I would like to open up a debate

[vicijp]

QR
'Trimmers' sound just like 'dentists'. They reckon they invented the foot/teeth and will do anything to discredit the true professionals.
As for taking an hour to trim a horse, do you not realsie you are being filled with sh+t? She is probably taking photos because she is unable to remember what shes done, any farrier can look at feet for 30 secs and tell you what was done the last time.
As for TheFarrier being an arrogant sh#t, far from it. He was the first person to ever to get shoes on my horse, 5 years later he still fires arrogant sh#ts into the wall.

 

[Doublethyme]

I've been both sides of the fence and to be honest, I got fantastic service from my DAEP and also from my now farrier.

I initially used a DAEP when I decided to try my mare without shoes as my then farrier wasn't interested unless I was paying full whack for shoes! I used the DAEP for three years, was exceedingly pleased with the service I received, he wasn't into farrier bashing and when I had to move back to shoes due to an unrelated tendon injury my horse incurred, he was fully supportive and very professional about it all.

My current farrier is equally supportive and professional and whilst my mare was shod did her really well. Regretably her tendon has not stood up to rehab and she is now broken again, possibly permanently, so I have whipped her shoes back off, but will remain with my farrier partly for economic reasons (she's currently just a pasture pet) but mainly because if by some miracle she comes sound again with time, she will need the shoes back on to bring her back into work.

I say each to their own. I am not anti farriers, think there are some brilliant ones out there. I do think the barefoot movement has been great to kick some of the less good ones up the backside to improve their game a bit. Equally I don't like the barefoot trimmer bashing either, as I say the one I had was 100% professional and good at what he did, although I do think are some less than professional ones out there.

Have to say though that whilst I agree with a lot of the barefoot movement, I am not comfortable with the "shoes are evil", "all horses should be without shoes", "oh he's just feeling the stones, not sore" type propaganda that goes on.

If a horse needs shoes, I see no problem with that. Where I do think the barefoot movement has made bigger strides in research etc than more traditional methods is in the remedial side of things, ie dealing with navicular etc.

I think its a shame there is such a "them and us" mentality on both sides of the fence, as there is much to learn both ways and to the benefit of the horse.

 

[Quadro]

my farrier is wondeful, i will never use anyone else i have never had a problem with him he is very accomidating, if i phone him at 9:30 on a fri night and say im jumping on sun can he come out and put a shoe back on he will first thing on sat morning and thats customer service!!!!
as i said on a previous thread would you let an unqualified vet examine and medicte your horse????
prob not they why do it with a farrier????

 

[TheFarrier]

[ QUOTE ]
QR
'Trimmers' sound just like 'dentists'. They reckon they invented the foot/teeth and will do anything to discredit the true professionals.
As for taking an hour to trim a horse, do you not realsie you are being filled with sh+t? She is probably taking photos because she is unable to remember what shes done, any farrier can look at feet for 30 secs and tell you what was done the last time.
As for TheFarrier being an arrogant sh#t, far from it. He was the first person to ever to get shoes on my horse, 5 years later he still fires arrogant sh#ts into the wall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Vici

 

[Abbeygale]

I have taken a 2nd horse barefoot - for both horses primarily this was that their feet were not coping well with shoes.

While a different farrier maybe could have shod them differently to improve their feet with shoes, I was happy to try barefoot.

My farrier trims my girl - her foot quality has improved so much in the last 18 months.

The main reasons that I would not use an EP are
a) My farrier was very pro barefoot, and he was easy to work with to transition my mare
b) I don't know any EP's in my area (and because my farrier was helpful I didn't spend much time looking)
c) The only thing I have heard consistently about EP's is that their trims cost between £40 and £60 - my farrier charges £20 for a trim and me and my mare are happy with it

Edited to add a not above - to make my sentance make more sense!!

 

[LadyRascasse]

i would only use a farrier, reasons behind it are:-

1) they have all the tools, trimmer are only allowed to use certain tools
2) they spend 4 years training whereas a trimmers only do 3 weeks.

