I know this is a few years old now but appears still so relevant .... please watch

[MurphysMinder]

I would like to see health tests mandatory before a dog can win top awards , and I mean things like x rays not just a vet looking over them as happens today in a few breeds. However the fact remains that as PN says, currently dogs are just judged against the breed standard. Back in the 70s I had a bitch with atrocious hips, she was a very good mover and won consistently on her movement including in veteran classes, I got a great deal of pleasure out of showing her, and the judges did nothing wrong in giving her awards.

 

[s4sugar]

That CKCS had a not quite perfect MRI scan and was being carefully used on selected bitches with perfect MRI scans to preserve bloodlines (all done under the scrutiny of the breed club & RVC ) Progeny were being tested (@ nearly a grand a time) as part of the research into the condition.
I don't think this is good enough, the dog surely should not have been bred from at all. If any of the off spring have a problem what is done with them? Also how is this dog with a health issue allowed to be entered into a show and win best in show with a health problem that can be inherited? Would the owner of this dog ensure that any bitch he is bred with has had all medical checks done and would she be up front about this dog's scans? I realise that the programme could be manipulated to make it look bad on the breeders but that does not take away the fact that at the end the breeders were more upset that the owner of the cav had been approached about his health issues than about the health issues themselves.

The breeders were most upset about the way the program makers did things. The test results were not secret but blowing it out of all proportion to the public who in the main don't have a clue -read your question back - cause a lot of upset.

Also how is this dog with a health issue allowed to be entered into a show and win best in show with a health problem that can be inherited?

So you would like any dog that gets a less than perfect test score or is an unaffected carrier of a recessive condition or has one copy of a gene that causes problems in the homozygous form to be barred from showing?
Lets see that would be all Merles, most spaniels, retrievers, many toy breeds, Dalmations, Bedlingtons, SCWT, ..... the list goes on but these dog are, generally, not affected and the conditions are invisible to a judge. I do know of top winning dogs which are affected by some health conditions - I only know because the owners & breeders are honest and those dogs will never produce a puppy that could be affected.

The same criteria could be applied to miniature horses, OLWS etc. Should Fell ponies have been allowed to die out before their genetic marker was found? http://www.equinescienceupdate.com/articles/fpst.html

The programme spawned a lot of court cases -often costing funds that could have been spent on health research but the damage this programme did lives on. As above - people should research before "buying a pup". I had a client on losing their teenage pet go out and buy a puppy farmed mongrel because "They wouldn't by a Kennel Club puppy" - they now have a huge shaggy dog with HD.
Too many rush out and get the first cute little bundle they see and then shout something should be done about these breeders! It can be done - Stop handing over money for ill bred dogs.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I know there's an English champion with a score of 50 on one hip (0 on the other), and obviously has never been bred from, the best winning bitch in the UK has A3/Nochzuglassen elbows ('still OK' I think is the translation) but she is an absolutely breathtaking mover, one of the best I've seen. Another of the best moving bitches I have seen, made champion at 18 months and her hipscore was in the high 80s. But as mentioned, they were being judged against the standard. In a class where health test results were taken into account, they'd run the risk of coming nowhere (indeed the female with the not so good elbows was denied 'excellent' status a few years ago and there was a right hullabaloo....it would take a brave/selfless owner/breeder to accept that.

Three GSDs won Supreme Champion at Crufts. All were windy as hell and two were implicated in producing epilepsy. Epilepsy was all but eradicated in the breed when a few breeders stepped forward, identified that their dogs were carriers and the lines were stopped.
However it has crept back into the breed via, amongst other things, people breeding for off-colours like whites and blues, which years ago, would never have been bred from, but hey, people do like their pwetty kolors, and it's OK to breed for colour alone than for conformation, right?!

 

[MurphysMinder]

I should have added that my bitch wasn't bred from. I was at the event where the beautiful nochzuglassen bitch had the excellent grade withheld and can confirm that there certainly was a hullabaloo!

 

[Crugeran Celt]

The breeders were most upset about the way the program makers did things.

They didn't help themselves with the attitude they showed.

So you would like any dog that gets a less than perfect test score or is an unaffected carrier of a recessive condition or has one copy of a gene that causes problems in the homozygous form to be barred from showing?

