If not, why not...?

We thought it had been a strange year and blame it on the lack of SUMMER! so when I read this I had a quick tot up. We have had 65 mares this year to get in foal either Frozen, chilled or to our own stallions with still 6 left to scan.
Frozen
7 IF 1st go
3 IF 2nd go
1 IF 3rd go

1 with 1 go NIF switched to chilled and still NIF but didn't in 2007 either
4 with 2 goes NIF 2 switched to chilled and IF 1st go 2 gave up
3 with 3 goes NIF (1 was Arko though!!)switched to chilled different stallions and IF 1st go

Chillled
9 IF 1st go
3 IF 2nd go
1 IF 3rd go
1 IF 4th go but no heartbeat at 30 days

4 NIF with 1 go but late ones so going next year
1 NIF with 2 goes but full of cysts and not cycling properly
2 NIF with 3 goes- 1 with Laminitus and not cycling well the other didn't last year either

To our stallions
11 IF 1 go
3 IF 2 goes
1 IF 3 goes thought it would never breed cervix practically closed up!
4 IF 1 go semen sent ou

1 NIF 3 goes- very old and cysts

48 mares so far in foal with 6 left to scan, 4 going early 2009, 2 chilled gone to stallion, 5 no hopers/time to give up.

So whether or not it is a strange year our results are fortunately not as bad as some.
 
Own mares

8 happily in foal to either Helios or Teddy

1 NIF to Helios (only had one late cycle)

1 NIF with frozen semen from Germany 2 cycles (although Chris was highly unimpressed with the quality of the semen and has recommended we don't buy anymore from that stallion.)

1 NIF had 5 cycles (thats determination!) 1 cycle of frozen from my my old stallion, 3 cycles with chilled from San Schufro and 1 cycle of chilled from Chico's Boy (because San Schufro, nor our second choice stallion was available)... given up now and will start again early next year but using own stallion! Chris can't find anything wrong with the mare
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4 of the first 5 mares scanned in foal this year all had twins, but all succesully had 1 pinched.
 
Mmm ...

I've had some mares that have been easy - and some that have been hard! We've AI'd this year - which we've hardly done before - partly own stallion's daughters, partly own stallion going lame at a critical time, partly a visiting mare or two to foal whose owners wanted AI to different stallions.

Maidens:
3 year old took first time chilled semen
2 'old' maidens visiting (14 & 16 years) - on 3rd cycle natural! Neither had fluid, both been swabbed, but both are a bit 'stressy'

Barren from last year - old mare, tried Caslicks, washout, etc. etc. for 3 cycles - very little follicular activity at all - gave up and retired her (she IS a 20 year old TB - had foaled to my stallion 4 years running until last year.)

Mares with foals at foot:

2 x 4 year olds - AI'd chilled - both took 2nd cycle
18 year old - took first time natural;
6 year old - took first time chilled
12 year old - 2nd time chilled.
11 year old - failed to cycle properly for 2 months - haemorrhagic follicles - now covered & awaiting scan.
12 year old the same - just failed to come into season - now covered.
12 year old - took 1st try chilled - gone at 21 days (she did this last year too - now AI'd again and vet thinks Regumate would be worth a try for her.)
2 older mares both failed after 2nd try chilled - 2 different stallions - both have long histories of being 'difficult'. Owner has given up on one, the other has been covered again.
One who was such a cow we couldn't cover her first time around - we never can! About to try again.
3 late foalers covered - no result yet.

So not as good as we usually do - but reasons for most. (Well there's probably reaons for the others, just don't know what they are! Owners reluctant to spend money on investigation!
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[ QUOTE ]
Did your mare get in foal this year?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes
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If yes, how many cycles did it take.

[/ QUOTE ]2
[ QUOTE ]

Has anyone shelled out loads of money, and now has an empty mare with no answers as to why she didn't get in foal?

[/ QUOTE ]Not me. It was very very cheap indeed and I've now got a round(ish) mare (but I had a very special deal)
 
Only had one to get in foal this year. Foaled 07 and not covered again. Failed on chilled with first attempt '08 at the stud, Got semen sent to my vet for second go, scanned all ok at 14 days. Either way wasn't going again due to time moving on so will scan in Oct. She is still in foal IMO.

Blame stud for missed first time due to using three inseminations and starting too soon in the cycle. They also didn't wash out or give oxy, she had fluid (swabbed clear) coming home.

To cover our bases we did chorulon and oxy at my vet and of course one insemination.
 
