Ideal outline for a horse, what’s your opinion?

[Pinkvboots]

He was saying riders, especially dressage riders do an excessive amount of tighter circles and turns repeatedly. And even on a good surface it puts a massive amount of pressure on one side of the horses hooves and up the leg. He said a lot of arena surfaces cause excess stress as well, if they aslightly too deep or hard. It really made me rethink how and where i school.

You really don't have to school this way I train with someone who always uses the whole school we rarely use small circles if you use your corners correctly I have learnt you don't need to circle all the time, have drank a bottle of wine so my reply might not be as coherent!

 

[Mule]

You really don't have to school this way I train with someone who always uses the whole school we rarely use small circles if you use your corners correctly I have learnt you don't need to circle all the time, have drank a bottle of wine so my reply might not be as coherent!

🍷Do you mean the flexion and bend we ask for on corners?

 

[milliepops]

You really don't have to school this way I train with someone who always uses the whole school we rarely use small circles if you use your corners correctly I have learnt you don't need to circle all the time, have drank a bottle of wine so my reply might not be as coherent!

Agreed
I do the majority of my "way of going" training on an inside track so straight lines and corners. Add circles when I think they would be beneficial. Lots of sideways to assist with engagement, supplying and straightness. I started this way when the school was always stuffed full of jumps so there was nowhere to circle anyway now the full space is available but I prefer it like this and I think I ride with more focus.

Doesn't get away from working on a surface, obv ...

 

[Pinkvboots]

Yes inside leg outside rein before the corner then they can't fall out, it's preparation for the long side but I mainly do showing but I much prefer a dressage trainer because they train you to teach the horse to carry itself.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Agreed
I do the majority of my "way of going" training on an inside track so straight lines and corners. Add circles when I think they would be beneficial. Lots of sideways to assist with engagement, supplying and straightness. I started this way when the school was always stuffed full of jumps so there was nowhere to circle anyway now the full space is available but I prefer it like this and I think I ride with more focus.

Doesn't get away from working on a surface, obv ...

I have always mainly been a show rider never really did dressage but I felt I didn't get a lot from my lessons, so I decided to go with a dressage rider and my horses have transformed there way of going, my instructor terms "show pony canter" no more they now have 3 gears collected working and extended which I had no idea of ! It's transformed my horses and my riding although I am a bit hindered as I broke my ankle last year and it's taken me so long to get back into riding, I actually had no interest for a long time but Jack my lovely instructor had completely transformed one of my horses and he is now a pleasure to ride.

 

[tristar]

sliepnir i have found this! my one horse when i lunge him will often take up an high head carriage come under himself and his head and neck drop into a lovely shape, not all the time but when he does it looks so good.

i must say i do so much in circles and tight turns and twists at times and weight bearing pirouettes yet [touches wood] have never had leg problems, but then often feel that the horse is doing it and i am justa passenger, and i tend to leave the front end alone, or ride into the movement and let it happen, if it does`nt i think the horse is set up wrong or lacking in energy to allow the movement to come to fruition, general fitness and having horses bred for the task is paramount. i have two that are bred for doma vaquera they seem to have the physical and mental aptitude for that work because they step under themselves naturally as well

 

[milliepops]

In my experience, a well trained horse does not need a rider or any gadgets to show a good outline, which basically means a true self-carriage. View attachment 26847

this is a nice relaxed looking way of going.
but it does come back to the question asked, for me, which is what is the "ideal" outline and then you have to ask the follow up question... "ideal for what"?

The way of going in your photo would not be the ideal outline in the competition arena, which is what many people think of when they start developing a horse. I'm just mentioning this because I think it would be hard to create the competition way of going without some additional means of communication with the horse... ideally a rider at the end of the reins IMO

 

[catkin]

Just musing here and thinking aloud........

should we be turning the question around here?
instead of 'the ideal outline' should we be asking whether the horse's posture wanted by the human is actually within the 'design limits' of the individual horse for that activity (let alone beneficial to the horse or at least doing no harm) ?

 

[milliepops]

the ideal outline is the one most suited to the horses stage of training, ie the outline that allows it to work in a way that encourages the horse to make further progress.