I have no problem with dogs being shown at all but I do have a problem with them being bred from and for a dog to win best in show would indicate that it is of good breeding stock which simply isn't the case. I know nothing of breeding or showing dogs at all but it just seems a little strange that a dog that could pass on such a debilitating problem could win best in show, that may be complete ignorance on my behalf and perhaps I am expecting to much of dog breeders. I would like to think that a judge would 'down grade' a dog if it had a known medical issue as many people would see such a dog win and go out and buy its off spring and then breed from it without knowing the consequences of doing so. Nobody has made clear what happens to any puppies that happen to have inherited the problems??????????

 

[{97702}]

Three GSDs won Supreme Champion at Crufts.

I rather think you mean BEST IN SHOW at Crufts CC, this is not the BBC here you know No such thing as "Supreme Champion"

 

[CorvusCorax]

Again, there is nothing to stop people *breeding* (the bitch with A3 elbows HAS been bred from, because the translation is 'still OK for breeding' - I wouldn't, but the owner has - and it will be interesting to see how the youngsters turn out.

There should be enough info to stop people *buying* - for myself, I would not want to buy one of those pups.
I would say to puppy buyers if the sire and dam have no hip and elbow scores, walk away, if the pedigree has a few middling to high scores, walk away. I'd be looking for five generations of dogs with low hip and elbow scores to help increase the likelihood of having a pup which will grow to have good hips and elbows.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I rather think you mean BEST IN SHOW at Crufts CC, this is not the BBC here you know No such thing as "Supreme Champion"

Ooops, schoolgirl error oh and all three were implicated in fitting progeny, apparently

 

[{97702}]

I would like to think that a judge would 'down grade' a dog if it had a known medical issue as many people would see such a dog win and go out and buy its off spring and then breed from it without knowing the consequences of doing so. Nobody has made clear what happens to any puppies that happen to have inherited the problems??????????

You obviously havent read my reply, where I explained that the medical condition was already known about? So "many people" made an informed choice as to whether to go out and buy the offspring of this dog, or not, as they saw fit.

As far as what has happened to any puppies that have the inherited problems, responsible breeders do not use them for further breeding - what else would happen

 

[s4sugar]

I would like to think that a judge would 'down grade' a dog if it had a known medical issue as many people would see such a dog win and go out and buy its off spring and then breed from it without knowing the consequences of doing so. Nobody has made clear what happens to any puppies that happen to have inherited the problems??????????

So you would like the judge to not judge the animal in front of them but to downgrade any with owners honest enough to let the health status be known?

The dogs which win & get bred from generally have their health testing known and matings are carefully planned to avoid unhealthy animals being produced. Too often people breed without doing the recommended testing and the problems lie with these people and those who buy their product. How often do you see a variation on these words on this forum;- "Only buy from health tested parents and check what testing & results are needed". As for breeding from the offspring of a winning dog - those people should do their own research, testing and mate, or not, accordingly.

What happens to puppies with problems? It depends on the problem. If someone is stupid or irresponsible enough to mate two merles I would hope a vet would euthanise affected puppies asap. If it is a minor condition it may be possible for the pup to have a normal life. If the dog is a carrier of a recessive condition it will not be affected by it at all.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

So you would like the judge to not judge the animal in front of them but to downgrade any with owners honest enough to let the health status be known?

AH YES!!!!! or am I just too honest for the dog breeding world??

 

[s4sugar]

So you would like the judge to not judge the animal in front of them but to downgrade any with owners honest enough to let the health status be known?

AH YES!!!!! or am I just too honest for the dog breeding world??

So why show at all? The whole idea is to find the closest to the breed standard.
If you remove any that have any failing - take GSD -any with a higher than 0/0 hip score for example and don't allow them to beat a dog that has a 1/1 hip score but looks like a Malenois what is the point of having a breed?

IMO CC you are not being honest but ill-informed - like far to many others.
Turn it around -you have a beautiful miniature horse that has had a splint removed in the past -should you not be allowed to show it? Or according to your suggestion for dogs should it be put behind a big headed, short legged, cow hocked example that hasn't has an op? We are talking a show class here not a veterinary check for grading.

Showing is a beauty contest. Breeding is separate. Yes showing is the showcase of breeding dogs but a conscientiousness breeder looks at all aspects of the dogs, their genetics, relations and compatibility.

The programme in the first post was purely made as a propaganda exercise by someone who imports ( or did) Labrador crosses from Irish pounds ( as if we don't have enough in pounds here). Interestingly these don't get health screened before being adopted out and no statistics exist for how many have health problems. Did you watch the one I linked?