Call me old fashioned, but my breeding stallion runs with his mares. He's covered 5 of mine and three visiting mares all of which are in foal. Some after first covering, most by second, just one that went to thrid she was flushed and jabbed after being covered as retaining fluid and has just been scanned in with a good healthy heart beat.
 
Mare in foal? Maybe.....


Cycles? 5 so far....


If this one isn't a goer vet, stud and I have no idea what's going on (as yet). Stallion incompatability looks like a runner although she did take once, embryo grew too large, too quickly and was 'reabsorbed'.

Will know more on Monday about current attempt but may I ask a question?

Is 6mm 'too small' for a 12 - 15 day pregnancy? (I'm starting at 12 although it's 15 days since insemination as I have a theory that she had a second follicle 'pop')

Actually it's two questions
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...

If an embryo 'reabsorbs' (I know it doesn't but we understand the term!) does it get smaller but maintain shape or does it break up? Is it therefore possible that my 6mm embryo is a 'disappearing' one rather than a small 'appearing' one?

I take the point that every year is a nightmare for someone but it's very hard when one is a 'one mare' owner and it's your turn for the nightmare!
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Do you know what lol! I dont think you can beat the old fashioned way, my mare is 17 has had 3 foals in past, last one 5yrs ago, she went to a 24yo showjumper natural service caught first time again in foal, just left it to nature... The only vet fee i have incured is the scan.
 
You can't beat it, quite often i go down the field and the stallion is baby sitting the foals, playing with and cuddling them. sooo nice to see, I love the fact that my babies get the chance to be grown in a real family setting.
 
I dont think you can beat the old fashioned way

Actually, statistically speaking you can. I think I'm right in saying that AI beats natural hands down (I could be wrong), I guess that the UK is trying to disprove this though!
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Ken i think you miss read my last post, I personally enjoy my horses living as a family, living as a heard works for me. I wasn't disputing the advantages of AI.
'You can't beat it' is a personal feeling towards my set up it wasn't a critisium of AI.

I love horses to be horses, to behave as they should/ would naturally, I belive there are advantages in later life for them from at least starting life in this setting.
 
my ID X TB maiden mare failed on 4 cycles of frozen, changed to chilled from the same stallion and now in foal
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Vets fees running at £700
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with final scan & visit invoice still to come. For one mare that is a lot of dosh but being a small time occasional breeder, I suppose that isn't too bad for what has been done. Those with lots of mares will probably disagree
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One mare had a persistant folicle so once we had got rid of that took first time using chilled from Germany

2 other mares took first time using chilled from germany

I mare took on 2nd attempt chilled fomr ireland, both times she had fluid that we treated

another mare took 1st time to the same stallion from Germany

Finally got old Gerts, 1st cycle, appears to have ovulated on the way to a walk in covering and wouldn't stand for the stallion. 2nd cycle covered naturally. 3rd cycle couldn't get hold of the stud so last minute swop of stallions, AI'd but nothing. 4th cycle Ai chilled, nothing. Had a little fluid so been washed out and oxy'd both times.
5th cycle AI's chilled, and caslicked and washed out. And concieved! All looked good and healthy, however she had lost it by the heartbeat scan. Will do a biopsy at the start of next season to see if anything undetected is going on. She's now turfed out with the babies and chilling.
 
silversons that sounds like bliss... I love to watch animals in natural family groups! Ken, im sure your right, just for me personally i wanted to avoid as many vets fees as possible, and knowing that my mare has always been very fertile i was pretty confident i didnt need a vet contantly checking for folicles etc, so i really wanted the natural service if poss as she is very easy to tell when she is in season! Bingo, it worked!
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I think part of the problem, is that many breeders don't know about breeding. That is to say, that they don't understand about the cycle and what is required.

I have always been amazed that there are NO threads about teasing mares. Teasing is SOP for me. Every mare gets teased everyday until we know what they are doing, we keep strict records of their cycles, and when we believe the vet needs to come out, she comes out. If you want to save money, educate yourselves.
 
Oh Ken thats a little harsh, I keep a record book for all three of our stallions and mares covered. Even with the boy that runs with his mares i keep a very close eye on what is happening within the heard.
our other PRE covers in hand and mares are teased daily when due in season and again detailed records are kept. The difference is the vets are only involved when nessacary and we do speak regually with them through the year even when not needed. They are very supportive of our breeding program and are always available to help.
 