 

[rara007]

Ajay has no shoes- Although he is trotted on the roads evey day he is a shitland, feet hard as anything and front shoes made him trip

Tally is a baby so work doesn't require shoes, and would like to keep him shoeless untill he needs studs in a good few years. Will have to see as his feet arn't amazing. Use the farrier, as it is so much easier as he is coming for the day to shoe the others, trust him, cheaper etc.

 

[ironhorse]

[ QUOTE ]

The hoof colour does not dictate its strength or health though

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really interesting, must be an old wives' tail I've come across, just coincidence that all the horses I've seen with really bad feet have had white or striped horn

 

[JM07]

[ QUOTE ]
.

Until BFTs realise that self importance doesnt make you an expert there will be problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Said

 

[MagicMelon]

I use both. I use a farrier to shoe my horse who competes (Id have him barefoot but need studs to event etc.!). And use a barefoot trimmer for my 2 elderly ponies after the farrier let their feet get into a state (I asked him to trim them, he kept refusing to saying they didn't need it etc. don't get me started!). The trim is NOT the same as that done by a farrier, a farrier trims in preparation for a shoe - a trimmer does it totally differently with a break over point etc.

My barefoot trimmer is brilliant, but then she is a close family friend! But she spends ages here taking great care in their hooves and really respecting my ponies. Whereas my farrier rolls up (sometimes he doesnt!) and gets on with the job. He's excellent at shoeing but seems to not give a crap about trimming, I guess because it doesnt make him much money.

 

[Tinkle]

Interestingly my 19yr old TB x mare who has been 'barefoot' since last September has just in the last week had problems with he feet breaking and the one which is least broken (i.e. only one chip!) is her white one.

In answer the the original question - I have two - the mare, as above, is unshod and trimmed by a farrier. He shod her for many years, she's now semi-retired and I had her shoes taken off. She's been managing really well in the field and on roads but unfortunately I really struggle to get her down the stony lane from the yard. She has lameness issues from time to time but that's usually connected to her arthritis. She'll stay this way unless farrier advises me to get the shoes put back on.

The gelding is shod and will continue to be shod for as long as he's in work and functioning as he should.

x

 

[GinaGem]

Haven't read all the replies so apologise if any of this isn't now relevant.

I use a farrier - i think my farrier is excellent so have never needed anyone else. I have no experience of barefoot trimmers - on private yard. My farrier is more than happy for our horses to go barefoot if their feet will cope.

My current horse has splits up both front feet (like that when i bought him), my farrier is using shoes to try and resolve this - ie support either side of the foot so it doesn't splay and crack further. I did have him unshod on the hinds when i bought him but he was getting footy with hacking so i had backs put on too.

Badger only has fronts as he wears them down too quickly, hinds cope fine.

My last horse was unshod as his feet coped fine without shoes so no point putting them on.

All the trimming was/is done by the farrier who i completely trust.

 

[sally2008]

I use a farrier and always will. Not only is my farrier very active in research projects into horses feet and eductaion of the horse owning public and fellow farriers, but he supports horses being barefoot if it is right for the horse. My 22 year old has been barefoot for 18 months now as his feet were sufficiently improved for him to deal with his current workload without shoes, the decision having been taken following in-depth discussion with my farrier.

It makes my blood boil when I hear barefoot trimmers spouting their rhetoric of their "performance trim" verses the farriers "pasture trim". Twaddle!!! ANY professional farrier should be doing a trim specific to the barefoot horses needs, which is different from that he uses when preparing the foot to take a shoe. Get yourself a conscientious and competent farrier I say, and not one who needs to throw on 15 sets of shoes a day at a reduced price to make a living. Cheap is always more expensive in the long run.

