I just don't know what to do? RE: PTS

[indie999]

Easy to give advice when its not your animal however I would...
1. Have a frank discussion with Vet re the liver. If there is nothing that can be done can you find out how damaged or how long it will be if they can say it will last out?
You may end up having repeated blood tests to see what the situation is with liver function.

2. Rideable or not rideable? Sounds like not rideable now? Kissing spines(plus the above if the liver is enlarged etc that could be causing discomfort too)?.

Your horse is developing multiple problems? If the horse is happy galloping round the fields can you retire as companion and keep close eye on any changes ie be that you PTS in an emergency if horse suddenly deteriorates or planned PTS?

After frank discussion with vet weigh up horse goes out on top(PTS now) or you PTS as soon as further deterioration. I am not sure what an equine hospital is going to achieve if your vet is telling you re the liver that the prognosis is terminal ie no longevity.

I think you sound a bit confused hence make list of all the questions ie what if .....and speak to your vet. Go for best realistic kind outcome if the vet cant be guaranteeing that your horse is going to be comfortable through any treatments drugs etc PTS. Endless expensive treatment isnt always the right way to go either, I hope your vet can help you decide.

I over ruled my own vet when it came to PTS, I knew my horse was not going to get better so I wanted PTS. My vet wanted to take to horsepital a lame arthritic old horse. Thankfully I didnt take his advice.

 

[unbalanced]

Sorry, I don't know about kissing spines, apart from to wish you well with it. Can you take a supportive friend to the vet with you to help you ask questions? That's what I did when I found out my pony had to have an operation and it really helped me.

However, about the staying at home for uni. That will be completely fine. Yes, you can still do all the uni work if you live at home. You can still join clubs and have a horse and a job. I did my BA and MA living at home and keeping my pony on DIY and holding down five part time jobs (that is, until the MA uni found out I was working 30 hours a week and made me cut down). I got a first and a pass. If you want it enough you will manage your time and see your friends as well (probably in lectures and at the yard rather than at the pub, but it will be fine )

Good luck with it all.

 

[Double_choc_lab]

B&W have one of the countries experts in KS in Sven Kold. Perhaps go to them you may be in their area.

 

[Kokopelli]

I'm going to speak to B&W on thursday, if I did get a referral from my vet I'm pretty sure this is where he would end up anyway as better equipped than my vets.

Thank you for comments everyone, I already feel less jumbled just having this small plan of action. I will speak to my vet tomorrow and see what he suggests. I need to get him out to do Louie's teeth soon anyway so at least won't be a waste of a visit.

I've done a lot of research into the surgery and if he wasn't such a stresshead and I thought he'd do boxrest I'd probably go for it but sadly he won't do boxrest. Last time he had half his leg hanging off and still managed to jump out the stable. Little ****** ended up being sedated for 2 weeks.

 

[Bobbly]

I confess I've not read all the posts, all I wanted to say is that you should not feel guilty by putting a reasonably healthy horse down, the decision to either prolong or end his days is entirely yours and only you can make that decision. For your own sake if you do decide to pts, then his being as healthy as he can be is then best time to choose, far better he is well, which is the picture you will remember forever than being a poorly and sad fellow just awaiting his time?

 

[paddi22]

I have an exracer that was diagnosed with kissing spine. I hadn't a clue what to do with him. He was quirky anyways, had bucketfuls of problems and I didn't have the money to pay the vets bills. And in my gut I know even with all the vet treatment she would still be a difficult rearer.

So I worked out how much I could afford to spend on him and then found a retirement yard and turned him out over winter. I had decided if he wintered badly then PTS would be only option. But he was absolutely fine and loved living out. The retirement livery allowed me to buy another horse and move to cheaper yard. Grass livery in the summer allowed me to bring my exracer back into work for a few months longlining and lunging. Now I can even hack him in walk, which is great.

If I was in your boat and I loved the horse I'd retire him if he's happy living out. If not I'd pts as the fairest option.

 

[Natch]

Oh you have had a difficult time with horses the last few years haven't you?

I wonder if what your physio is saying that with the best will in the world massaging his muscles won't stop pain that is caused by his bones, not muscles ditto with vet injections perhaps?

