I genuinely believe that you should not have a young horse

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Agent XXX999

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Unless you know what you are doing - even if you can afford all of the instruction in the world.

I think that is the reason so many horses do not reach their full potential, and why so many people have confidence knocks.

It has quite become the fashion to have a 4 or five year old to "bring on" - I have been riding 20 years, could sit on a four year old and make it look good, but do not consider myself to have the experience to educate a young horse. So why do people who are more novicey than me think they can?

I get paid to school peoples horses, I get paid to teach, and I compete BSJA, school up to 1.20 at home and medium dressage, but STILL I dont think I have the experience to educate a young horse....even though I probably do!

When is the right time?
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you may be right, however I also think most of it is common sense and perhaps people who do bring on youngsters make it seem more complex in order to justify the costs? (Obviously I am not talking about high level competition horses where most people do not have the skills to train)
 
unfortunately there is a real lack of true horsey knowledge, and a preponderance of the "use a gadget for a fast result" brigade. patience and time are what young horses need, however talented they are, and in a lot of cases they don't get them.
also, some of the old, knowledgeable horsemen have a "it's taken me donkey's years to earn this knowledge, i'm not just giving it away" attitude - very selfish, and detrimental to horses' welfare. i've had this said to me... "don't just tell anyone this", dreadful attitude.
that's one great thing about this forum, the willingness to share tips and knowledge and bitter experience, in some cases!
i love training young horses, but i agree it isn't for everyone, and i've seen some cracking youngsters totally ruined by inexperienced and in some cases arrogant handling and riding, unfortunately.
this included a wonderful coloured who the girl (who'd never had a horse before) started riding in full work at 2, creating a permanently dipped and weakened back in a lovely little horse.
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Depends on the nature of the horse. I bought Stonks after a 23 year break from riding - she had been broken then turned away for a year. Lunged her, tacked her up and with a leader rode her - we never looked back in our brief partnership. Yes I did have an instructor, but it was working with her that developed that partnership.
 
hmmmm

this is a tricky one! when we were looking for a horse, i was only 12, and we initially started looking at 8-9 year olds, even one 12 year old. but then ellie came along, aged just 5, and she seemed perfect. everybody criticised my mum for being 'irresponsible', but i think wat helped me greatly is that i had a wonderful support team, with mum at home (who has broken countless youngsters) and my trainer, who helped me immensely. i am by no means a fantastic rider, but ellie, now 12 herself, is 10 times the horse she was when we got her. and if i was ever looking for another horse, i would undoubtedly look for a youngster, even a foal. it depends on your patience, your goals and the support you can rely on, i think!
 
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you may be right, however I also think most of it is common sense and perhaps people who do bring on youngsters make it seem more complex in order to justify the costs? (Obviously I am not talking about high level competition horses where most people do not have the skills to train)

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I am talking about your bog standard riding club horse here -I still dont feel I have the experience to train one - maybe it is confidence with me?
 
I think there is only one way to learn.
I also think that training a young horse takes a certain sort of person, a person that has a genuine understanding of a horse and is prepared to work with that, rather than what worked with another horse.
Some people will never get that, however long they have been riding.
 
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i think wat helped me greatly is that i had a wonderful support team, with mum at home (who has broken countless youngsters) and my trainer, who helped me immensely. i

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But thats the point. Most people aren't lucky enough to have really experienced support right there with them 99% of the time (sorry, i've made it sound as if your mum breathed down your neck all the time !). The dangerous people, and i suspect the people that FF is really referring toare the ones who take onyoungsters WITHOUT that strong base of support and experience behind them.
 
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i think wat helped me greatly is that i had a wonderful support team, with mum at home (who has broken countless youngsters) and my trainer, who helped me immensely. i

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But thats the point. Most people aren't lucky enough to have really experienced support right there with them 99% of the time (sorry, i've made it sound as if your mum breathed down your neck all the time !). The dangerous people, and i suspect the people that FF is really referring toare the ones who take onyoungsters WITHOUT that strong base of support and experience behind them.

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Exactly. I am quite in tune with horses...can judge them and what they need to go, but I see some novicey people on their youngsters and I just think "why?"
 