 

[Fransurrey]

Sadly, I couldn't vote, as essentially I use both! I have noticed some farrier bashing from trimmers, but have seen it on both sides, so it's a bit pot and kettle. I learnt to trim as the farriers I could get hold of just weren't up to scratch (in shoeing OR trimming in some cases) and Henry hated the nails going in, so I wanted to try him without shoes on.

All went ok with me trimming him until I moved back to mid-Surrey (very stony terrain) and got a bad back. Lack of conditioning combined with unfit pone meant soreness, so I started having shoes on during summer months and I trimmed during the winter months. Went through FOUR farriers (appalling shoeing, appalling attitude) before I found my current one about 2 years ago, now. He's more than happy with my trim (compliments me every Spring!) and I'm more than happy with his shoeing and attitude. Win-win situation!

Some farriers do get a bit lazy in their trimming, I think. Sally makes a good point about getting a conscientious and competent farrier, rather than one who has the most clients. Mine works pretty much part time and doesn't do extra horses at the expense of existing clients.

 

[amycov]

I love my farrier!

 

[dsophiea]

I use a farrier, i always have and always will. They are trained in all aspects of horses feet so why would i want to use someone who isn't.
We have a couple of liveries that use BFT, and both of the horses have been footsore, and not once have the BFT suggested putting front shoes on. hence my reason for not using them.

I really don't think it is fair to call farriers 'arrogant sh1ts', my farrier and another one i know are both kind and really care about there work. And as for 'TheFarrier', does it not say alot that he is willing to come on a horse forum and offer help and advice to anyone that has a query?

 

[martlin]

QR
I have 7 horses, mixture of shod, front shod and barefoot. I only use farrier, and only one farrier for that!
Would never change unless I was forced to and the new farrier would come recommended by the present one.
Anyway, my horses are only shod when they really need it - ie don't cope with workload barefoot.
I use farrier for trims because:
he knows what he is doing
he can tell me when he believes the horse would benefit from shoes
it's cheaper and easier to arrange than having separate people doing trims and a farrier doing shoes.

 

[ihatework]

I use a farrier irrelevant of if my horse is shod or unshod.

To be fair I have limited experience of barefoot trimmers, I have only seen a couple of examples, both of which were horrifying. One horse was hobbling for days after his trim, and both examples I saw had low heel/long toes positively trimmed for.

That said there are plenty of rubbish farriers around too. One that I used a few years back, when I was young and ignorant, lamed one of my horses through poor shoeing and foot balance.

For the last year I have been using the yard farrier who is okay, but as I know what I am looking for in a really well shod foot I have always felt uneasy and kept a close eye on my horses shoeing. Recently his apprentice has fully qualified and is taking over some of his work, the last 2 shoeing the newly qualified guy has done my horse and the quality is amazing, super balance, great heel support and brilliant stud holes! I'm swapping to him full time hopefully!

I suppose the point of my post is that there are good, bad and mediocre in any professional discipline. I am sure that there are good EP's out there, but unfortunately I would not be prepared to pay their prices for a trim wrapped up with namby pamby hand holding (I am capable of looking at my horses feet without prtty pictures and a chart completed), when I can get just as good a job cheaper with a farrier

 

[Hippona]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The hoof colour does not dictate its strength or health though

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really interesting, must be an old wives' tail I've come across, just coincidence that all the horses I've seen with really bad feet have had white or striped horn

[/ QUOTE ]

Must be....3 of my horses have had white/striped hooves......2 shoeless, one shod...all fantastic.

 

[chestnut cob]

Always used a farrier and always will.

I've used not-so-good farriers in the past (but not for long!) but even they have never made such a bad job of horse's feet as some of the disasters I have seen a BFT cause. A lady on a previous yard I was on had a horse who was more or less constantly lame and the BFT just kept telling her "he will adjust"...I was on that yard 2 years and he was still lame when I left. The worst I've ever had from a bad farrier was a horse who tripped a bit too much in front (feet left a bit too long).

