I'd like to know people's opinions on this please....

[Kellys Heroes]

We had a seminar today at uni on "The Top Myths That Kill Pets". (This is all condensed from what I can remember!!) The red parts are my thoughts and opinions..the black bit is what the speaker was saying!

The majority to do with behaviour and the fact that people do not address the problem correctly. It can either be a "behavioural problem" or "problem behaviour".
The first can be addressed with medication but NOT addressed by trainers eg, aggression (disagree). Our GSD was aggressive with people purely because she was frightened. We worked with her ourselves, getting her out and about as often as we could often just sitting in the town centre eating chips letting people approach her (a young GSD with bat sized ears and big puppy dog eyes, who wouldnt!! ) After 3 months approx she was brilliant. We often got a GSD in at the club who hadn't been socialised and as a result, was dog aggressive. Training and socialising often improved the dog until it was aggression free.

Problem behaviour, such as jumping up can be addressed by trainers (agree).

Dogs in the family home do NOT perceive threats to their status in the family unit because they do not establish hierarchy (Strongly disagree!). Surely you only need to look at wolves and the fact that the "lowest ranking" animal feeds LAST, etc?

Dogs cannot be born dominant (not sure?) and do not understand when they are pushing their boundaries (disagree) within a family or indeed pack unit. When a dog jumps up onto your bed its at the same level as you. If it won't get down, that's challenging your status surely? And I'm sure the dog would understand what its doing? My Goldie constantly challenges my status by growling at me as I walk past her food, putting her paw on my knee and such other behaviour and I stop that right away.
(ps not saying its bad to have the dog on your bed so long as it doesn't cause problems!!)

It makes no difference if you feed a dog last, ignore it upon arrival at the home until its calm etc (disagree) I think if you have a dog which constantly challenges its status in the pack, it needs to be taught that its behaviour is unacceptable and regain your status.

There was a few other things but I can't remember them off the top of my head - just found it interesting that there was quite a lot I disagreed with and wanted to know other people's opinions. The speaker was a behavioural vet and also had qualifications in psychology, animal welfare etc. Got to add, there was also a lot I agreed with too!!
K x

ETA - The killing pets bit was because people are more likely to surrender or euthanise pets if these behavioural issues occurred and her main point was that modern vets especially in the UK (she was from Australia) aren't sufficiently equipped to deal with behavioural problems and are more likely to refer them onto vet nurses or dog trainers

 

[Spudlet]

My thoughts are, dogs are not wolves, so why do we insist on modelling our theories of communication with them on what wolves do?

I don't think it makes any difference who eats first, it is all about attitude and boundaries. I always feed Henry first, but he has to sit politely and wait before he eats, which is much more effective IMO than my eating a biscuit then letting him whale right into his dinner.

IMO dogs will push the boundaries if they think the boundaries may be flexible and it is an owners job to train the dog in where the boundaries lie. Henry will not refuse to get off the sofa because every time he has tried that he has been removed physically, kindly but firmly. So he knows there is no give there, he gets off when I say so and when he does he is praised.

 

[CorvusCorax]

The majority to do with behaviour and the fact that people do not address the problem correctly. It can either be a "behavioural problem" or "problem behaviour".
The first can be addressed with medication but NOT addressed by trainers.
Rubbish and I have seen a lot of dogs that disprove this, including my own (I was the trainer, under the guidance of three senior trainers)


Problem behaviour, such as jumping up can be addressed by trainers. Agree


Dogs in the family home do NOT perceive threats to their status in the family unit because they do not establish hierarchy. Disagree.


Dogs cannot be born dominant and do not understand when they are pushing their boundaries within a family or indeed pack unit.
Depends on the dog.

It makes no difference if you feed a dog last, ignore it upon arrival at the home until its calm etc. Depends on the dog

I do agree that too many people squeal 'dominance!!! roll him on his back! Poke him in the side! Feed him last!' for very simple things (IE people don't understand normal dog behaviour) but making big sweeping statements like that helps no one.
Most problems in dogs I see, were caused by people, either deliberately, or mostly, because they just didn't see what they were doing wrong, and I include myself in that - when a trainer pointed out to me that I was (unwittingly) causing my dog's behaviour, it was a real eureka moment.