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I think there is only one way to elarn.
I also think that training a young horse takes a certain sort of person, a person that has a genuine understanding of a horse and is prepared t work with that, rather than what worked with another horse.
Some people will never get that, however long they have been riding.

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Agreed. The other requirement is plenty of patience. You can't just get on and go, and you've got to be prepared for plenty of steps backwards before you get improvements.

I'd certainly never consider bringing on a young TB or WB type, but have been able to slowly produce my heavier girl who I've had since she was 3 or 4, and she's now a very good RC all rounder type. I couldn't have done it without my instructor's help to keep working through the sticky bits and keep us on the right track.
 
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Unless you know what you are doing - even if you can afford all of the instruction in the world.

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Now in some ways I agree with you - and some I don't. Me being a prime example.

If Amy had had her foal then this would have been my first youngster. Whilst I have experience to a degree with dealing with youngsters from birth onwards I would most definately class myself as inexperienced. However, I stable at my friends yard - and she has been breeding and breaking in horses for over 20 years. So I would have had wonderful support. And to a degree been able to make some mistakes without anything (hopefully) catastrophic going wrong. Another plus is that I am intelligent enough to know when to ask for advice, and actually want to learn. I have also seen what can go wrong in even the most experienced hands, but how it can go marvelously right as well.

We do after all have to start somewhere with new experiences.

I think the danger comes from people who have very unrealistic expectations, view everything through rose tinted glasses, and don't learn to think around corners.

There is a particular forum member on here who has been soley responsible for bringing on her beautiful youngster in a way I find most admirable. I know she has had support and help - but the credit lies with her for the experience thus far being such a massive success. As far as I am aware this is her first youngster - and I know that I speak for everyone when I say how brilliantly she has done.

I won't publicly name her here - but her little filly is a beautiful bay girl, now being ridden away with huge confidence.
 
some youngsters are very easy. every question you ask of them they say "oh, umm, okay, i'll give it a go, mum", and when they do think of an evasion, it comes with a 3-minute warning, and then is pretty pathetic, and they're easily convinced! i've known of novice rider + youngster combinations which have been great, long term, and i'm convinced it was because they were lucky enough to have this kind of horse.
others answer a new question with "why? why should i do that?" and in some cases, "shan't. make me". these take a lot more tact, persuasion, patience, and determination, obviously.
and then there's the ones which say "NO." which are great fun, obviously...
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i think this basic attitude is inherent. i've seen it from birth upwards, in full-brothers, which were complete opposites. now i try to find the first type if i can!
you sound experienced enough to train a youngster to me. a lot of it is confidence, and if you're a good, experienced, patient rider, you should have the confidence to give it a go, imho.
 
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i think wat helped me greatly is that i had a wonderful support team, with mum at home (who has broken countless youngsters) and my trainer, who helped me immensely. i

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But thats the point. Most people aren't lucky enough to have really experienced support right there with them 99% of the time (sorry, i've made it sound as if your mum breathed down your neck all the time !). The dangerous people, and i suspect the people that FF is really referring toare the ones who take onyoungsters WITHOUT that strong base of support and experience behind them.

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i do see your point, but with me, it wasnt so much a case of having someone always telling me what to do - a lot of it just came naturally, because we just have a great affinity (horse and i, i mean!) i taught ellie to leg yield, turn on forehand, change leads....all this was done in a field by the motorway, completely on our own. my sj instructor was there wen we had a jumping prob, but we only went to him average once a month. and mum was there when i needed her, but it wasnt a constant 'mummy knows best' situation. i think if you have a real partnership with the horse, then many things can be learnt together!
 
I must say I learnt the hard way at at 12yo got a 4yo (nothing special) he did turn out to be a superstar but as i grew up i really wished i had schooled him and produced him properly so the next horse i got a 5yo i did do this with and now im breeding and breaking in youngsters

I still have lots of lessons and help from good trainers to though !!

I had a lady who wanted to buy my competition horse but clearly she couldnt ride him and although he is an angel i just knew that he would turn into a complete brat if she had him !!

