If someone just says 'loose ring snaffle'..

bj666 said:
Yes it does.
Click to expand...

NO, it doesn't!

china said:
I do agree with you on one thing though! (preparing to be shot down!)
That the single jointed goes downwards onto the tongue! if you put the bit across your forearm at the angle the horses tongue would be at and then pull on it at the angle the reins would be at (or even better put reins on it and do it!) it can only point downwards while you are on top! You would have to have a bit far to big for the horse mouth to get enough angle on it whilst pulling for it to hit the roof of the mouth or like you say have the rein over the head and be pulling at a completely different angle!
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't!!!!!

If the horse goes around with it's nose in the air then yes but it doesn't. If it's in an outline, then the angle of the bit to your hand makes the bit swivel, places the nutcracker action on the bars and the joint hits the palate. When you next tack up, squeeze the reins as if you were riding, and stick a finger in the mouth and feel where the joint goes. I did this when I was 8 doing my BHS with hundreds of other kids!

The only way you could make it stay on the tongue, is if you use a slotted fixed ring and the cheekpeice and reins were fixed, with or without a curb.

It really is very simple. How people get it wrong I don't know!

KristmasKatt said:
Bj666 hope you got a refund on that hitting course!
Click to expand...

I'm sure she meant bitting course... :D
 
Last edited:
Am i the only one that understands what bj is trying to explain while refering to the mouthpiece (loosering vs eggbutt)... its just someone elses interpretation of it.. it really isnt that hard. Why people cannot just step outside the box for 2 minutes i just dont know.

i think what she is trying to say is that she sees a loose ring snaffle as a loose ring with what she calls an eggbutt mouth piece. just as you would find on a plain eggbutt snaffle. just plain and simple with a single joint. let be honest how many fandangled mouthpieces do you get on loose rings these days! feel fre to correct me bj if i have it wrong.
 
china said:
Am i the only one that understands what bj is trying to explain while refering to the mouthpiece (loosering vs eggbutt)... its just someone elses interpretation of it.. it really isnt that hard. Why people cannot just step outside the box for 2 minutes i just dont know.

i think what she is trying to say is that she sees a loose ring snaffle as a loose ring with what she calls an eggbutt mouth piece. just as you would find on a plain eggbutt snaffle. just plain and simple with a single joint. let be honest how many fandangled mouthpieces do you get on loose rings these days! feel fre to correct me bj if i have it wrong.
Click to expand...
Ok I'll correct you.
Eggbutt refers to the rings not the mouthpiece, you can any number of different mouthpieces with either eggbutt or loose rings (or D rings, full cheeks, hanging cheeks, half cheeks, Fulmer & I know there are more) and still be a snaffle.
 
I understand completely what bj is trying to say, however she is wrong.

Eggbutt doesn't = single jointed.

You can get just as many different mouthpieces on an eggbutt cheek as you can on a loose ring (or full cheek, or any other mouthpiece)

:)
 
this is one of my pet hates:o

eggbutt and loosering are types of cheek/rings at the side. I wish people wouldnt refer to a single joint in a mouthpeice as eggbutt:o Ive heard it a lot though:rolleyes:

to me a simple snaffle is either of the above cheeks (EGGBUTT or LOOSERING) with a french link, single joint or lozenge..... lol, i dont think there IS such a thing as a 'simple' snaffle anymore.
 
A loose ring is just that; a loose ring. It allows a more precise contact than an eggbutt (less hauling) and young horses can play with the bit/become accustomed to it.
 
rhino said:
I understand completely what bj is trying to say, however she is wrong.

Eggbutt doesn't = single jointed.

You can get just as many different mouthpieces on an eggbutt cheek as you can on a loose ring (or full cheek, or any other mouthpiece)

:)
Click to expand...

Praise the lord!!

How is this hard?? I am by no means an expert but knew loose ring, eggbutt, fulmer, pelham, kimblewick and the likes by about age 8.

To answer the OP question, I would assume a 'loose ring snaffle' to be either single jointed or french link.

If a horse was then in a loose ring waterford, I would somehow feel a little mislead......

If you said snaffle mouthed I would assume the same.
 
rhino said:
I understand completely what bj is trying to say, however she is wrong.

Eggbutt doesn't = single jointed.

You can get just as many different mouthpieces on an eggbutt cheek as you can on a loose ring (or full cheek, or any other mouthpiece)

:)
Click to expand...

Oops, even I can't get it right! Please substitute 'mouthpiece' in the brackets to 'cheekpiece'. Obviously. :o :eek:

:)
 
Even though the eggbutt shape itself is formed as the mouthpeice, it is part of the ring as brandy & rhino are trying to say.

It's purpose is to stop the ring sliding through and was invented for racing - as many bits are e.g. fulmer, and also bit keepers were invented to stop this.

It is wrong to describe it as a mouthpiece.

The mouthpeice may be:
single-jointed
double jointed with a bean/lozenge
chained
balled
barrelled
ported
curved
wobbly
straight
keyed
covered in vulcanite
covered strange white stuff they call mullen-mouth
made of lots of different types of metal

There are no eggbutt mouthpeices and if you went to a saddlery and asked that, you would get a funny look. You need to ask for eggbutt cheekpeice.
 
