, my trainer has no qualifications, and as far as I am aware, neither does my old pony club instructor...or many others for that matter. I dont advertise, its through word of mouth, only teach 6 people a week and they all know I am not an AI!
 
It depends on horse and rider. My daughter has a 5 year old that she is struggling with, she has ridden and schooled youngsters for years and her last pony was bought as a problem, she is now an absolute gem, she must be because I ride her now!. She wanted to go down the youngster route as she was so fed up with having ponies with problems that she has had to rectify. She is absolutely gutted that things are not working out.
 
My 2nd pony was a 2 year old off Bodmin Moor, I ruined her, I admit it, but she's 22+ now and has had a very happy life with her new owner who purchased her when she was 6 as a broodmare but man could she jump!!! The next pony was 2 year old, and was sold as a 4 year old and went on to have a fantastic career in the showing world as did her cousin my next horse a 3 year old. My first stallion was a 2 year old, broke him, very long job but won at County Show Level under saddle, my next stallion again a 2 year old that I broke went on to do pony hunter trials (may have been gelded by new owner by then not sure). I think the original poster lacks confidence in their ability. I love taking on young/problematic horses that need to be rebuilt from the ground up - not the ones that you get on and ride straight away. I like to build a relationship of trust with the horse before I move on to riding. The horse I have now is 10 maybe 11 years old but I have no idea if he'd ever been ridden before I took him on 2 years ago. He's gone from riding like a camel that can't jump to a gorgeous dressage prospect that is currently jumping 2'6" with ease. Its a real shame that we don't have transport or the financial backing to get him out competing. Our training is at his pace so that he is happy throughout.

It all depends on the person and the horse and you should not make sweeping generalisations. Yes there are idiots out there who think they know it all and can take on a youngster and yes it is sad when it all goes wrong. But thats life. You're never going to stop it from happening. On the other hand, everyone has to start somewhere.
grin.gif
 
I know what you are saying FF, but I can't agree wholeheartedly with you here; at least not for every inexperienced person with a youngster.

As many are probably aware, I have a few novice owners on my yard. All of these novices have horses under 4 years old. All of them are doing exceptionally well with their youngsters, however all of them, bar one, have always been under my supervision. None of the ones under my supervision have made any irreversible mistakes, their horses are now riding out quietly, the owners have almost perfected their riding skills to compliment the young horses; this has been helped by me giving them one of my seasoned older horses where they have been able to learn the beauty of sitting quietly, giving subtle aids and getting used to each of the gaits. My older horses forgive their mistakes, the owners know they have been given a reprieve by my horses, and they also know fine well that this reprieve my horses have allowed could possibly have had undesirable consequences had they been on their youngsters.

My guys, thankfully, are not stupid people. They WANT to learn, not only for themselves but they realise how important it is to get things right with young horses.

In the earlier days of backing, they have each made very tiny unridden mistakes, always with the groundwork, and mainly by being inconsistent or not fully understanding why they are doing what they are doing and perhaps haven't thought through what the objectives are with the particular part of the training. When this has happened, they have called me over and they have ASKED.

I am actually very very proud of my ladies - I think they have come a very long way and even though they only started about a year ago with their horses, I am so pleased with their progress and the progress of their horses......and most importantly, so are they! The smiles and laughter I see on my yard is a just reward for me.

I think the moral is, for someone with good common sense and a will to learn from people around them, that some novice people can have youngsters. Not all of them will ruin their horses, not all of them turn a blind eye to learning, not all of them hide their heads in the sand, therefore we can't really categorise them.