 

[Kellys Heroes]

Sorry didn't make that clear
My dogs get fed before me (they wouldn't eat until about 10 otherwise!!) and with the GSD we never have any problems, it tends to be the Goldie so as rule of thumb the GSDs dinner gets put down first then the Goldies.
I do fuss my dogs when I get home but they understand when enough is enough - I've seen dogs who will NOT give it up and not allow their owners through the door and become aggressive when told to stop and at this point, I'd have to say there was a problem.
Same as you CC with the socialisation and twice weekly guidance from senior trainers our GSD improved no end! Also, don't understand the dominance thing - I agree too many people blame it, BUT this speaker was saying dogs don't understand how to be dominant or how they challenge their position? But I think they're well capable of trying to show us they want to rule the roost!
K x

 

[CorvusCorax]

She's clearly never had a dog come back up the lead at her....neither have I, personally....or maybe she would have fed it some pills.

 

[Kellys Heroes]

She's clearly never had a dog come back up the lead at her....neither have I, personally....or maybe she would have fed it some pills.

LOL
In some ways I could see her point - yes some people genuinely don't know how to spot problems or address them, some vets don't have the knowledge to pass on to their clients but dog trainers CAN rectify the problems she was pointing out.
And I personally wholly believe that dogs still "follow" (for want of a better phrase!) and are aware of their "pack status" within a unit, be it a pack of dogs or a family and I believe they are able to consciously challenge that status.
K x

 

[Kellys Heroes]

In fact, Tara was strongly aggressive with dogs (she is much better now) and we got sent to a behavioural vet - who prescribed us DAP - which made no difference on the GSD but gave us one very clumsy and dopy Golden Retriever!!
Her improvement has come from consistent work and training.
One thing I did agree with is she said that dogs need us to be; reliable, consistent, predictable and kind.
K x

 

[soloabe]

My thoughts are, dogs are not wolves, so why do we insist on modelling our theories of communication with them on what wolves do?

I have to agree with that.

I use to be in ceaser camp with the whole pack order thing but since studying it very closely i have come to disagree with most of those theories.

If you watch a pack of wolves and then a pack of dogs they are VERY different there social structure is different and there communication is different.

Although i do believe in some kind of pack order i don't believe that dogs consider us a part of that. They know we are not dogs why do we have to continually insist that we must be "top dog".

 

[MurphysMinder]

Daughter had lectures with a behavioural vet (wonder if its the same one) and we have had a lot of "discussions" since about it. I do agree that dogs have to respect their owners but sometimes this pack business can go totally over the top. Like you KH if my dogs were fed after us they wouldn't eat till really late some times, and they certainly would have a very irregular feed time. I do think its a good thing that vets are looking at some problems as being behavioural but like everything else you cannot just make sweeping statements.

 

[3DE]

In fact, Tara was strongly aggressive with dogs (she is much better now) and we got sent to a behavioural vet - who prescribed us DAP - which made no difference on the GSD but gave us one very clumsy and dopy Golden Retriever!!

DAP only works with lower ranking dogs. If your dog has is dominant DAP will have no effect and will sometimes make them worse. I actually use DAP with fosters to see whether any aggressive behaviour is fear based or truely dominance.

The dog fed last thing - I do agree with. You can do something as simple as having a bowl of grapes next to the dog's bowl when you are preparing their food. Eat a few before you give the dog the bowl and the dog thinks they are getting your leftovers... Don't pretend to eat their biscuits though - they're not stupid and won't be conned

The coming in through the door thing - completely ignoring the dog, I have found, is the best thing to do. If you have multiple dogs try this - separate the dogs and after half an hour reintroduce them. It will always be the submissive dogs that try to make a fuss of the more dominant dogs - you don't want to get in a situation where you fuss the dog as soon as you come through the door as you are reinforcing your own submission. If the dog greets you frantically then it is usually a good indication that they are submissive to you, but it's not polite behaviour and I always ignore until they are calm so as not to encourage them.

 

[Tinkerbee]

When I was young and impressionable I read the Dog Whisperer or something along those lines by some woman. Anyway, to 12 year old it made the most sense ever, and for a while Tink would get completely ignored when I came home until I decided she was worthy of attention, eat a cracker in front of her before feeding her etc etc.
Did sod all, she just looked confused and so I soon got converted to clicker training which was far more fun!

I agree with the whole "they're dogs not wolves..." thing and maybe some aspects of "pack training" could work with a dominant dog, I've never had the need for it.

I do however always get to go through doors/getways etc first but thats just common sense IMO.

 

[Kellys Heroes]

Of course some of it is just common sense/courtesy - you don't expect the dog to barge through a gateway pulling you through afterwards and its something I don't tolerate.
I was just very confused by some of the training comments she made also - aggression cannot be helped by dog trainers. I've had some close experience with this and it didn't seem to be the same dog after careful and consistent work.
IMO the pack thing makes perfect sense maybe not in a Caesar Milan way, but I think all animals show some characteristics of their evolution in some way or another and that dogs need that hierarchy in the home.
K x