 

[Archiesmummy]

Although I found this programme shocking, I am not stupid. Of course not all pedigrees have problems. Of course not all dogs of a particular breed have problems. Watching the programme, which held some truths at the very least, made me wonder about what exactly the KC do. In the normal world anyone putting their name behind something would ensure the 'product' was as perfect as can be. I am a supporter of pedigree dogs and if they are bred well and the breed enhanced that is fabulous. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases the breed is not enhanced.

We should be looking on the inside as well as on the outside of these dogs. No good having a perfect specimen on the outside and then it being all wrong on the inside. Breeders who love their breed surely would not object to this?

If you bought an apple and bit into it and it was rotten you would spit it out and complain or want your money back.

From what I see there is an awful lot to be done to save an awful lots of breeds from almost certain oblivion.

 

[Archiesmummy]

The breeders were most upset about the way the program makers did things.

They didn't help themselves with the attitude they showed.

So you would like any dog that gets a less than perfect test score or is an unaffected carrier of a recessive condition or has one copy of a gene that causes problems in the homozygous form to be barred from showing?

I have no problem with dogs being shown at all but I do have a problem with them being bred from and for a dog to win best in show would indicate that it is of good breeding stock which simply isn't the case. I know nothing of breeding or showing dogs at all but it just seems a little strange that a dog that could pass on such a debilitating problem could win best in show, that may be complete ignorance on my behalf and perhaps I am expecting to much of dog breeders. I would like to think that a judge would 'down grade' a dog if it had a known medical issue as many people would see such a dog win and go out and buy its off spring and then breed from it without knowing the consequences of doing so. Nobody has made clear what happens to any puppies that happen to have inherited the problems??????????

Thats what I have tried to say but not very well, amongst other things .

 

[Archiesmummy]

You obviously havent read my reply, where I explained that the medical condition was already known about? So "many people" made an informed choice as to whether to go out and buy the offspring of this dog, or not, as they saw fit.

As far as what has happened to any puppies that have the inherited problems, responsible breeders do not use them for further breeding - what else would happen

So why have the puppies?

 

[Archiesmummy]

So why show at all? The whole idea is to find the closest to the breed standard.
If you remove any that have any failing - take GSD -any with a higher than 0/0 hip score for example and don't allow them to beat a dog that has a 1/1 hip score but looks like a Malenois what is the point of having a breed?

IMO CC you are not being honest but ill-informed - like far to many others.
Turn it around -you have a beautiful miniature horse that has had a splint removed in the past -should you not be allowed to show it? Or according to your suggestion for dogs should it be put behind a big headed, short legged, cow hocked example that hasn't has an op? We are talking a show class here not a veterinary check for grading.

Showing is a beauty contest. Breeding is separate. Yes showing is the showcase of breeding dogs but a conscientiousness breeder looks at all aspects of the dogs, their genetics, relations and compatibility.

The programme in the first post was purely made as a propaganda exercise by someone who imports ( or did) Labrador crosses from Irish pounds ( as if we don't have enough in pounds here). Interestingly these don't get health screened before being adopted out and no statistics exist for how many have health problems. Did you watch the one I linked?

But a splint is acquired, not inherited.

Perhaps the KC need to rewrite their breed standards, afterall, weren't they written in the Victorian times when the KC began?

 

[howsthat]

Archiesmummy would still like to know how you came in contact with the "breeders" that disgusted you so much with their lack of ethics and "mutant" pups,and also were the stock they were breeding from KC registered?

 

[Archiesmummy]

Archiesmummy would still like to know how you came in contact with the "breeders" that disgusted you so much with their lack of ethics and "mutant" pups,and also were the stock they were breeding from KC registered?

Yes, of course. Like so many people who are 'ignorant' and try to do the right thing by looking for a KC registered and approved breeder I looked online. In hindsight not the correct thing to do but I hold my hands up. That is where I met with KC registered non ethical people.

As for the 'mutant' pups. Please read my post again. I did not come across 'mutant' pups, this was merely mentioned in a post.

I suspect you shall shoot me down. Please, I am like many, many people, expected KC registered to have to meet stringent testing etc. Clearly my expectations were incorrect. So now I know.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Most of the breed standards have been modernised since Victorian times - the first GSD was only registered in Germany in 1899 so I'd say the current breed standard is much, much more recent!!

 

[Crugeran Celt]

So why show at all? The whole idea is to find the closest to the breed standard.

Perhaps the breed standards need adjusting then.