So i didnt sell him to her and im glad as i wouldnt of wanted him to be ruined !!
 
I got my welshie as a 4y.o when I was 7, and me and him managed to cope alright. He has a good temperament and I somehow managed to get him to do leg yields etc. and he became a nice pony, very responsive etc. I bought Dan as a 10y.o last summer, and he was greener than my welshie was when I got him, and it was harder sorting out someone else's problems than having them to make
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I do think too many people get horses whent hey lack the experience to deal with them, but they could have a 5y.o or a 15y.o. and make a b*lls up. On the other hand, I know people who have bought youngsters and by using common sense have produced really nice ponies. I think it all comes down to common sense more than anything, and even people who have been around horses for years might not be as good with horses as they think
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I suppose I had my rose tinted glasses on when I bought Ryu, he's my second horse and was 4 when I got him and been in work for a fortnight after being turned away. I actually fell off him when I went to try him and the vet said although he was lovely he would need allot of time & experience.

I have nowhere near the credientials or compettion experience of FF, but I do have a great trainer and support group.

Nothing went to plan with Ryu the whole thing was a rollercoaster although luckily the downs were not a harsh as they could have been the ups have been fab BUT I wouldn't be in a hurry to do it all again.

I'm proud of what I've achived hes no world beater but has had a great allround education and is safe and happy, I can't wait to see what else we can get up to.
 
Personally, I would never advise someone to get a youngster unless they were very experienced. That said, It can sometimes work out well. I think it just depends on the person and the horse. I've known plenty of really nice older horses that have been ruined by bad handling/riding
 
Agree with kerilli above, I've got several friends with youngsters now, ranging from yearlings to 4 year olds. One in particular has made a real succes so far, she has had her mare nearly a year now and she (horse!) was 3 1/2 when she bought her. When we went to try the mare they told us she had been hacked, rideen regularly, lunged etc....yeah, right! Poor love hadn't even really got the hang of walking with the weight of a rider on board! Anyway, she is now confident in walk/trot/canter hacking and in the school, and has now started tiny jumping, but the most impressive thing is her manners. She is as well behaved as any 10 year old I know! But from watching them working together I have figured that what my friend has in abundance, and not everyone does, is three things...
Patience, confidence and discipline!
I think if you have all of these, plus experinced backup, you'll be fine! The most important thing is that there is a line, and it is always the same line...ie if you let them do something one day and tell them off the next, then how is the young horse supposed to learn! I'd like a youngster as my next horse, but would make sure I had an experienced person on site as although I've been aound and had my own horses years, and some have been less than easy, I'd still like to be able to ask those questions when I needed to!
 
I rather dumped my daughter in at the deep end. I bought a 3yo because I felt sorry for her being bullied in the field and pretty much untouched since she was a foal. She was supposed to make 15.3 and I was supposed to lose a lot of weight and she was to be for me. I didn't lose the weight, she didn't grow. I did all the ground work and got daughter in to back her, that wasn't working so we went back to where she was happy and then we chucked her back in the field for six months and eventually got a professional to help - he ran through the groundwork again and backed her and he and daughter rode her away last year. Daughter is now riding her and she's only been back in work for five months - brought back in around the time she turned five - but for her breeding (AA) she's proving to be very sane and sensible. She's done PC camp, she's visited her first show and done her first dressage tests, she's had a holiday on the beach and she's doing her first ODE on Sunday. Daughter has had tricky ponies to learn on before that which needed very careful handling and she's enjoying riding the little mare and taking her out and about. She's on her way to making a super little teenager's PC or RC horse.

But there's a fly in the ointment - it's your phrase "reach their full potential". Bearing in mind I paid very little for her on a whim I have got rather a good nag: Her trainer would like her for himself to event and suspects that she might go "all the way", my daughter hasn't even done her first Intro yet on any horse. She'd also make a pure dressage horse.

So I have a horse with amazing potential but I also have a teenage daughter who loves her as a person, who enjoys riding her and teaching her and learning how to do it herself. The little horse is happy doing what we ask so am I wrong not to hand her over to a pro and say "Go on - see what you can do with this" or would I be wrong to take her away from her home where she gets to live like a horse, to play at a bit of everything and where my daughter has a horse she feels she can trust and rely on and really enjoy?