Just musing here and thinking aloud........

should we be turning the question around here?
instead of 'the ideal outline' should we be asking whether the horse's posture wanted by the human is actually within the 'design limits' of the individual horse for that activity (let alone beneficial to the horse or at least doing no harm) ?

that's what I had understood tristar's earlier post to be getting at, as well as seeing it as a training continuum.

 

[JFTDWS]

Just musing here and thinking aloud........

should we be turning the question around here?
instead of 'the ideal outline' should we be asking whether the horse's posture wanted by the human is actually within the 'design limits' of the individual horse for that activity (let alone beneficial to the horse or at least doing no harm) ?

I think that's reasonable - when you have the average novice owner trying to fiddly their cob's face and make it replicate the image of Valegro in their head, there is a huge mismatch between what's physically possible, and what is being demanded of the horse. I do think that competition dressage should focus more on the appropriateness of the horse's outline for its conformation - that horses should gain marks for their work relative to their conformation. I know that makes it less of a spectacle, and less impressive - but it might encourage people to train their horses better for the horse, and not for the ring.

(And I'm largely talking about grass roots level where you see the more extreme misunderstandings, rather than the whole contentious issue which is correctness at GP)

 

[Red-1]

My best results came (for eventing) when I had a set aside field I could use, a half hour hack away.

My arena at the time was not ideal as it was too soft in summer when dry. So, I would hack a mile on the road, 2 miles on a compacted track at trot, a bit more roadwork then onto the field. The field was slightly sloping but had the most marvellous springy old turf. Even when it was hot and dry it was springy. Even when it was wet that turf did not cut up.

I had 2 horses competing at BE Novice and it was easy. No lameness. Fitness was top notch. Also, the field was next to a school so fab training at playtime! Screeching kids R OK!

I would do some dressage but on a bigger arena within the field. I may do a figure 8, but it would have 9 circles instead of 2 (if you see what I mean, so not really a figure 8!). Then we would canter right round the 5 acres, then back to an arena size shape for a bit more, then a trot right round.

Often I had a friend or OH ride Charlie Horse, and so we would hack together, get to the field and do our own thing. So, my horses got used to walking while the other was having a gallop. Or, the field was convex, so neither were perturbed if the other went out of sight.

I would ride a dressage test on the slope, no issue.

After all that we would hack back.

A wonderful, wonderful way to school.

That set aside field was then fenced and built on. I improved my school with rubber, so it is no longer deep in summer.

The school is better, but the overall effect for my horse is for the worse.

I have sourced a canter field, but I only go around the edge. It is also flat. I could really tell the difference in the finished product. Now my circles are in the arena, nowhere is on a hillside, and the fitness is not as FAB as when had an hour of straight line hacking first.

Don't get me wrong, it is all do-able, but I do wonder if I would have got as far as I did without the schooling that I did for those years.

 

[tallyho!]

"outline".... another word that should be deleted from the horsey vocab. An arbitrary

this is a nice relaxed looking way of going.
but it does come back to the question asked, for me, which is what is the "ideal" outline and then you have to ask the follow up question... "ideal for what"?

The way of going in your photo would not be the ideal outline in the competition arena, which is what many people think of when they start developing a horse. I'm just mentioning this because I think it would be hard to create the competition way of going without some additional means of communication with the horse... ideally a rider at the end of the reins IMO

Just to turn this one around a bit, why isn’t the natural way of going a competition outline (what even is that anyway?)? It’s an ongoing battle with the FEI about why there are such horrible outlines in the competition arena exist which leads to novices trying to emulate it on unfit, undeveloped, untrained horses often with unsuitable gadgets.

Depending on what people consider is the fashionable outline directly correlates with the types of physical problems common horses have........

Surely the “outline” (whatever the fudge that means) of a horse is one that shows the horse off to its best athletic self.

 

[milliepops]

well yessssss.... but I am not sure how - for example - my welshie could do a decent canter pirouette (which we're just about arriving at) in her natural way of going... Above, say Novice, I think you have to accept that the demands of the competition test become further and further removed from a natural way of going for all but the most perfectly talented horses and therefore their natural lobbing about on the forehand with their heads at some angle or other and hindlegs out behind is not desirable nor comfortable for performing competition movements...

 

[milliepops]

I don't think you can blame a way of going as defined in FEI handbook and elsewhere for novice riders "training" their horses in a poor way.
That's either the fault of the riders or their teachers.