I also think that is a little harsh as although we AI a majority (TB's have to be natural covered) we still use teasing as a very important part of our stud work.
Having a good teaser is crucial in my mind as they can tell you an awful lot even if the mare isnt responding.
I have two mares that dont show at all anything one way or the other they will just stand and look at the stallion with no response but fortunately he will tell us when they are ready.
For me one of the biggest problems with british breeders is mares that have been badly prepared to be bred eg just had an injury so chucked out in the field with no rugs on and expected to cycle or coming to the stud in poor condition and expecting everything to be ok.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Call me old fashioned, but my breeding stallion runs with his mares

You're old fashioned
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[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. Mine all run together, no problem getting the mares in foal, my only problem is with twinning. All three of my own mares scanned with twins first time showed only a single at second scan.
 
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I have always been amazed that there are NO threads about teasing mares. Teasing is SOP for me. Every mare gets teased everyday until we know what they are doing, we keep strict records of their cycles, and when we believe the vet needs to come out, she comes out. If you want to save money, educate yourselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

My stallion is FAR better than any vet at telling WHEN a mare is ready (after all, his life depends on him getting it right!) I had one of the top stud vets in the country here last year scanning when my vet was away - and he told me two mares were ready to cover and I should cover them that day! Raj begged to differ - he covered one 2 days later and the other 3 days later - both got in foal!

We scan when a visiting mare first arrives - to check stage of cycle and to map any cysts, and will PG is the mare isn't close to coming in. We'll also scan if Raj can't get a suitable response from a mare within the time frame we expect (referred to as a WTF scan - work it out!
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) Otherwise, I rely on Raj.

This is his - "forget it Mum - she's NOT ready - can I go back to my haylage now please" pose.

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Was just looking through my vet's bills and found my best mare actually cost me less than £60 - a scan after foaling to check all was well, covered on foal heat, one 14 day scan, one 28 day scan - job done. That's pretty standard for her - wish they were all so easy!
 
Educate myself... ok, but i have an old mare who has caught first time to an old stallion... I know my mare better than anyone, and sometimes good old common sense comes in to it, you are the one who is always raving on about vets ripping everyone off, i would say i was perfectly well educated in this one thankyou very much
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is that many breeders don't know about breeding

I think the "many" word should have been the give away there. If you are not one of those, then you don't qualify as a "many". It's not at all harsh, look at those responded: people who have their own stallions and do it the good old fashioned way. Therefore you have to tease. What I don't understand is breeders who rely solely on a vet for everything, where a small amount of education (it's all in a book), can save a fortune and probably help increase the chances of getting a mare pregnant.
 
3 of our own mares and all in foal.

One took 2nd time, same stallion both times (with hindsight I think we inseminated her too early the first time - for her)

2nd one - 3 inseminations, the third time was a different stallion, so first time with that stallion.

3rd one - the same as the 2nd one.
 
We don't tease as such as all our covering is done AI and the stallions don't need a mare for collecting from off the dummy. So we watch the mares closly in the field and they usually show more to their friends or the geldings/young colts over the wall than they will to the stallion they don't know(except the real flirts).
Natural is all well and good if you have easy mares but after several near does for one of our stallions we decided it was too dangerous for him, us and foals so now we stick to collecting and inseminating and would not dream of doing it the old fashioned way. We do PG and scan a lot but this shortens the time the mares are with us and saves the mare owners money on livery fees. Our vets charge £230 inc for the whole season for visiting mares for as many goes as it takes and I don't think that is unreasonable or a rip off!
 
This thread presents some very interesting information... some serious failings in several areas I think... Am going to stick my thinking cap on
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I was thinking about the 3 factors and how important they are... (Mare/stallion/vet(or breeder))....

If reproductive efficiency = stallion efficiency x mare efficiency x vet/breeder efficiency:

then if all factors are 90% efficient, then the overall efficiency will be 72.9%

but if all factors fall to 70% efficiency (which you might think would be an acceptable level), then overall efficiency will be 34.3%!!!

Stallion-mare incompatibility seems to get blamed quite a lot, but I have a feeling it may be more down to how semen is handled when it is sent out chilled... or that stallion subfertility is ignored by studs, rather than being dealt with. Incompatibility is rare... so to find so many people on one forum who seem to have had this problem starts to ring alarm bells for me.

I also note that VERY few vets carry out full breeding soundness examinations for mares at the beginning of the season... it's such a false economy to not do this!

Perhaps, I might adjust the breeding efficiency formula, as follows:

Breeding efficiency = (stallion efficiency x stud efficiency) x (mare efficiency x vet efficiency)

One last thing - the point of the thread isn't to start a discussion of AI vs in hand vs pasture breeding. If you have a stallion and breed your own, or the ideal stallion for your mare is local and available, then pasture/in hand is fine. If you don't, or want to use distant or dead stallions, then AI is the only viable solution... and it's important that we all try to make sure we are getting the best efficiency from our AI programmes.
 
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