Or should I have said "No we don't have the experience" and left her mouldering away in her field?
 
as alot of you are aware i have recently got a yearling colt. i would not normally have gone and got on but this came up with circumstances which persauded me. i have a very experienced person to help me as although ive ridden and owned horses for years i do not class myself as experienced enough to do this by myself. when i was about 15-we got two foals from the new forest sales and i did really well with handling them, so am using a bit of that experience combined with the experienced lady at my yard with a bity of common sense!! i understand what you are saying and it would be very silly if i was to go out and buy a young TB or something to bring on!
 
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Unless you know what you are doing - even if you can afford all of the instruction in the world.

I think that is the reason so many horses do not reach their full potential, and why so many people have confidence knocks.


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I'm going to come at this from the other angle here and say that perhaps having a horse is not always about the horse 'reaching his full potential' but about the rider enjoying riding the horse they own.

I would love to own and train a youngster. I'm no where near as experienced as you FF but I have done some reschooling and schooling of youngsters and really loved it. I'm sure that I would make some mistakes and have some problems but I also think that I would be able to overcome them. I wouldn't go out and select a potential PSG horse or 4*eventer, i would want something sensible with relaxed and happy outlook that I could have fun with and that I could school to do a nice riding club ODE.

I think it depends on how you see horses - do horses actually mind if they don't reach their full potential? And do riders mind the horse not reaching his full potential as long as the horse is behaving in a way that they are happy with? Yes it can be frustrating to see a nice horse being ridden by someone and thinking 'Oh, I could do *so* much with that horse, he's wasted...' but I don't suppose the horse feels that way.

Now if we are talking about people buying youngsters and totally overfacing themselves and completely ruining the horse - allowing him to develop vices etc that is a different matter.

But I do think that whilst I might not be as effective at introducing my horse to his first XC experience as William Fox Pitt (! for example !) and it will definitely take me a lot longer than it would take a more experienced rider, but this doesn't necessarily hurt the horse as long as I am patient and know when to get advice and instruction from more experienced people.

For me, I like to learn as I ride and I think a youngster could teach a lot of stuff about 'how to train youngsters' and also how to overcome problems. Is it really the end of the world if you make a mistake with the horse as long as you have the patience to correct it (obviously within reason) and you take each lesson in a patient and flexible fashion.
 
Maniscorse - as somebody who is outclassed 110% by her horse, i would go with your heart on this one. if your daughter loves the horse - REALLY loves her and wouldnt want to part with her - let her keep the mare and go as far as she personally can with her! we bought my girl for £3000 as a 5 year old; as a 7 yr old, we were offered £12000 for her, and my sj trainer has been trying to buy her back ever since we got her, for he thinks that she's certainly got the potential to get to HOYS at Fox level. people have wondered why i havent tried to do this with her, and the true answer is that i just dont have the heart or the nerve for it. sometimes i feel guilty that i have wasted the talent of a very good horse, but then i only have to think of all the fun we have had - and will have - together. i have no regrets!
 
I actually agree with you
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Ive had horses from being in my teens.. ive competed at BSJA and worked full time on a SJing yard where I DID work with the babies solely.

Since then ive switched to dressage and ride at PSG level with my boy (who we bought at 12 and is now 15 and i'll hold my hands up and say he was "ready made").

I do some freelance teaching and have my BHS stages.. im now considering doing the Danish examinations.

Myself and my boyfriend keep saying that in the next few years, we'll need to look for something for me. Our idea was always to source a youngster than would be ready for me to take over as Jack wanted to slow down in life (although I have a feeling jack will still be whizzy and crazy for a long time to come).

However, ive said over and over that i will not be the one starting it off. He / she will go to a professional and will be brought on professionally be someone who's sympathetic and knows what they're doing with babies. Ideally, I'd not be taking it over full time til it was 6 or 7 years old (so yes, still young but still).

Perhaps you do need to be a certain type of person, but i think a lot of people over estimate their skills and youngsters can be so testing.