Finally, if Amymay is talking about the same young person with the bay that I am thinking of, then yes I completely agree with her. This person has done an absolutely fantastic job and it has been a joy for me to read and see the wonderful progress both she and her horse have made.
smile.gif
 
I'd rather come across a horse owner who stopped and asked for help with their youngster than one who thought they knew it all. as someone said the other day, experience does not equal knowledge. I've seen middle aged women who have been riding since they could walk completely ruin horses.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen middle aged women who have been riding since they could walk completely ruin horses

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that, I completely agree with. So have I.
crazy.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen middle aged women who have been riding since they could walk completely ruin horses

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that, I completely agree with. So have I.
crazy.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

I guess it is just knowing whether you can or you cant?

I have had the offer of a 3yo tb, who has been in racing 6 months and is crap but moves beautifully and is quite trainable. Just too scared to take it (gift horse? Mouth? Whats the saying???!)
 
[ QUOTE ]


My horse is "too good for me"
crazy.gif
I know that
smirk.gif
And I'm quite sure others on here would think so. It could be said she's "wasted" on me, but I adore her, and she wants for nothing.
laugh.gif
She has a home for life with me and we have fun together. Once I get my lorry, I'm going to affiliate her, but I'm under no illusion, she has more talent in one of her donkey ears than I'll ever display
tongue.gif
However her previous owners <u>chose</u> to sell her to me, and not the highest bidder, because for all her talent, they wanted her to be appreciated for her lovely temperament, not just as a jumping machine.
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm exactly the same, I know my horse completely outclasses me, and I would never have gone out looking for a youngster, but when I saw him I knew he was the right one. OK, so he may not ever reach the standard he might have with someone else with more money, more experience and better facilities and oportunities, but he has a home for life, is absolutely adored and will have a go at everything, and we will hopefully do the best we can and reach our maximum potential as a partnership. At the end of the day, they let me buy him, and they said no to others who would probably be considered far superior to me in knowledge and ability
 
Im afraid that it's something that I don't think will ever change and I can sort of understand the point that Feu Folet is making here as I too am sure that there are many young horses (esp with top quality bloodlines) that don't reach their potential and all to often the horse gets 'blamed' for things when it may be rider error etc etc. However if people want to ride/bring on 4/5 year olds and don't have the the experience that other riders may have then it really is their own choice. I personally choose to have my horses from 3/4yr olds and bring them on myself as I then only have myself to blame! I really enjoy bringing on youngsters as it's really rewarding seeing them improve and learn new things. I have had my 12 y/o and 7 y/o from being just backed 4 and 31/2 year olds respectively, My 12 year old is at Med level and my 7 year old is just about to start affilliated Prelim/Novice.

I don't think its necessary to have heaps of qualifications to be able to do a good job of bringing on a youngster as common sense and empathy go a long way. And yes- a good back up team and quality training does help!..

I think the main thing is that as long as people enjoy their horse whether its a 4 or 20 year old and they are doing what they want to do with it whether that be dressage, SJ, Showing, or just Hacking etc then thats all that matters!
Feu Folet should give herself more credit though!
 
Just to add... if we are all thinking of the same person then I too admire her and the progress she and her little lady have made. I only hope that I can follow her example when it comes to producing my youngster.

And in reply to the original post...
I think that a horse being wasted isn't an issue... as long as the horse enjoys its job and the rider enjoys the horse then you can't ask for much more.
I have had a few 2/3/4yo's off the track, and whilst I'm finding one (which I'm keeping for myself) a challenge to say the least, the others have all been sold on into new homes as responsive, willing, well-rounded individuals which are now excelling in their spheres. I don't claim to have the experience to produce a world class horse from scratch, but I do think I can manage not to ruin the youngsters that come to me
smirk.gif

I have a foal on the way, whcih will be my first. I'm hoping that a desperation not to get it wrong and a willingness to ask for help will get me through without disaster.
grin.gif
 