IMO CC you are not being honest but ill-informed - like far to many others.

I never said I was an expert in fact I have made it very clear that I know nothing of dog breeding or showing but there is no doubt that many pedigree breeds have inherited problems that are getting more wide spread.

Showing is a beauty contest.

Yes I understand that it is a beauty contest but people will pay a lot of money to buy the off spring of an animal that has done well in the show ring and may be purchasing a money pit that the original breeders knew they were breeding. Unethical?

I think we will have to agree to differ on this one, I appreciate that you know much more about the breeding world than I will ever learn but I still cannot understand how a dog with known medical problems that can be inherited can win a show, best in show at that when the judges and other breeders are aware of its problems. Perhaps when these animals are diagnosed they should be neutered in order that the problems cannot be passed on and the rules on showing should be changed so that neutered animals can take part. The fact that dogs have to be entire to show at top levels would suggest that they are recommending them as breeding animals?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Equally the onus should be on the potential buyer to do as much research as possible.

Being allowed to show a neutered male could hide the fact that the dog is a monorchid/cryptorchid which is a huge fault.

Sorry to bang on about the German system, but that is a show system where the animals ARE placed according to how breedworthy there are - that brings its own problems, IE huge bottlenecks and backmassing on the dogs promoted as THE dogs to breed from.

Even the sport of Schutzhund/IPO is not meant to be a sport, it's meant to be a breed selection tool, the best performing dogs do get a lot of breedings but what's to stop a dog with one ball competing in tracking, obedience and protection if he can find articles, do heelwork, and take down a decoy?

 

[milor]

Why the expectation of perfect health only from Show dogs ? - are not Sheep dog trial champions, Shutzhund, Obedience and Agility Champions also highly sought after and bred from ? -can they not also pass on any faulty genes ? if we demand evidence of perfect health from Show dogs before allowing them in the ring then should we be demanding the same before allowing dogs to take part in Field Trials or indeed to go hunting ( are Hounds health tested before being bred form ? ) and what about breeds that do not have conditions that can be tested for - would they OK to be shown ? - what about if I knew my friends dog produced Monorchidism - should I inform the judge ? - If I as a judge knew that the dog in front of me had a Great Grandad that died of Cancer should I chuck him out ? - what nonsense !!

Actually why the expectation that breeders can produce dogs with perfect health at all ? after all my own human 'pedigree' has produced people that have died of Cancer, heart disease and who are short sighted - hands up anyone who does not have some genetic nasty lurking in their family tree ! - should we also not breed until we can prove perfect health

We are not producing car components but living organisms with thousands of genes that can and do go wrong - the best we can do as breeders is test for those things that are testable , use breed databases to inform us about the dogs behind our lines and plan our matings as carefully as we can based on as much knowledge as we can gather - and frankly if that's not good enough for some folk then they need to go out and buy themselves a stuffed toy dog cause that's the only way they'll guarantee perfection !

 

[Springy]

There are alot of shockingly bred and kc registered dogs out there that Joe public know no better about..... They see a pup is kc and think that this means its been bred 'correctly' to a high standard which isn't always the case. You can't deny that bulldogs find it hard to breathe and ridge backs are actually deformed etc..... It took me 18months to find a chihuahua that didn't have its eyes too protruding or facing to the sides or a parrot mouth or water on the brain type skull etc etc..... Madness people who have got money at heart rather than the good of the breed..... It does happen... Not all breeders but alot of chihuahua pug bulldog 'breeder's are shocking..... Something needs to be done about these dogs with genetic problems... Im sure people can agree on that at least........

 

[Crugeran Celt]

Equally the onus should be on the potential buyer to do as much research as possible.

Being allowed to show a neutered male could hide the fact that the dog is a monorchid/cryptorchid which is a huge fault.

But there can be no off spring that others can buy and breed from that is the point.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

Why the expectation of perfect health only from Show dogs ? - are not Sheep dog trial champions, Shutzhund, Obedience and Agility Champions also highly sought after and bred from ? -can they not also pass on any faulty genes ? if we demand evidence of perfect health from Show dogs before allowing them in the ring then should we be demanding the same before allowing dogs to take part in Field Trials or indeed to go hunting ( are Hounds health tested before being bred form ? ) and what about breeds that do not have conditions that can be tested for - would they OK to be shown ? - what about if I knew my friends dog produced Monorchidism - should I inform the judge ? - If I as a judge knew that the dog in front of me had a Great Grandad that died of Cancer should I chuck him out ? - what nonsense !!