KS is, as I understand it, a degenerative disease. So whereashe might have been okay previously, he might not be now.

All just guesses though.

 

[Wagtail]

Horses with KS are usually only in pain when they are ridden. Most can be happily retired. I have personally owned or cared for five horses with the condition. None of them have had to be PTS. Injections into the spine CAN work but out of the five horses I have had experience of, only one had successful, permanent relief this way. Two had to retire, one was operated on and is 'a work in progress', one was not treated and was ridden without problems until he had an unrelated accident in the field.

There are several treatments available, ranging from physio therapy and structured exercise, to quite radical surgery. If the horse has no other skeletal or muscular issues, the success rates are very good, though some horses retain some of the mental problems relating to remembered pain.

I think it is terrible that you are being put in this situation.

 

[dafthoss]

I'll just say that living at home and commuting to uni is totally possible. Uni is 1.5 hours away for me and I still have plenty of time to do horsey stuff, more than I had during a levels actually.

Good luck with what ever you decide for him, I'm sure you will make the right decision.

 

[Wagtail]

BTW injections should be given in between the affected spinal processes with the aid of xrays for accurate placement of the needles.

 

[sarahann1]

Hope it goes ok speaking to the vet, having wonky horses isn't easy. I have two retired wonky lads and I've been up and down with the little lad in particular. There are posts from me a good while back asking about PTS etc, happily he's still here and pottering round the field, but for a time last autumn I didn't think he'd see this summer.

Flame is right, it's a roller coaster of highs and lows and glimpses of hope, I hope for the next while you have more highs than lows.

 

[A Musing]

I know it's a difficult time and I hope the vet gives you more helpful info. Sounds like you have a plan. I think half of it is the not knowing. Sven def seems to be the expert so hopefully can clear some things up. Sorry you're going through this.

Is he strong enough for ridden work etc? My post steroids advice was rest for a few days, walk in hand for 20 mind for a week, then we slowly started Pessoa work and ridden after 6 weeks after she was stronger and fitter. Vet said I'd see a difference after 2/3 weeks and he was right.

Steroids went into the spaces in the spine though. And physio has been helpful. Maybe you need some different people helping you. Hope it works out soon one way or another. x

 

[Maesfen]

that is incredibly quick to get back on! i stopped riding july, diagnosed august, started rehab november, got back on 1st febuary, cantered middle of march, first test since diagnosed in april...... (2011/12)

it sounds like you need to do long and low work, getting stretch across the back... if you can give time off....time is 'free' and is the best medicine possible, plus horse can stretch naturally eatting.

yes my boy was most likely born with ks....it only showed up as we let some one loan him who rode him incorrectly, pushing him onto the forehand and pushing his spinal processes together... this aggrevated his ks, but didnt cause it!

do trust your gut instinct...... wish i had litstened to mine more - would have saved alot of time and problems!

Sorry but I do have to agree with this. It's alright the vet saying the jab should act quickly but that does not mean you should work him as you have done or how you would normally. It should be a fittening process right back to basics, walking long and low to stretch and strengthen the back properly and building up gradually over a matter of months not trotting and cantering straight away to see how he is; sorry to be so blunt.

If he winters well I would be inclined to turn him away completely until spring next year which will be easier for your Mum and give his back time to heal naturally. However, if he should go downhill either in condition or from a soundness POV then I personally would have no hesitation in putting him down before he got any worse. There's no sadder sight than seeing a horse virtually drag itself around and be a shadow of his former self, please do it before that happens then you can remember him in his heyday as you should rather than the last few days taking over your memories of him.

 

[windand rain]

I dont know about kissing spines but I do know vets can be wrong
so get a second opinion
I was heartbroken when I organised the knacker man to come a shoot my pony on the advice of a vet she claimed she had a splint in her knee and it was making her lame and she would never recover. I didnt think she was right and the instinct was that she was wrong as I know horses dont have splint bones in the knee So I rang the nearest vet hospital they laughed and said it was impossible, to bring her in for a lameness workup
cancelled the knackerman and toddled off to the horspital She had very badly balanced feet which were corrected and a torn annular ligament which was operated on that was ten years ago now and she is as fit as a flea and sound as a pound enjoying semi retirement and a few veteran classes

 

[alext]