ETA. I think the work that has been done by BD, while not perfect, has opened up opportunities for riders to access training and competition/feedback at a lower level, it's definitely more accessible now with the likes of the Quest series etc and hopefully will encourage more people who are interested in competitive dressage to seek out decent instruction to develop their horses, rather than look for shortcuts to pull their noses in.

 

[JFTDWS]

I do think there is a middle ground between some of the (in my opinion) extremely tense and unpleasant outlines seen by horses doing piris in competition, and doing it in their entirely natural manner - I certainly prefer watching piris, and higher movements from horses trained in some of the classical schools, to many of those in competition (and that includes some which score the very highest marks). But this is why I'm so uncomfortable with competitive dressage in so many ways really.

 

[milliepops]

I think it's fair to acknowledge how very difficult it is to teach some horses to do proper dressage style count-the-steps canter piris, as opposed to their wheeling around on the back legs kinda piris. Kira is a natural at the latter, she's a napper-extraordinaire after all. But to teach her to canter up to a specific point, in a specific rhythm, in the correct bend, in balance, and collection, not behind the leg, not behind the rein, not IFV, not pulling, not on the outside shoulder, and then turn in 6 to 8 steps without stepping out but also without making it too small and then canter out in the same balance and rhythm...
all that is damn hard, and many of us will be showing our work in progress in competitions because life's too short to wait for perfection

I've had enough heartache from waiting for the perfect moment and the horse going wrong, a sad reminder of that this week as a friend has lost her horse... I'm not too proud to put my imperfect efforts in front of a judge (and anyone else who happens to watch) and I bet I'm not the only one. Just a thought.

(the issue about ethics competitive dressage and horse riding in general is one I keep in a separate part of my brain, some kind of doublethink going on for sure, personally).

 

[Mule]

If i let my horse move in his natural outline he mimics a giraffe. When I give him a long rein he mimics an anteater 😉
When he uses his body nicely he becomes balanced and actually seems happier. He doesn't even look mulish anymore 😀

 

[JFTDWS]

I think it would be better to keep this "neutral" rather than making it personal. My comments were primarily about those horses competing at the highest level, and gaining the highest marks - those horses should not be a work in progress, but an accurate representation of what the movement should look like. Otherwise, they should be gaining more realistic marks.

 

[milliepops]

I'm not being personal, I think that even at GP there will be lots of people who are still working on their horses training in the same way that numpties like me are winging it several rungs down Valegro had been doing well at GP when Carl said they were working hard on his 1 tempis, for instance (picking a horse that was scoring exceptional marks but was still a work in progress).

Or do we have a problem with the judging system... potentially opening a can of worms there. but a horse that scores 70% at GP is still only "fairly good" so in my mind it's acceptable to see some elements that aren't yet showing the movement to it's full potential?

ETA I guess from the spectator's POV the pleasure or otherwise of watching is whether you can see the development is going in a horse-positive way or not. Which is a different question again.

 

[daffy44]

It takes time for a horse to develop at GP, years really, being able to do the GP movements is just the start, the ability to develop the strength, balance etc to make the test look fluent and effortless takes a long time. So its perfectly possible to see an ongoing work in progress at GP as much as it is at elem.

 

[milliepops]

for interest, I picked up my copy of the FEI judging handbook which has a canter piri for a 7: (a precis)

precision: a little large, entry or exit not quite controlled or fluent, slight loss of straightness on approach or exit
rhythm: clear and consistent
suppleness: appears fairly supple
contact: steps into the outside rein, accepting the bit but poll not always the highest point, a little shortening of the neck
impulsion: activity needs further development
straightness: not completely straight before or after, bend could be more uniform
collection: canter during the turning phase could be more expressive, show more uphill tendency, could be more engagement and balance
submissiveness: no obvious resistance

food for thought.

 

[JFTDWS]

(picking a horse that was scoring exceptional marks but was still a work in progress).

Which is, largely my point. Why are horses which are not truly correct scoring such silly marks? As I say, this is just my opinion - but I am not comfortable with competition dressage because I don't like the perceived "ideal", and I don't like a lot of the methods people use to replicate them. I'm also not comfortable with dismissing these issues as a "work in progress" - because I don't always (indeed, often) thing they're working in the right direction. I hold BD and the FEI responsible for it, because it starts at the top and it bleeds down. I just don't like it.