Actually why the expectation that breeders can produce dogs with perfect health at all ? after all my own human 'pedigree' has produced people that have died of Cancer, heart disease and who are short sighted - hands up anyone who does not have some genetic nasty lurking in their family tree ! - should we also not breed until we can prove perfect health

We are not producing car components but living organisms with thousands of genes that can and do go wrong - the best we can do as breeders is test for those things that are testable , use breed databases to inform us about the dogs behind our lines and plan our matings as carefully as we can based on as much knowledge as we can gather - and frankly if that's not good enough for some folk then they need to go out and buy themselves a stuffed toy dog cause that's the only way they'll guarantee perfection !

I don't think anyone thinks they need to produce the perfect dog but some breeders are breeding problems into the dogs in the name of beauty, these problems are leading to very poorly animals that need a lot of care and sometimes a lot of money spent on them. They cause heartache to families who think they have bought the perfect pet only to find that they have a debilitating, life shortening inherited problem that the breeder would have known about. As I said before why can't showing animals be neutered if they have a problem so at least no one is going to be tempted to breed from them.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I suspect the people who would neuter their show animals because of a hereditary condition would be the people who wouldn't breed from them anyway. Using my own bitch as an example (again, sorry), she wasn't spayed until she was 6 or 7, but I was not tempted to breed from her before this. You can in fact show a neutered dog, you just have to inform the KC and in the case of a male the vet has to confirm there were 2 testicles present before the op. I suspect there are quite a few spayed bitches being shown and probably successfully, however I very much doubt a castrated dog would be placed above an entire one.

 

[milor]

Yep ..you can't deny that a dog with a flat face will find it harder to breath than one with a good length of muzzle and that a dog with 'cute' protruding eyes will have problems ... it's not rocket science and yet despite this breeds such as Bulldogs and Pugs remain amongst the most popular of breeds - way more popular than more moderate breeds such as Norweigan Buhunds or Schipperkees - people will say one thing but put their money into the pockets of those who breeed for extremes - take the poster who searched for a Chihuahua a breed quite OBVIOUSLY bred for extremes- why was she not looking at more moderate breeds in the first place instead of choosing a breed on the basis of it's extreme physiology and then complaining because of the problems she found !

There's a whole heap of hypocrisy out there that pays lip service to pushing the health agenda and yet carries on loving the wrinkles on their Sharpeis, the snuffles on their Bulldogs and the bug eyes on their Pugs ( and by the way it's the LESS extremes of type in these breeds that are now found in the showring ) - cuteness rules and for some ( to my mind ) unaccountable reason people find such dogs the epitome of cuteness.

I breed Belgian Shepherd Dogs - one of the most natural free moving and unexaggerated breeds in the world - yet their KC registration numbers in the last 4 months was only 4 litters producing 19 dogs - compared with Bulldogs with 75 litters producing 402 dogs and Pugs with a staggering 317 litters and 1993 dogs produced - go figure !

 

[CorvusCorax]

There's a whole heap of hypocrisy out there that pays lip service to pushing the health agenda and yet carries on loving the wrinkles on their Sharpeis, the snuffles on their Bulldogs and the bug eyes on their Pugs ( and by the way it's the LESS extremes of type in these breeds that are now found in the showring ) - cuteness rules and for some ( to my mind ) unaccountable reason people find such dogs the epitome of cuteness.

Great point

I breed Belgian Shepherd Dogs - one of the most natural free moving and unexaggerated breeds in the world - yet their KC registration numbers in the last 4 months was only 4 litters producing 19 dogs - compared with Bulldogs with 75 litters producing 402 dogs and Pugs with a staggering 317 litters and 1993 dogs produced - go figure !

Another point and I am guessing you hope they DON'T become popular....

...extra words...

 

[milor]

yes indeed !!

 

[Adina]

I have just found this thread and have to add a few comments. I am currently looking for a GSD puppy and have searched on line. I've had GSds for over 40 years and was showing in 1970s. There were a lot of dogs like the picture in the earlier post. Look at the angles of the hind legs THAT is over angulated. Look also at the loin, it is long and weak. I saw many bitches like this that won in puppy and young dog classes but became dippy backed as adults. THAT is unsoundness. I've spent time in Africa and since return have had rescues. But I would like to do working trials so want a sound dog. I have found a number of kennels breeding beautiful compact dogs with generations of health testing behind them. Surely this is the way forward?