I confess to know nothing about ks , but I was in a situation 2 years ago where the vet had given up on my boy!
He's quirky hard to handle and is not good with pain.
He hadn't come sound fast enough for their liking and at two tenths lame they pretty much told me that was it ( having come from 8/10)
I have a young vet and I think she was mild in how she told me , had it been a senior vet I think they would of bluntly told me to pts. However I told her I wanted to give him a few more weeks and she told me to think about how I wanted the pts done.
I normally follow advice but he was happy in himself and I could see improvements.
The horse is now the vets biggest success he is currently ( it scares me to say ) sound in all paces and not on any bute!
He's meant to be permently 2/10ths lame on bute!
So although not the same problem ive been to that place where the decision has to be made.
You seem level headed you have thought about it , I guess what I'm saying is follow your gut! If you feel there is something else wrong there probably is.
And if he seems happy and you can afford to keep him go with your gut . I think as long as you realise it may not have a happy ending and that you can recognise when they have gone down hill it's worth giving them a chance!

 

[noodle_]

not read after first page....

personally id get a referal now to horsepital while you still have insurance money - fresh pair of eyes.....


if the vet has known him for years tbh this isnt always a great thing imo....


and lastly - money does come into play, no matter how much we love our animals... i had a 6 year old i couldnt get right anyhow....not for lack of money and trying - being realistic retiring a 6 year old and paying £200 a month + for the next 20 years isnt an option ever for me. Hard as it is.

good luck.

 

[laura-c]

From a somewhat depressing, pessimistic POV, probably because people who've been around horses a long time know that you are likely to be facing a miserable, soul-destroying, slow, downhill path fraught with glimmers of hope then disappointments ending in pts anyway. It is usually less painful, both to the owners and to the animal to face up to the situation sooner rather than later IMO.

This a million times over.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Ok as I get this you did further investigating and found KS. How was this diagnosed? Honestly this is becoming the diagnosis dujour. If it was vet hospital xrays great but if not then I really wouldn't permit injections in an area such as this. Maybe that's what happened. Just didn't see that in your posts. Sometimes I think KS gets thrown around by vets because it is at least something. And in the UK it's rampant. Not so much here or in the States where individual insurance is not the norm. I don't doubt there is an issue but a more precise diagnosis if possible will give you a better set of options.

I have a wonky mare too. Mixed in with sour from previous training. I wanted to inject her SI joint and vet brought out the ultra sound to to the job. After a 2 hour lamness exam in which I was I needed an oxygen tank, he absolutely could find nowhere that even hinted at her being sore and in pain. Previous to this it was xrays of everything. Nothing. It's absolutely infuriating to not know which way to turn. So she gets chiro and I have recently started stretching before tacking up. Not for nothing but has made a huge difference in her reactions to having the girth done up.

So I really think a referral to a vet hospital is in the cards. Then you will know for absolute certain what is going on. Then your decision may be a bit clearer.

Terri

 

[ester]

If you do go, for example, to go and see Sven, I do think it might help you to make a decision about his future as essentially atm you need information that you don't have. Either because your vets don't know, or because they haven't communicated it to you.

Am I right in thinking he was turned away before you got him and brought him back into work? I wonder if anything was up previously? Only because tbh he has never looked the most healthy/comfortable of horses even when he has been at his best weight/jumping well etc so perhaps things were grumbling before and have now come to a head.

Along a similar vein I know you said spine/neck likely like that for a while but not hurt previously, perhaps it did a bit but not enough to notice. I thought that about Frank's feet- they had looked the same certainly for a couple of years and not been lame but something just caught up with him.

 

[dotty1]

You are not that far from Willesley Equine Clinic, they are the 'top dogs' when it comes to kissing spine/back problems. Ask for him to be referred there or take him yourself for peace of mind.

Sorry, didn't read all the thread...B & W is same practice as Willesley.

 

[Firewell]

Go with your instincts. If you think there are things you should be trying, do them. Noone knows him like you do.

 

[putasocinit]

I believe in 6th sense, if you are thinking about PTS, then do it, if you didnt want to you wouldnt even think about it, if that makes sense!