We currently use a fabulous farrier who remembers every horse. My horse has shivers and the farrier is brilliant with him - it was actually him who suggested calling the vet out to him recently when he shod him and his shivers seemed worse than usual. As it turns out, my horse was diagnosed with spavin in both hocks. He does a great job, always has time to chat. I don't often see him when he does my horse, so if he's there doing something else he will take 5 mins out to explain what he did last time, why he did it...so I now know that he wants him to be left 8-9 weeks between shoeings because his feet aren't growing much, that he is going to put lateral extensions on (he and vet have had a chat since spavin diagnosis)... Can't fault my farrier at all. Plus he turns up on time, never cancels, is reasonably priced

I don't have any problem at all with Natural Horsemanship methods at all, have even done a bit of IH myself, but my farrier is so much more practial. The saying "no foot no horse" is true so I don't understand why anyone would even consider having someone out to trim their horse who has done a 5 day training course, compared to 5 years or so for their farrier

 

[amandap]

I'm an owner and my experience of 'the trim' hasn't been the same. However the Farriers I use now do trim and add a bevel to the wall which none of the other Farriers I've used do. Also I find Farriers are often more keen to say 'he doesn't need a trim' than Trimmers...

On the whole I've found it's owners who tend to 'rubbish' either Trimmers or Farriers. There are good and bad in both. The main difference I've found is that trimmers have an holistic approach whereas Farriers tend to just trim the foot and that's it. I've found that trimming is a much easier approach to understand ie. once you understand what makes a good foot and how to achieve it then all trimming and management is aimed at getting there. There is much less emphasis on a medical model with various foot diseases and this disease has this treatment.etc.
For those that are interested in learning more http://www.hoofrehab.com/

I've no idea what will happen in the future all I hope is that all of us work together to do the best for our horses rather than arguing who is better!!

 

[Alibear]

Both my horses are barefoot, one because he's retired, farrier is the one who suggested he'd be fine retired without them even though that meant he went from £120 for a very expensive specialised set to £20 for a trim.

New lad we just couldn't keep a set of shoes on him and he had very good feet so is again bare foot.

We've very lucky to have a great farrier who can shoe barefoot or shod or natural balance or specialist shoes etc , he also doesn't take offence if the vet tells us to change how a horse is being shod and happily works along side the vet to get the right results.

Really can't complain about him at all. We're luck as yard has been through 3 farriers since I've been there and all of them were just the same. (Not our fault we had to switch 1st one retired and 2nd one moved away)

I'd rather use a farrier for barefoot asI know he's had the proper training.

 

[PopStrop]

Haven't read through all of the thread yet, but in response to OP....

When I bought my mini filly last year, a friend recommended a friend of theirs who had trained as an EP in the states.
Now, I've worked alongside a fair few of my local farriers in various jobs in the past, and have seen some pretty poor attitudes amongst many of them, and some horrendous work.
So, I decided to give the EP a go.
To cut a long story short, they wrecked my horse's feet. There were some threads back in January with pics. She's been rectified to some degree by a farrier, but I am waiting on some other opinions of her feet in the next week or so.
She has very contracted feet, and I don't know if they can be improved from where they are now, current farrier says not.

Back to the EP.... Turns out my EP wasn't 'qualified' to trim developing youngsters anyway, but the people/organisation they 'qualified' with hold no responsibilty for their student's work once they've passed any courses. If they deem that an EP has done something drastic enough they will strike them off their list of 'qualified' EPs, but other than that, they just recommend that the EP attends further courses.

 

[MrsMozart]

I'm another farrier user. usually have one full shoes, one shoes in front, and one barefoot. we have shoes on those that need them and none on the one that doesn't. farrier is happy to shoe or otherwise, totally dependant on the individual horse and what we're doing with each horse.

Edited to add (in response to a reference to 'the holistic approach'): my farrier watches the horse walk up before shoeing, walk away after shoeing, and asks a ton of questions about what work we're doing/going to be doing and how the horse is going. he talks to the vet and to the back man.