This is what I'd expect to see
GermanHollowMouth.jpg
 
A single jointed snaffle DOES NOT dig in to the roof of the mouth, unless the action is initiated from below eg - leading in a single jointed bit or when the reins are through a running martingale and the horses head goes up high enough to affect the angle of the reins. Think of how the bit in the horses mouth - the joint is facing downwards - the reason a snaffle is fitted higher in the mouth than an unjointed - because the joint hangs downwards it is easier for the horse to draw it's tongue back and get the tongue over the bit.

With a double jointed bit you increase the pressure on the tongue and also change the angle of pressure on the bars.

y1TwistedLoopReins1thumb.jpg
If you have these types of reins - then yes you can definately affect the lie of the mouthpiece if they have been fitted to a bit such as shown in the picture. (The rings are rigidly fixed to the mouthpiece) They lock in place and will not slide around the ring. These sort of reins should only ever be used with a loose ring bit.

With buckle or billet reins they slide around the bit ring with the change of angle of the reins
 
if your horses has a fleshy tongue or a low palate then yes it hits the roof of the mouth which suggests it is not the right bit for that horse.

Taken from two different sites,
"Many people mistakenly think that the snaffle works by the joint's putting pressure on the roof of the mouth. Not so. The jointed-mouth snaffle bends in the middle and presses downward on the tongue, as well as exerting pressure on the bars and lips."

This one is from a vet study paper where they took x ray images.

"When tension was applied to the reins, the mouthpiece pressed more deeply into the tongue, thereby causing the joint to move away from the palate."

we will agree to disagree. :-)
 
Well I thought that was interesting and not what I'd always believed, so I looked up 'snaffle nutcracker action' on video and got Tchaikovsky and a lot of people in tutus. Is there a link? (I mean to the bit video)
 
trina1982 said:
Where is the xray? Bit confused.com :o

Trina x
Click to expand...


There are several but you need to open the relevent link on the site to the article.

I had a look last night and felt that the bits were not really fitted correctly in the firstplace so the Xrays were not a true reflection of what happens.

It also depends on the angle of the head to the position of the reins, there were also several different bits used.
 
Evelyn said:
There are several but you need to open the relevent link on the site to the article.

I had a look last night and felt that the bits were not really fitted correctly in the firstplace so the Xrays were not a true reflection of what happens.

It also depends on the angle of the head to the position of the reins, there were also several different bits used.
Click to expand...

Not fitted correctly??? Pray tell how one fits a loose ring snaffle so the joint never touches the palate...?
 
Evelyn said:
There are several but you need to open the relevent link on the site to the article.

I had a look last night and felt that the bits were not really fitted correctly in the firstplace so the Xrays were not a true reflection of what happens.

It also depends on the angle of the head to the position of the reins, there were also several different bits used.
Click to expand...

Ah, i was looking at the link tallyho posted on her quote and it was just lots of bits. I wondered if i had missed a link on that page, but i guess she meant the page i posted originally.

Interesting article, but was really only highlighting mouth behaviour at stand still, and i don't think there was any rein tension (?). Also interesting to see that they chose to put a flash on.

I watched a video on you tube last night, dentistry for thinking riders (i think it was called) by an australian horse vet. It was really interesting but some of the mouth injuries were quite nasty. Worth a look for anyone interested in this type of stuff.

Trina x
 
^^ thanks Trina... that rests my case...

Here, have a look at this too if anyone is in doubt. Just think if you were to be doing dressage, with a vertical head carriage... the bit is now being manipulated from "below" and so evelyn is still wrong about it not hitting the roof of the mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msnjZP6Zu8k
 
tallyho! said:
^^ thanks Trina... that rests my case...

Here, have a look at this too if anyone is in doubt. Just think if you were to be doing dressage, with a vertical head carriage... the bit is now being manipulated from "below" and so evelyn is still wrong about it not hitting the roof of the mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msnjZP6Zu8k
Click to expand...

No Evelyn has always said that if the action of the rein is from below the straight line to the riders hand the joint will hit the roof of the mouth - as in when the horse throws it's head up with a running martingale on.


With a verticle head carriage the line of the rein is either horizontal to the ground or upwards from the bit to the riders hand - The head would have to be ABOVE the riders hand to have a downward action.

What is the rule about the line 'Straight line, elbow, hand, horses mouth' and to maintain the same contact if the horses head goes up the riders hands should also go up to maintain the 'Straight line, elbow, hand, horses mouth'.

Also consider that video a very extreme end of poor riding!
 
Last edited:
Evelyn said:
No Evelyn has always said that if the action of the rein is from below the straight line to the riders hand the joint will hit the roof of the mouth - as in when the horse throws it's head up with a running martingale on.


With a verticle head carriage the line of the rein is either horizontal to the ground or upwards from the bit to the riders hand - The head would have to be ABOVE the riders hand to have a downward action.

What is the rule about the line 'Straight line, elbow, hand, horses mouth' and to maintain the same contact if the horses head goes up the riders hands should also go up to maintain the 'Straight line, elbow, hand, horses mouth'.

Also consider that video a very extreme end of poor riding!
Click to expand...

Evelyn is now backtracking and still making no sense.

How hard is it to see that if the horses head is vertical, the line from elbow to reins to bit makes the joint of the snaffle touch the palate. You can see that very clearly from the x-ray, and the dentists illustrations. It matters not how many wrinkles you put on the lips, the snaffle still folds the same.

The roof of the mouth touches the tongue when the mouth is closed so infact whatever you do, the joint is touching it ALL the time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top