He did go out on loan though and didnt do too well, you were at uni, you need your moms help financially, you are still at uni, you cannot ride him, and no doubt cant afford another whilst you have him, so probably PTS is best all around. Then maybe wait until you have finished uni and are settled then get a horse when you are ready for one.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Kokopelli have you seen the below website and videos? Someone posted this link in a KS thread some time ago and it is very interesting. I know first hand that physical therapy works. I have been doing inhand straightness work with my WB for several months now and his r/h hind hoof has grown is size according to the new weight he is bearing on this hind by using it correctly. (he has chronic SI dysfunction).
Personally I would investugate using a rehab trainer who can assist with straightness.



http://www.scienceofmotion.com/documents/279.html

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/videos/kissing_spine.html

 

[Wagtail]

I believe in 6th sense, if you are thinking about PTS, then do it, if you didnt want to you wouldnt even think about it, if that makes sense!

How is thinking about PTS sixth sense? OP has had various people suggest PTS to her so of course she will think about it. I for one have thought about putting both my horses to sleep at one time or another, but they have pulled through so I didn't. If I had PTS just because I'd thought about it, they wouldn't both be happily munching away right now. Thinking about PTS does not mean you WANT to. Often quite the opposite. It most certainly isn't sixth sense.

 

[Kokopelli]

Sorry everyone I have read all the posts and really appreciate the advice but haven't got time to each individually, im not ignoring anyone but will try to cover what I can.

At the point I got back on Andy he had already done the initial stretching, steady walk work. I had been bringing him back into work for a good few months (can't remember exactly) and had done about 3 weeks of gradual steady canters on a hack when he got bad again.

He has been diagnosed by xrays. Hes got 3 touching and one already fused. He also has about 10 incredibly close together and the vet said with the wrong work and if his back continued to dip and not muscle correctly we would have a serious problem.

He is one of those very genuine little horses with an incredibly high pain threshold. Therefore when he kicks up a fuss about something hurting I get concerned as it is not like him.

I do agree with the poster (sorry can't remember name) who said even at his ideal weight when competing well he was still never 100% he had been classed as cold backed a phrase that I don't believe. And his way of going was never too comfortable I can't imagine its natural for a horse to go with his ears up your nostrils.

Couldn't speak to vet directly today but he is ringing me tomorrow. I also have a get from b&w coming to work tomorrow so I'll talk to him Sewell.

Thank you everyone for replies I do really appreciate it and feel less overwhelmed by the whole situation.

 

[MissMistletoe]

I have always followed you and Andy's progress on HHO, and I can't offer any help on the matter other than that Andy is so lucky to have you .

Hope you can reach a solution to suit Andy soon.
Keep us posted.

 

[indie999]

I suppose years ago when no other treatments existed like they do now we have options.
Sometimes it was easier years ago when the vet said no more and we had little.

Fingers crossed you get some answers and sounds like you are keeping an open mind to make whats right decision.

 

[milesjess]

I haven't been on here much so don't know how your getting on but wanted to say stay strong. Your not alone, even though it feels like you are.

I was in the same position with my boy and only I could make that dreaded choice on PTS or keep battling on. If you think he is happy enough and coping then keep with him but my boy told me in his own little way that he'd had enough and I finally decided to let him go.

Don't let anyone talk you into it or pressurise you because it is the biggest and most life changing decision to carry with you so you have to make it yourself.

Ultimately you know Andy better then anyone else, look at him, be honest with what you see and decide whether he is happy and coping.

My heart goes out to you, it's sooo stressful and I was guilt ridden, confused and wanted desperately for my boy to recover.

Good luck and he's lucky to have you!

 

[Spotsrock]

Kokopelli I have nothing useful to add except having seen u jump Andy in past I have 16.3 tb who is my baby , I use him for dressage but he is willing and scopey but green jumping. We're Lincs and you'd be more than welcome to the ride while you work out what to do with Andy or ongoing. I doubt you have time but I had to ask as my lad would benefit from your jumping experience and it may remove the element of needing another horse if he suits you, which in turn may help with decision making. My heart totally goes out to you hun and I wish I could be more help.

 

[Flibble]

I am really sorry you are in this position. You really need to talk to specialist vets who will give you the information to enable you to make an informed decision for you and Andy. I know how hard it is Good Luck whatever you decide.