 

[JS65]

I have a livery who uses a barefoot trimmer, sorry but strange is not the word!

She told me off for letting my horses eat grass and told me she has covered her fields with tarmac to stop her horses eating it as it is "equine poison"
She didn't actually say anything bad about farriers but looked like she had eaten something rotton when i said i was pro shoes.
If she hadn't left the yard when she did, i'd have chucked her off.

I'm not saying that all barefoot trimmers are like that, but she doesn't exactly inspire confidence

 

[Diesky]

I actually dont think you have got a debate but a trimmer bashing because a debate actually requires people to listen to each others point of view and weigh up the pro's and cons - i just see people getting agressive with each other which is a shame and exactly what the first post mentions trimmers doing.

I have had excellent experiences with both farriers and my DEAP; I have however had more bad experiences with farriers than good - my personal experience of farriers is that most start off very good but as they get more clients they start to rush and cut corners - NOT all farriers though, my last farrier was brilliant but I moved out of his area and it took me 6 farriers before I found a farrier who was reliable and did a good job with my horses feet. My current farrier is excellent and im really very impressed with his work - he is reliable and very good with my horse who is shod on the fronts and barefoot on her hind feet.

I looked into barefoot for several reasons but mainly as recommended by my equine bodyworker and vet as my mare was having problems coming through behind and initially we thought it was hock problems, my deap has had a reputation for getting horses sound and while she was never unsound I felt it was worth a try. Also as my youngster's feet were cracking in the dry conditions where his outer wall was flaking.

I have three horses one has always been barefoot as he is 3 and obviously never has needed shoeing, he has however been trimmed since he was 2 weeks old - we are doing 20 mins in hand road work most days and his feet have never looked better, since switching to my DEAP (who is trained - not sure where people are getting the information they arent from - i certainly looked into that before I used him, he has also published articles on the feet and is recommended by my vets. Farriers, vets and dentists are all trained but it doesnt stop there being some awful ones out there) his feet are looking fabulous - my yard owner is a die hard traditionalist and is a barefoot sceptic and they have spent some time debating the pro's and cons and while she certainly isnt converted she does accept his knowledge and experience.

My TB mare is barefoot trimmed on her hind feet and shod on her front and trimmed by my farrier - My deap has gotten rid of the seedy toe that all farriers have failed to get rid of and never once has he bashed my farrier, instead he complemented his work and in fact they work quite closely together due to both proffessionals being responsible for my mares feet. Both are proffessional enough to listen to the views of the other and engage in a relationship based on respect - if either started bitching about the other i would find it very easy to tell them unless they had a valid reason that effects my horses hoof balance/health I would not be interested. She never had a problem going barefoot on the backs but on the front my DEAP has given me pads to improve the depth of sole she lays down - these are fitted inside her shoes when we ride and my farrier has also commented on the improvement in her feet, whether I will take her front shoes off I am undecided - I certainly would like to try this and see how her hooves improve.

My third horse was imported having never had his feet trimmed in 4 years, my farrier did a brilliant job with his feet - he went off for training and I was paying for a trimmer to do his feet while he was away (40) - i wasnt happy with the shape of his feet when he came home and my DEAP is now sorting out his feet once again - the reason I used him instead of my farrier was the fact that while my farrier does a good job my trimmer is obsessed with feet - he looks at the whole foot instead of just trimming the hoof - he looks at the sole, the hoof wall the condition and shape of the frog - the foot can wear and shape itself to a certain extent and i wish I was technical enough to explain the rest of it but my horses are happy and have good balanced feet and thats all that really matters.

My DEAP charges £20- a trim - I wouldnt hesitate to go back to my farrier if I had problems with my DEAP but I am very happy with the passion he displays in improving hoof care, he has a freeze dried foot/leg that he used to explain points for his clients so they can see the inner structures of the horses hoof, he also has a dossier that he keeps to show owners the improvements which can be made, and he is happy to recommend articles to read or research to be found if needed.