My future baby will do his or her growing up time in the UK with my former trainer there
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MizElz and Maniscorse - they are YOUR horses, and as long as they have a lovely life with you, they won't mind if they don't get to HOYS/the Olympics/wherever!
i don't think a horse not reaching its full potential is a crime... not many do, because there aren't enough WFPs, Pippa Funnells, John Whitakers etc to ride them all!
horses love security, turnout, tlc, a relatively stress-free existence, kindness, company, a bit of excitement here and there maybe... if you are providing that, they'll be happy. and lucky you, having such lovely horses.
 
At the stage you sound as if you are in your riding, probably the only way to learn to be competent to bring on a youngster is actually to do it. Preferably with a support team you trust behind you and more than once before you can really say you "can" do it. So, yes, with you I'd say the only reason you can't is lack of confidence and possibly support. Or it simply doesn't interest you and you like made horses, which is fine.

But I agree there are plenty who buy young horses and ruin them and I think the main reason is that those folks simply don't realise how big the gulf in their knowledge is. If they've been riding a couple of years they think they have reached the stage of being 'experienced' riders - made all the more likely if they lack truly experienced mentors to compare themselves to.

But everyone who does bring on young horses has to start at some time. Even if they wait until they are reasonably competent horse-people they aren't born with the knowledge and experience, so there will always be some mistakes.
 
Thats a great reply Maniscorse - What exactly is a horse's "full potential" - does every horse have to make it to Badminton or Hickstead, is it a waste of a horse if nobody tried to take it there?

Both my horses are predominantly hunters, that is what they were bought for and used as (although we dabble a little in other things just for fun) How would you know if a hunter had reached its full potential when there are no prizes to be given out or money to be won?
 
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MizElz and Maniscorse - they are YOUR horses, and as long as they have a lovely life with you, they won't mind if they don't get to HOYS/the Olympics/wherever!
i don't think a horse not reaching its full potential is a crime... not many do, because there aren't enough WFPs, Pippa Funnells, John Whitakers etc to ride them all!
horses love security, turnout, tlc, a relatively stress-free existence, kindness, company, a bit of excitement here and there maybe... if you are providing that, they'll be happy. and lucky you, having such lovely horses.

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Thank you for that - everytime I look at our girl I can't believe how beautiful she is, how sweet and kind she is and how lucky we are that we have her. I've been waiting for nearly two years now to find out what her problem is - on the grounds that most horses bought for the sort of money I paid for her have a major problem - but so far (touch wood) it hasn't surfaced. She's a delight to have around except that for me, at my weight, it's like having the bestest toy in the world and not being able to play with it!

MizElz - just keep doing what you're doing and enjoying what you have!
 
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MizElz and Maniscorse - they are YOUR horses, and as long as they have a lovely life with you, they won't mind if they don't get to HOYS/the Olympics/wherever!
i don't think a horse not reaching its full potential is a crime... not many do, because there aren't enough WFPs, Pippa Funnells, John Whitakers etc to ride them all!
horses love security, turnout, tlc, a relatively stress-free existence, kindness, company, a bit of excitement here and there maybe... if you are providing that, they'll be happy. and lucky you, having such lovely horses.

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Amen to that
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My horse is "too good for me"
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I know that
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And I'm quite sure others on here would think so. It could be said she's "wasted" on me, but I adore her, and she wants for nothing.
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She has a home for life with me and we have fun together. Once I get my lorry, I'm going to affiliate her, but I'm under no illusion, she has more talent in one of her donkey ears than I'll ever display
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However her previous owners <u>chose</u> to sell her to me, and not the highest bidder, because for all her talent, they wanted her to be appreciated for her lovely temperament, not just as a jumping machine.
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Common Sense and horses do NOT seem to go together unfortunately!

People just seem to think that because they get to a certain stage they know enough, but I don't think its just about ur knowledge, but that you need to be able to think clearly about the steps u need to use to apply it and the outcomes.

Like I know how to leg yeild, but I cant think or plan out how I would teach a horse to do it.

I have in the past schooled youngsters (3/4yr olds) But never more complex than stop, start, turning and transitions, adn it was always under the watchful eye of a very experienced person.
 
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