 

[JFTDWS]

It takes time for a horse to develop at GP, years really, being able to do the GP movements is just the start, the ability to develop the strength, balance etc to make the test look fluent and effortless takes a long time. So its perfectly possible to see an ongoing work in progress at GP as much as it is at elem.

Yes but their marks should reflect that. As I said, if it's working at the highest level, and gaining the highest marks (9s, 10s) I would expect the movement to be correct and no longer a "work in progress".

 

[tallyho!]

Absolutely not. I think the privilege of riding a horse and understanding it’s nature and to be able to ask it to perform natural movements on demand is the aim of training (and yes I have compared them to the wild horses that still exist for now). This is how perverse dressage has got.... it thinks if it wasn’t for the training scale, horses wouldn’t look like horses. It’s not about subjugation, it’s about a dance.

 

[ycbm]

This is a very intersecting discussion. As a result of being unable to put a 20x60 on my sloping field, I ended up, unwillingly, with a 30x40. But it's been fantastic, and in future I would choose it above a 20x60. It is so much more flexible for schooling exercises, and means I can avoid constant smaller circles. When I'm in a 20m wide school, particularly on a younger horse, I feel that it is far too narrow for the good of the horse.

I'm another who schools on hacks, too. You can school anywhere. Though I do think that sometimes hacks should be to allow the horse and rider to forget about schooling and just enjoy themselves.

 

[daffy44]

Yes but their marks should reflect that. As I said, if it's working at the highest level, and gaining the highest marks (9s, 10s) I would expect the movement to be correct and no longer a "work in progress".

I agree with that, if 9s and 10s are being achieved then its reasonable to assume it is no longer a work in progress, (apart from the fact all riding is a work in progress as we are always striving to be better!) But its also possible for a very talented horse to be gaining high marks and still have a few movements that get significantly lower marks which could be called the work in progress eg if the piaffe passage gets 9s and 10s, but the tempis go to a 6.5 or 7 the final mark can still be pretty high, with the rider aware that work still needs to be done on tempis.

 

[JFTDWS]

I think it's easier sometimes to pick a horse up for some constructive work, and let it down again for relaxation on hacks, where there are natural distractions and variations in terrain etc - it's too easy to get greedy on a perfect surface and fail to give the horse enough breaks - especially with a young horse. Or maybe I just lack mental discipline

 

[tallyho!]

P.s. I’m not talking about a natural way of going to the brook for a drink and a soak or ambling from one tree to another. Dressage should aim to show a horse to its best, it’s excited, proudest self. Proud horses is what we dream of watching, for me anyway. Happy horses. I think the difference is black and white in competition.... yet it’s the precision engineered soulless ones that get the marks. If that’s what makes a person happy.......... things ARE changing let’s hope they continue to....

 

[JFTDWS]

I agree with that, if 9s and 10s are being achieved then its reasonable to assume it is no longer a work in progress, (apart from the fact all riding is a work in progress as we are always striving to be better!) But its also possible for a very talented horse to be gaining high marks and still have a few movements that get significantly lower marks which could be called the work in progress eg if the piaffe passage gets 9s and 10s, but the tempis go to a 6.5 or 7 the final mark can still be pretty high, with the rider aware that work still needs to be done on tempis.

Absolutely - I'm definitely referring to marks for individual movements, especially where 10s are given (I'm uncomfortable with the idea of perfection to be honest!). My problem is that I don't like what many judges seem to consider to be ideal - or at least, worthy of such marks at those levels. I don't expect anyone to agree with me (other than Tallyho, who, I think, does, but then, we may not agree on what actually IS ideal either!).

 

[daffy44]

Absolutely - I'm definitely referring to marks for individual movements, especially where 10s are given (I'm uncomfortable with the idea of perfection to be honest!). My problem is that I don't like what many judges seem to consider to be ideal - or at least, worthy of such marks at those levels. I don't expect anyone to agree with me (other than Tallyho, who, I think, does, but then, we may not agree on what actually IS ideal either!).

10 is "excellent" not perfect, I'm with you, perfection doesnt exsist and I'm happy with that!

As to what judges reward or not, that is a whole other debate......