Why do I use him? because everything he says he can show me how it works to improve my horse, he doesnt charge the earth although he could raise his prices significantly and still have a good client base and do less work, if I question him he doesnt get offended he just explains why or what he is doing. On top of this he is excellent with my youngster and is giving me options other than just putting shoes on.

I understand it isnt everyones cup of tea but I have seen more than enough threads on here about bad farriers to know it isnt a one sided thing - and if you get a good proffessional whether farrier or DEAP, trimmer you should hang onto them !

 

[Enfys]

...and from the other side of the Pond.

It was a huge shock as a Brit to learn that ANYONE here in Canada can do a two day course, watch a couple of videos or shoe/trim a few horses and then go out and LEGALLY sell their services as a Shoer or Trimmer without any qualifications or certification.

My wonderful farrier, who only trims my horses because they don't do enough to warrant shoes, IS certified and has done his apprenticeship etc, etc, he also competes succesfully here in Canada and the US in shoeing competitions. As my Vet said this morning "If you have a good one, kiss his arse if that is what it takes to keep him" round here the qualified chaps are very few and far between.

I can guarantee that half a dozen times a year people will call in because they see the horses and ask if I need a Trimmer! One boy (and I can call him that because he was just 18 and I am old enough to be his Mother) told me he'd been doing it all his life at home and had shod more than 50 horses! I used one chap in an emergency, useless, patronising, inefficient (4 feet = 1 hour , and a sore horse) expensive and SACKED.

I don't build my own house, I call in a Professional, the same with feet. I can take a shoe off as well as anyone else and tidy a foot up in an emergency but when it comes to anything else I pay someone who knows his stuff to do it. I don't actually CARE whether he calls himself a Trimmer or a Farrier, I DO CARE that he knows what he is doing.

A farrier, is trained to know feet and all that goes with it, regardless of whether I want shoes on or not. I would travel my horses now, rather than use someone who has done a two day course under someone who 'trained' with someone who once read a book by Strasser.

One experience of a bad Farrier, or a bad trimmer, does not mean that they are all bad, but you have to sift the wheat from the chaff and understand enough
yourself to KNOW when you have one you can trust. The most personable trimmer/shoer in the world is still crap if he's lamed your horse whilst he's making small talk.

 

[MrsMozart]

[ QUOTE ]
Lucyfer you shouldnt be trotting your horses on tarmac or concrete surfaces anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

is this a general 'shouldn't' or just Lucyfer's horse?

I ask because Dizzy has to get fit, and the Newmarket vet insists that she be able to trot for forty minutes continuously: I've explained that we only really have roads to do that much work, it's either that or our heads would be spinning from going round in circles: vet has said fine, do the trot work on the roads. For compeleness: Dizzy has 'bony irregularities' in her pelvis joint, and secondary damage to her hind suspensory ligaments.

 

[walkingman]

I was pleased to see this thead - i've spent the last few days researching BFT as my farrier and I are thinking one of mine woudl go better unshod, but I'm not sure you want a real debate judging by some of your responses.

[ QUOTE ]
I cant say i want to or that am i impressed that you felt the need to call me an arrogant sh*t to try and prove a point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, she said "I'm afraid that the way you come across just proves to me even more that farriers are arrogant sh*ts who think they are god's gift."

ie. your not doing much for the image of farriers - and i agree with her.

[ QUOTE ]
You your self have said that you think all farriers are evil

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, she said you she just said the one's in her experience weren't good. Not 'all' and not 'evil'.

For someone who said they wanted an even handed debate, you're doing a good job of doing down anyone who's pro-barefoot, even when they are being fair themselves - ie. only critising the farriers they have experience of.

You sound like youre losing customers.

 

[tabithakat64]

Would only use my farrier and I trust him, he's excellent at his job, friendly, prompt and has a wealth of knowledge.