We all have to learn sometime.
And horses are simple things; praise them immediately when they do the right thing, ignore them when they get it wrong, and tell them off when they are really naughty.
Have simple, consistent ground rules...and horses are happy to work within them - as they know where they stand.
My rules are no kicking, no biting, no barging, stand quietly to be rugged/groomed/fly spray/cut treated/fly masked whatever (without a h/collar). Move back when asked, over when asked. Walk on/trot on and halt when asked.
Lift feet politely for picking out and farrier.
So far it's gone ok with the 18yo (I broke her) and is going ok with my 2yo and 3yo (who won't be broken this year).
S
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Surely she won't mind being named - Gin has started Tilly SO SO well and I am positive that will continue throughout her ridden life
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Hear! Hear! I think Gin has done an absolutely sterling job with Tilly. Obviously we all think so, therefore it must be true!
wink.gif
cool.gif
 
'Full potential' -depends on your definition. If the horse is a nice ride, with no hang ups and can turn their hand to most things, then its success training.

All of my are homebred and schooled - yes you get paranoid and any problems are ones you created!!

My boys can do all RC activities and we are improving on the SJ (currently worrying about SJ at Blenheim tomorrow). I don't want to jump bigger than 4ft, I migth be limiting their potential. However we are all happy, have no problem and I can trust my horses with most people.

I don't think I have done a bad job educating, altough never taken them hunting as they are too "Precious" and the hunts around me aren't the nicest!!
 
I was just wondering that's all, there seems to be more and more "trainers" about these days than qualified instructors, really pleased that you have insurance though as a lot I hear off don't have any insurance or first aid certificates.

just being nosey is all
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I was just wondering that's all, there seems to be more and more "trainers" about these days than qualified instructors, really pleased that you have insurance though as a lot I hear off don't have any insurance or first aid certificates.

just being nosey is all
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I teach a six year old, and eight year old, a bunch of teenagers and 2 older ladies...only basic and not rocket science, and no I dont consider myself a trainer!

If I went to do it full time I would do my AI, but I dont think that makes you a good instructor - more of a qualified one!
 
LOL!! Well I have no time for BHS and most of it's gobbledy-gook. I've seen AI's who have made my hair turn grey. Being a good rider has nothing to do with qualifications; it has to do with experience.

Riding teachers are very similar to school teachers in my opinion; get an old fuddy-duddy who has been doing it all their lives, often with lower qualifications; would so much rather have them than these mamby-pamby new teachers with qualifications coming out of their bottoms but are incapable of putting forward the art of good teaching.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surely she won't mind being named - Gin has started Tilly SO SO well and I am positive that will continue throughout her ridden life
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Hear! Hear! I think Gin has done an absolutely sterling job with Tilly. Obviously we all think so, therefore it must be true!
wink.gif
cool.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep - this is exactly who I was referring to. Brilliant job
laugh.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
LOL!! Well I have no time for BHS and most of it's gobbledy-gook. I've seen AI's who have made my hair turn grey. Being a good rider has nothing to do with qualifications; it has to do with experience.

Riding teachers are very similar to school teachers in my opinion; get an old fuddy-duddy who has been doing it all their lives, often with lower qualifications; would so much rather have them than these mamby-pamby new teachers with qualifications coming out of their bottoms but are incapable of putting forward the art of good teaching.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm neither, but quite good at confidence giving...which is why they have me! Bit of a joke really, but after loosing my bottle completely, I understand where they are coming from - dont teach them to be good riders, just happy ones!
 
This thread has really made me think. I got a yearling when i was 16 and did everything myself with the occasional help from my trainer. I backed her myself and then when she was three she came with me when i began work at Catherston Stud.
Thinking about it now i had no experience of youngsters when i got her but i had confidence and i think that made all the difference. She trusted me because i showed absolutely no fear of her or what she might do, the benefit of youth!!
She is now 8 and im 23 and have had a lot more experience of youngsters since but strangely would feel less confident with a real baby now. I found the whole experience of working with my own youngster absolutely fantastic, but can't really say when is the right time to get a youngster. I don't think it matters how old they are when you buy them it still comes down to building a partnership and having some common sense and if in doubt seek expert help.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top